Proof of God in Prophecy?

[Charlemagne_III]

If the Church rated Newton then it would have said something. We can guess what it thinks from its silence. Unless you’re claiming there is an office in the Vatican which writes specific condemnations for every crackpot and loony.

The Church tends to reserve its condemnations for heretics.

Newton was not preaching heresy when he interpreted prophecy in the scriptures.

And as St. Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:19

“Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.”

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Jesus never said anything about slavery either. He never said anything about a lot of things. We can infer gender equality, but Christians didn’t for 2000 years.

That’s not really true is it? What Jesus did not specifically say we can easily infer under the admonition:

“Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You.” - Matthew 7:12

That is the only equality that really counts.

If we would not be the slave of another, we should not enslave others.

If we would not be killed, we should not kill others.

If we would not be lied to, we should not lie to others.

 

[Bahman]

Saint Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:19, “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.”

Is there sufficient reason by way of prophetic utterances to argue that the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments give evidence that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic?

No. There is no way to communicate with God to know the ultimate truth if there is any. Why God bother and communicate with a few individuals. God has absolute power in your definition then why it doesn’t appear to any youth and tell them the truth? Aren’t we all children of God? Why God leave people in state of doubt hiding itself from everybody and them punish them for not having faith?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No. There is no way to communicate with God to know the ultimate truth if there is any. Why God bother and communicate with a few individuals. God has absolute power in your definition then why it doesn’t appear to any youth and tell them the truth? Aren’t we all children of God? Why God leave people in state of doubt hiding itself from everybody and them punish them for not having faith?

Apparently you are not a Christian, so there is no way of answering you in a way that would satisfy you. I’ll try anyway.

Christians believe that God invites us into a relationship with him, but does not force himself upon us. Doubt therefore must be allowed. If God forced himself upon us in such a way as to remove all doubt, there would be no possibility of being free to choose him or reject him.

Adam and Eve were the first doubters. They were free to choose or not to choose. God values our freedom above all else. We are not his robots who are powerless to resist his will.

The fact that prophecies were made in the Old and New Testament, and that these prophecies are seen to have been fulfilled, helps to remove our doubts, but not absolutely, since, as inocente has pointed out, we are still free to deny that these prophecies have been fulfilled, and some will call them little more than fortune telling through a crystal ball.

 

[inocente]

I feel sorry for you if you rate Newton alongside fortune tellers. You still haven’t overcome Newton’s prediction concerning the return of the Jews to Israel. That is a colossally important prediction based on biblical prophecy, and does not consist of Newton waving his hands around a glass ball and peering deeply into it.

Newton never made the prediction, it was filled in after the event.

Statistically, anything can be “predicted” from any large enough book and it can look convincing, just as “mediums” can convince some people they are in touch with the dead, and illusionists can convince some that they made an ocean liner disappear. There are thousands of ways to be suckered.

But more than that, I just don’t see how supposed hidden messages have anything whatsoever to do with Christ. To me it is a gross misuse of the bible, a complete misunderstanding of what scripture is for, a contamination of religion with occultism. We’re supposed to read the bible prayerfully in the Spirit, not looking for magic tricks.

You obviously disagree, but you’ll not convince me otherwise so we’ll have to leave it there, .

*The Church defines Christ as the groom and the Church as the bride.

So we honor the bride spirituality of the Church along with the groom spirituality of Christ.

Christ chose twelve men to lead the Church in his place after his resurrection. This is biblical, though I guess you would not know since you appear not to have read your Baptist Bible, which is more or less the same Bible the Catholic Church assembled for your edification in the 4th Century.

The role of spiritual leadership is not exclusively masculine. Every child’s first catechist is his mother. If she is a true follower of Christ, she will transmit the truth of the Lord to her children, both sons and daughters. They will be equally loved and equally saved.

Though one has to be a priest to lead, one does not have to be a priest to be saved.

And there may well be more women in heaven than men. *

Here Aquinas is showing the severe limitations of medieval biology.

But it would another priest, Gregor Mendel, a contemporary of Charles Darwin, who would jump start the business of genetic science in the 19th century.

Tony is trying to tell me Jesus preached gender equality, I’m disagreeing with that.

Thomas is but one example of someone who never understood Jesus to preach gender equality. There are a number of Catholics today, and other Christians too, who believe God intends men and women to have different roles, they don’t agree that equality means equal opportunities and unisex. So even if we were to allow that Jesus preached equality, it’s disputed how He would define it.

Jesus walked in a heavily male-dominated society, imho if He had tried to preach women’s lib then He’d never have got a following and there never would have been a Christian religion. Jesus was silent on some morality because He had priorities.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Newton never made the prediction, it was filled in after the event.

Statistically, anything can be “predicted” from any large enough book and it can look convincing, just as “mediums” can convince some people they are in touch with the dead, and illusionists can convince some that they made an ocean liner disappear. There are thousands of ways to be suckered.

Well, if you think Newton was a huckster, I guess I can’t go on with you in this vein.

Newton was not gazing into a crystal ball. He was working from scriptures and history, and his reading of the return of the Jews to Israel in the 1940s was spot on. Do you think the Jews returned to Israel in 1948 just to prove Newton right, and that the United Nations, arranging for the return of the Jews to Israel, was part of this conspiracy to prove Newton could read crystal balls without reference to Scripture?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Jesus walked in a heavily male-dominated society, imho if He had tried to preach women’s lib then He’d never have got a following and there never would have been a Christian religion. Jesus was silent on some morality because He had priorities.

Or he was silent on some morality because some morality deserved silence.

 

[tonyrey]

You are equating Jesus with Brahma as a historical person on this earth.

