Proof from Eastern Fathers o

[lankyknight1990]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

 

[Aramis]

On item 1: Evidence of (but not, per se, proof)
In Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem: St. Peter’s statement ends the discussion on circumcision. They move on to other business. Later, St. James decrees as St. Peter had Spoken earlier. Remember, this was a Local council, called by St. James, and dealing with a local matter, but one that also had implications elsewhere.

St. Peter speaks of his own authority to teach truth in verse 7.

On Item 3: See the Chatechism of the Catholic Church: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

The actual dogmatic definition, however, lacks the reference to fire…

The Compendium of the Catechism actually includes the dogmatic version:
210. What is purgatory?

1030-1031
1054

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

1. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?

1032

Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Mark77]

**LankyKnight1990,

Welcome & God Bless you in your search for the fullness of the Truth of our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ!

On item 6: Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome;

Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham, in ‘Beginning Apologetics 1 (www.catholicapologetics.com) say;

“Please note that the Early Church always accepted the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Church. Around AD 80, the Church of Corinth deposed it’s lawful leaders. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome.

St Irenaus, who was taught by St. Polycarp (a disciple of St. John the Apostle), stresses that Christians must be united to the Church of Rome in order to maintain the Apostolic Tradition. He then lists all the bishops of Rome up to his time.

St. Irenaeus was Bishop of Lyons from about AD 180-200. He is considered one of the greatest theologians of the immediate post Apostolic period. In his work Against Heresies, St. Irenaeus makes the following statement about the Church of Rome & the successors of St. Peter: “…the successions here of the bishops of the greatest & most ancient Church known to all, founded & organized at rome by two of the most glorious Apostles, Peter & Paul, that Church which has the tradition & the faith comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that it is in her that the faithful have maintained the Apostolic Tradition” (William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970)3,3,3; Jurgens #211)

St. Irenaeus then goes on to name all the Popes succeeding Peter up to his time—12 in all. (3,3,3 Jurgens # 211)

For 250 years the Roman emperors tried to destroy Christianity through persecution. In the first 200 years of Christianity, every Pope but one was martyred-the Romans certainly knew who the head of the Church was!”

A Roman emperor’s greatest fear was a rival to the throne. Never the less, the Emperor Decius, one of the harshest persecutors of the early Christian Church, made the following remark: “ I would far rather receive news of a rival to the throne than that of another Bishop of Rome.” Decius said this after he executed Pope Fabian in AD 250. (Christian History, Issue 27, entitled “Persecution in the Early Church” (1990, Volume IX, no. 3, 22)

St. Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110) appointed by St. Peter also recognizes Rome’s Primacy.
**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Mark77]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

**Also, the Catholic Answers home page has many wonderful answers for your questions in their faith tracts located in the “library” (upper bar on home page) or found here;

catholic.com/library/faith_tracts.asp

Good Hunting!**

mark

 

[InspiritCarol]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

Nice summation. Thanks.
I can help you on #2 Thanks to “Thyme” who posted this link on another thread:
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).

The site is: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Also from the same thread came this link to a very moving video about Mary’s role in salvation.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Hope this helps.

 

[Pakesh]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

I notice that you are Oriental Orthodox. We have a fellow poster here, Mardukm, who was Oriental Orthodox and is now Oriental Catholic. Mardukm is extremely knowledgeable, and I hope Mardukm joins this post. If not, perhaps you could message him? Sorry I didn’t answer your questions, but I know Mardukm would be a great asset.
God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

Dear Friend,

I’ll leave the “Patristic Proofs” to others, but wanted to share some thoughts on the points you raise. From my POV, the issues you raise are largely ones that you already believe in as an OO and as an Oriental Catholic, you need not change what you already believe.

With respect to purgatory, the Eastern Churches already pray for the dead very assiduously. They don’t use the word “purgatory” and I’ve not heard it used in the EC parishes I’ve frequented for a very long time. The OO eschatology about life after death is the same as that of the RC Church. If you have no problem accepting the OO theology, then there is nothing further to add to what you already believe should you wish to become an Oriental Catholic.

