Proof Joseph Smith, Jr. was a prophet?

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The Dead Sea Scolls makes reference to a “Council of the Community.” This may be a prophecy rather than a mere description of how the community of Essenes at Qumran were organized. What follows is the pertinent excerpt.

“[There shall be] in the council of the community twelve men and three priests, perfect in all that has been revealed from all the Law, for the practice of truth and righteousness and justice and love of mercy and walking humbly each man with his neighbour, for the preserving the faith in the land witha lowly disposition and a broken spirit …” It continues further, however I feel that is enough.

In 1835, Joseph Smith, Jr. wrote in the Doctrine & Covenants (104:11 b-d), the following:

“Of the Melchisedec priesthood, three presiding high priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the church. The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses in the name of Christ, in all the world; thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. And they form a quorum equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.”

Later Smith adds, “a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchisedec, and were righteous and holy men,” showing that a “three man First Presidency” was not novel concept and that Smith and the Doctrine & Covenants have a link with the Essenes at Qumran.

Bear in mind, the passage from the D&C is from 1835; Smith nor Solomon Spaulding (who may be the true author of the Book of Mormon, or the work upon which it is based) had the benefit of knowing about the Dead Sea Scrolls that were not discovered until after the Second World War.

As one Mormon scholar wrote of this theory, “Qumran points forward, and the Doctrine and Covenants points back, to exactly the same institutional form.”

I must admit, this has me stumped. What do you say? (name removed by moderator)ut from any biblical scholars or experts on Judaism would be particularly welcome. Thanks.
 
rather than just have us accept these “interpretations” would you please provide verifiable references? which scroll(s) specifically and what specific part, what the original said and who translated it.

nice troll though…here’s one back…if this was really the original structure that Jesus built then why doesn’t the Book of Mormon say so?

Sidney Rigdon’s D&C didn’t present “unknown” concepts so much as fads of the time with his own personal “spin” on them.
 
majick275 said:
rather than just have us accept these “interpretations” would you please provide verifiable references? which scroll(s) specifically and what specific part, what the original said and who translated it.

nice troll though…here’s one back…if this was really the original structure that Jesus built then why doesn’t the Book of Mormon say so?

Sidney Rigdon’s D&C didn’t present “unknown” concepts so much as fads of the time with his own personal “spin” on them.
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Twelve men and three priests doesn’t prove anything. And the Essenes were not a Christian community anyway were they?

And it certainly doesn’t prove the rubbish that Joseph Smith promoted called the “Book of Mormon.”
 
I’m a little confused on what references you did provide. here is what the current D&C says:

D&C 104:

11 It is wisdom in me; therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship;

I would also point out the problems of using Essene practices to support Mormon practices. this is from a pro-LDS source:

LDS Perspective

by Robert A. Cloward ( lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/scripture/dead_sea_scrolls.html )

…However, the similarities are counterbalanced by radical differences between Essene practices and the teachings of Jesus Christ, of Paul, or of the Church in modern times. Notably, the Essenes taught their adherents to hate their enemies. Their sect was strict and exclusive. Their ideas of ritual cleanness effectively barred women from the temple and from the temple city of Jerusalem. Such Essene doctrines are opposite to later Christian and LDS teachings. Similarities between Essenism and Christian or LDS concepts should therefore be explained as a dispersion of ideas among groups that share ancient connections rather than as evidences of more intrinsic relationships.
 
Doctrine and Covenants has an interesting section on polygamy. How many wives did Smith have and how many were married to men he sent off on far away missions? Did the Essenes do that?
 
First, I am not a Mormon. I am a former RLDS member but am Catholic now. I am not pro-RLDS/pro-Book of Mormon, etc. I am trying to figure out how to respond to a book that recently came into my hands that is frustrating me a little.

Second, I do not wish to enter into debates about polygamy.

Third, the Doctrine and Covenants referenced is the RLDS version and is likely to be different from the LDS version.