The same is true of the Immaculate Conception. That is a Latin dogma that is completely unnecessary in Eastern Mariology. We have always believed her to be All-Holy and Immaculate etc. The Latins have nothing to teach us Easterners about devotion to Mary or her titles and privileges.

As for the Filioque, again a Latin doctrine that has no place in the Christian East. Your future Oriental Catholic parish probably won’t use it in reciting the Nicene Creed, my parish doesn’t - let’s forget about it. Let the Latins be Latins, and let us be what we are.

The only other point is the supremacy of the pope of Rome. The Eastern Fathers have always believed the Church to be infallible since the Holy Spirit is her guide and Christ is her Head. In the first millennium, the Church was united around the Bishop of Rome, successor to the Apostles, as the First Bishop in Christendom. That was underscored especially by the East at the various Councils. When the Pope, in union with all the patriarchs and bishops of the world, got together to proclaim a doctrine in an ecumenical council - that doctrine was infallible indeed and universally binding on all Christians. Ultimately, the style of the exercise of papal leadership can vary. Papal jurisdiction is shared by the Patriarchs of the various Eastern Catholic Churches that have the right to rule themselves, protect their liturgical and canonical traditions etc. And the only two times that papal infallibility was exercised, in the definition of the two Marian dogmas, these were dogmas that added nothing to the Eastern Christian understanding of the Mother of God. Absolutely nothing that they didn’t already liturgically celebrate.

To be in union with the pope is to at least do what the Eastern Churches did in the first millennium.

All that is good enough for me and for a number of friends who found those arguments sufficient to come into union with Rome.

May God bless you on your way!

Alex

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Lankyknight,

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

You’ve come to the right place to find out about the Catholic Faith.

I can answer you in detail in a few days. For now, I would like to ask – when you write of “Pre-Schism,” are you referring to the Chalcedonian Schism, or the Great Schism between the Latin and Greek Churches?

Also, may I ask which Church of the Oriental Orthodox communion you are from? It might help us gain a better perspective and provide better answers. You can PM me the answer, if that is more appropriate for you.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[militantsparrow]

I’ve tried to find patristic evidence for papal infallibility and supremecy myself. I am anxious to read the responses.

 

[InspiritCarol]

I’ve tried to find patristic evidence for papal infallibility and supremecy myself. I am anxious to read the responses.

Hey-

Better late than never.

Turns out there’s too much for me to type here on these topics.

Check out “The Fathers Know Best” amazon.com/Fathers-Know-Best-Jimmy-Akin/dp/1933919345/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299396794&sr=1-1

There’s a whole section broken out into:
The Catholic Church
Apolostic Succession
Peter the Rock
Peter’s Primacy
Peter in Rome
Peter’s Sucessors
The Authority of the Pope

i’m talking tons of stuff.

If I were a better typist I’d give you some samples.

Sorry - … but they are definitely out there.

 

[piltdown_man]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

Hello,

This is something that I noticed about your post: You can accept the idea of indulgences (point #5), but you would like proof for the idea of Purgatory (point #3). I hope that someone will correct me if I am wrong, but indulgences are works and prayers which allow a person to receive a decrease of the temporal punishment due to sins that are already forgiven. So if you can accept indulgences, then shouldn’t you also, logically, believe in the place where that temporal purification will occur, i.e., Purgatory?

I only point this out because perhaps in light of a deeper understanding of the exact nature of indulgences, the concept of Purgatory might not be so hard to realize.

May God bless you and grant you a Holy Lent, and may He also bless you on your journey.

 

[inquiring_abc]

Im sorry to put it so plainly, but as I am interested in investigating the possibility of Rome I must know I am making the Right choice for my salvation.

the Seven Theological Disagreements the Orthodox have with the Catholic Communion are as follows:

1. Infalliability of the Pope
2. Immaculate Conception of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. Marriage of Non-Christians into the Church (Not a problem for me, I can accept)
5. Indulgences (I can accept also)
6. Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome (Can accept also, although would like Ancient Evidence)
7. The Filioque (Which is just political terminological)

What I am asking for is Proof from the Pre-Schism Eastern Fathers for numbers 1,2, and 3. Thankyou and pray for me, as I am a Sinner.

I’d be interested in all the above also (including 4, 5, 6 and 7)