Regarding the scrolls, I myself haven’t studied the scrolls enough to say what part the excerpt cited is to be found. The Essenes seem to have been a radical Jewish sect. The author of the book I’m reading suggests that the excerpt from the scrolls I gave are prophetic about how the ‘true church’ will be organized. The RLDS obviously think they are the fulfillment of that prophecy on this particular point. The coincidence is almost too convenient were it not for the fact that Smith et al. didn’t have the benefit of the Qumran texts in 1835. That, however, is evened out by the helpful source majick275 provided. The Book of Mormon didn’t set out how the Mormons were to organize the restored church, it’s only a ‘history.’ It is the D&C that is supposed to be a sort of instruction manual for the restored church. All the revelations therein, given rather conveniently to Joseph Smith, Jr. alone, and his successors.

It’s bizarre. But ocassionally my Book of Mormon believing friends present me with some tidbit that I don’t have a ready response for.

With God’s help, I am able to answer most of their attempts to discredit the Catholic Church as the true church. Thanks again for your help. 🙂
 
I’m a Baha’i and normally wouldn’t comment on this but it perked my interest a little…

Here’s a source doc for the “Council of Coimmunity”

vanderbilt.edu/AnS/religious_studies/RLST-109/Community.htm

We have no way of knowing though how the actual Qumran community was really set up …but off hand I would suggest it is being highly selective to pick out one item of similarity and then to suggest it implies some kind of verification of truth of the Doctrine and Covenants…
  • Art
 
cestusdei said:
Doctrine and Covenants has an interesting section on polygamy. How many wives did Smith have and how many were married to men he sent off on far away missions? Did the Essenes do that?
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I thought the Essenes were celibate!!!

That sneaky Joseph Smith…😦
 
Man, how desperate does a religion have to be to grasp at straws like this? Trying to prove themselves to be the true church by citing a one-sentence coincidence from a non-Christian source!
Arch Stanton:
showing that a “three man First Presidency” was not novel concept and that Smith and the Doctrine & Covenants have a link with the Essenes at Qumran.
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The Dead Sea Scrolls quote they cited to you says nothing about a “First Presidency”; it merely mentions “three priests”. What does this have to do with Mormonism? Nothing.
As one Mormon scholar wrote of this theory, “Qumran points forward, and the Doctrine and Covenants points back, to exactly the same institutional form.”
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It is hardly surprising that a Jewish community would have 12 leaders, symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Your cite says nothing about a First Presidency or any other “institutional form” related exclusively to Mormonism.

This whole “theory” is just a red herring.

God bless,
Paul
 
So, the similarities between the Doctrine & Covenants (RLDS) and the Dead Sea Scrolls regarding the council of the community is just a coincidence?

By the way, it is a council of 15 (3 priests and 12 men in the dead sea scrolls; 3 high priests (presidents) and 12 apostles in the D&C), not 12.
 
That’s not what it says at all. It says there will be a council of 12 men, and there will also be three priests.

The only way your reading would work is if the priests were not men. Go back and read the sentence again. The Qumran community were Jews, and therefore did not have female priests. The priests were obviously not a part of the council.

Go back and read the sentence again. The premise that the Mormons implanted in your mind is blinding you to a plain reading of the text.

So the only similarity between Qumram and the D&C is the council of 12. Since they were both using the number 12 from biblical sources (Qumran from the OT and Mormons from the NT), it is hardly surprising that this coincidence would arise.

So yes, it is just a coincidence.

God bless,
Paul
 
Is there a long line of Joseph Smiths going back to the first? If there is why isnt each Joseph the president of the LDS? I would expect to at least have seen Joseph Smith III or something. All I have seen is Joseph Smith Jr and Joseph Fielding Smith.
 
Arch_Stanton said:
The Dead Sea Scolls makes reference to a “Council of the Community.” This may be a prophecy rather than a mere description of how the community of Essenes at Qumran were organized. What follows is the pertinent excerpt.

“[There shall be] in the council of the community twelve men and three priests, perfect in all that has been revealed from all the Law, for the practice of truth and righteousness and justice and love of mercy and walking humbly each man with his neighbour, for the preserving the faith in the land witha lowly disposition and a broken spirit …” It continues further, however I feel that is enough.

In 1835, Joseph Smith, Jr. wrote in the Doctrine & Covenants (104:11 b-d), the following:

“Of the Melchisedec priesthood, three presiding high priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the church. The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses in the name of Christ, in all the world; thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. And they form a quorum equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.”

Later Smith adds, “a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchisedec, and were righteous and holy men,” showing that a “three man First Presidency” was not novel concept and that Smith and the Doctrine & Covenants have a link with the Essenes at Qumran.

Bear in mind, the passage from the D&C is from 1835; Smith nor Solomon Spaulding (who may be the true author of the Book of Mormon, or the work upon which it is based) had the benefit of knowing about the Dead Sea Scrolls that were not discovered until after the Second World War.

As one Mormon scholar wrote of this theory, “Qumran points forward, and the Doctrine and Covenants points back, to exactly the same institutional form.”

I must admit, this has me stumped. What do you say? (name removed by moderator)ut from any biblical scholars or experts on Judaism would be particularly welcome. Thanks.
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Isn’t it obvious to you yet that Joseph Smith used the info he had on christianity to set up an opposing structure? Now what do we call the kind of guy who does this? An AntiC…
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Is there a long line of Joseph Smiths going back to the first? If there is why isnt each Joseph the president of the LDS? I would expect to at least have seen Joseph Smith III or something. All I have seen is Joseph Smith Jr and Joseph Fielding Smith.
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Joseph Smith III was a president of the RLDS church. Since then they have had many smith “heirs” but most were not named Joseph.
 
The current “prophet” and president of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Remnant LDS) is a descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr.

I’m not sure why PaulDupre brought up female priests. The Remnant LDS does not have female clergy. Other Mormon denominations do. At any rate, I wasn’t implying the Qumran texts justified women priests.

Of note, the Mormons consider the total number of the members of the council - 15 (12 apostles, 3 high priests/presidents). As far as I know, the number 15 is of no biblical relevance. 12 does, even 3; but not 15 (though if we must, I understand 15 signifies “rest” to the Jews).

Smith called this form of organization “anciently” and over a century later, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered and happened to contain something fitting the description.

The Mormons believe the authors of the scrolls were prophecying what Smith et al. would institute, not how the Essene community lived (which, as has been written, is radically different than mainstream Jewish communities at the time the scrolls were written, not to mention the Christians then and now).

But then, Mormons don’t appear receptive to the possibility that it is a coincidence. But they are perfectly willing to suggest that Catholics are kidding themselves about their own history.
 
Toward a Qumran Soteriology
John V. Chamberlain
Novum Testamentum, Vol. 3, Fasc. 4 (Dec., 1959), pp. 305-313
doi:10.2307/1559947

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0048-1009%28195912%293%3A4%3C305%3ATAQS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H&size=LARGE
Evidence for the atoning efficacy of the sufferings of the spiritual leaders of the sect isincontrovertible and specially noteworthy use is made of Second Isaiah. At fol: viii in theManual of Discipline special mention is made of fifteen men, twelve laymen and three priests, who are said to be ‘perfect in all that is revealed from the whole Torah’. In the council of the community there shall be twelve men and three priests perfect in all that is revealed from the whole Torah, to act truly, rightly and justly and with a love of mercy; and to walk humbly each with his neighbour; to maintain loyalty in the land, with[p.13]integrity of purpose and a broken spirit; to expiate wrongdoing as men who uphold the righteous cause [or who act justly] and who endure the afflictions of the refiner’sfurnace…For an eternal planting, a Temple for Israel, A conclave which is an holy of holies for Aaron; True witnesses to judgement, and the chosen of grace to atone for the land, And to render to the wicked their desert. This is the tested wall, the precious corner-stone; Its foundations will not be shaken, nor be removed from their place.‘True witnesses to judgment’: these Qumran saints are to fulfil the mission of the Servant ofthe Lord (Isaiah xliii.10, 12: ‘Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom Ihave chosen’), while the ‘tested wall’ and ‘precious corner-stone’ recall Isaiah xxviii. 16 andI Peter ii.4 ff. The most significant words, however, are the description of these Qumransaints as ‘true witnesses to judgement, and the chosen of grace to atone for the land’.Taken in conjunction with the earlier description of the fifteen saints as men who expiate wrongdoing by enduring the afflictions of the refiner’s furnace (cf. Daniel xii. 10), we havein these verses the developed theological conception of a community or group within a community identifying itself with the Isaianic Remnant and attributing to its sacrificial sufferings a redemptive function. They are to constitute a living inner sanctuary (a ‘holy of holies’ for Aaron) in the Community, pictured, like the church in the New Testament, as a living Temple. (No less important is their work in judgement, for this corner-stone of the new Israel is not only to atone for the land but to render the wicked their deserts. As F. F. Brucehas remarked, the Servant who justifies many is also the Son of Man―in the Danielicsense―to whom has been given authority to execute judgement.20)19See appendix.20This doctrine of a ‘corporate’ atonement is one of the most striking points of resemblance between the Qumran sectaries and the later medieval sect of Qaraite Jews, their spiritual if not their lineal descendants.Cf. N. Wieder, The Judean Scrolls and Karaism (East and West Library, 1962), pp. 113 ff.
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biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/scrolls_black.pdf
 
Here is the passage itself for context, THE COMMUNITY RULE
Translated by G. Vermes 1QS
COL.VII
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  1. even though frivolously, or as a result of shock or for any other reason whatever, while reading the Book or praying, he shall be dismissed and
  2. shall return to the Council of the Community no more.
    If he has spoken in anger against one of the Priests inscribed in the Book, he shall do penance for one year
  3. and shall be excluded for his soulÕs sake from the pure Meal of the Congregation. But if he has spoken unwittingly, he shall do
  4. penance for six months. Whoever has deliberately lied shall do penance for six months. Whoever has deliberately insulted his companion unjustly shall do penance for one year and shall be excluded.
  5. whoever has deliberately deceived his companion by word or by deed shall do penance for six months. If he has failed to care for his
  6. companion, he shall do penance for three months. But if he has failed to care for the property of the Community, thereby causing its loss, he shall restore it in full.
  7. And if he be unable to restore it, he shall do penance for sixty days Whoever has borne malice against his companion unjustly shall do penance for six months/one year; and likewise,
  8. whoever has taken revenge in any matter whatever. Whoever has spoken foolishly: three months. Whoever has interrupted his companion whilst speaking:
  9. ten days. Whoever has lain down to sleep during an Assembly of the Congregation: thirty days. And likewise, whoever has left, with-
    10 out reason, an Assembly of the Congregation as many as three times during one Assembly, shall do penance for ten days. But if he has departed whilst they were standing
  10. he shall do penance for thirty days. Whoever has gone naked before his companion, without having been obliged to do so, he shall do penance for six months.
    12 Whoever has spat in an Assembly of the Congregation shall do penance for thirty days. Whoever has been so poorly dressed that when drawing his hand from beneath his garment
  11. his nakedness has been seen, he shall do penance for thirty days. Whoever has guffawed foolishly shall do penance for thirty
  12. days. Whoever has drawn out his left hand to gesticulate with it shall do penance for ten days. Whoever has gone about slandering his companion shall be excluded from the pure Meal of the Congregation for
  13. one year and shall do penance. But whoever has slandered the Congregation shall be expelled from among them
  14. and shall return no more. Whoever has murmured against the authority of the Community shall be expelled and shall not return. But if he has murmured against his companion
  15. unjustly, he shall do penance for six months. Should a man return whose spirit has so trembled before the authority of the Community that he has betrayed the truth and
  16. walked in the stubbornness of his heart, he shall do penance for two years. During the first year he shall not touch the pure Meal of the Congregation, and during the
  17. second year he shall not touch the Drink of the Congregation and shall sit below all the men of the Community. Then when
  18. his two years are completed, the Congregation shall consider his case, and if he is admitted he shall be inscribed in his rank and may then question concerning the Law.
  19. If, after being in the Council of the Community for ten full years,
  20. the spirit of any man has failed so that he has betrayed the Community and departed from the Congregation to walk in the stubbornness of his heart, he shall return no more to the Council of the Community. Moreover, if any member
  21. of the Community has shared with
  22. him his food or property which . . . of the Congregation, his sentence shall be the same; he shall be ex[pelled].
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