Orthodox Christians have always believed everyone is equal in the sight of God. Jesus didn’t say said anything about slavery or equality for two reasons. It was implicit in His teaching that we are **all **children of the same Father. He also knew His teaching was revolutionary enough without attacking the Jewish patriarchal system or the Roman social system. He would have been executed before He had time to accomplish His mission. Despite His prudence He only survived for three years. As you pointed out:

Jesus was silent on some morality because He had priorities.

Here, for instance, is one of Thomas Aquinas’ remarks about the “accidental male”:

“9. Differentiation of the sexes must be attributed to celestial causes. Our reason for saying this is as follows: Every agent tends to form to its own likeness, as far as possible, that which is passive in its respect. Accordingly, the active principle in the male seed always tends toward the generation of a male offspring, which is more perfect than the female. From this it follows that conception of female offspring is something of an accident in the order of nature-in so far, at least, as it is not the result of the natural causality of the particular agent. Therefore, if there were no other natural influence at work tending toward the conception of female offspring, such conception would be wholly outside the design of nature, as is the case with what we call “monstrous” births. And so it is said that, although the conception of female offspring is not the natural result of the efficient causality of the particular nature at work—for which reason the female is sometimes spoken of as an “accidental male”—nevertheless, the conception of female offspring is the natural result of universal nature; that is, it is due to the influence of a heavenly body, as Avicenna suggests.” - De Veritate 5, 9, d 9 dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer5.htm#9.

St Thomas was not infallible but despite that mistake there is no evidence that he regarded men as superior to women in the sight of God. He realised Jesus chose male Apostles because He lived in a patriarchal society.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

St Thomas was not infallible but despite that mistake there is no evidence that he regarded men as superior to women in the sight of God. He realised Jesus chose male Apostles because He lived in a patriarchal society.

There is something to be said for certain patriarchal social structures.

Eleven rough-and-tumble men on a football team should not be allowed to attack a female quarterback on the opposing team. Nor would a female quarterback want to be attacked by eleven big men with raging hormones.

How that would turn out any prophet could predict without reading a crystal ball.

 

[inocente]

St Thomas was not infallible but despite that mistake there is no evidence that he regarded men as superior to women in the sight of God. He realised Jesus chose male Apostles because He lived in a patriarchal society.

Had you looked, you’d have found plenty of evidence that Thomas viewed women as inferior:

“I answer that, It was necessary for woman to be made, as the Scripture says, as a “helper” to man; not, indeed, as a helpmate in other works, as some say, since man can be more efficiently helped by another man in other works; but as a helper in the work of generation. …] Among perfect animals the active power of generation belongs to the male sex, and the passive power to the female. And as among animals there is a vital operation nobler than generation, to which their life is principally directed; therefore the male sex is not found in continual union with the female in perfect animals, but only at the time of coition; so that we may consider that by this means the male and female are one, as in plants they are always united; although in some cases one of them preponderates, and in some the other. But man is yet further ordered to a still nobler vital action, and that is intellectual operation.” - ST 1-92-1 newadvent.org/summa/1092.htm

While accepting that women are human too, Thomas goes on to say:

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes”

According to Thomas, women are defective, misbegotten, incapable of intellectual operation, of no value other than as incubation chambers to propagate the species. Indeed, women’s power of reasoning is on the same level as imbeciles:

“Now the reliability of a person’s evidence is weakened, sometimes indeed on account of some fault of his, as in the case of unbelievers and persons of evil repute, as well as those who are guilty of a public crime and who are not allowed even to accuse; sometimes, without any fault on his part, and this owing either to a defect in the reason, as in the case of children, imbeciles and women, or …]” ST 2-2-70-3 newadvent.org/summa/3070.htm

We all know that until recently women in Christian counties were not educated to the same level as women, they did not have the same opportunities as men, and were sometimes treated as the property of men. Either people never saw Jesus as preaching we’re all equal in the eyes of God, or they completely ignored Him. From the website of Spring Hill College, which says it is “the oldest Catholic college in the Southeast and the third oldest Jesuit college in the U.S.”, here’s a list of misogynistic quotes attributed to “Church Fathers, Doctors, and Saints” - shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/women.htm

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Had you looked, you’d have found plenty of evidence that Thomas viewed women as inferior:

“I answer that, It was necessary for woman to be made, as the Scripture says, as a “helper” to man; not, indeed, as a helpmate in other works, as some say, since man can be more efficiently helped by another man in other works; but as a helper in the work of generation. …] Among perfect animals the active power of generation belongs to the male sex, and the passive power to the female. And as among animals there is a vital operation nobler than generation, to which their life is principally directed; therefore the male sex is not found in continual union with the female in perfect animals, but only at the time of coition; so that we may consider that by this means the male and female are one, as in plants they are always united; although in some cases one of them preponderates, and in some the other. But man is yet further ordered to a still nobler vital action, and that is intellectual operation.” - ST 1-92-1 newadvent.org/summa/1092.htm

While accepting that women are human too, Thomas goes on to say:

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes”

According to Thomas, women are defective, misbegotten, incapable of intellectual operation, of no value other than as incubation chambers to propagate the species. Indeed, women’s power of reasoning is on the same level as imbeciles:

“Now the reliability of a person’s evidence is weakened, sometimes indeed on account of some fault of his, as in the case of unbelievers and persons of evil repute, as well as those who are guilty of a public crime and who are not allowed even to accuse; sometimes, without any fault on his part, and this owing either to a defect in the reason, as in the case of children, imbeciles and women, or …]” ST 2-2-70-3 newadvent.org/summa/3070.htm

We all know that until recently women in Christian counties were not educated to the same level as women, they did not have the same opportunities as men, and were sometimes treated as the property of men. Either people never saw Jesus as preaching we’re all equal in the eyes of God, or they completely ignored Him. From the website of Spring Hill College, which says it is “the oldest Catholic college in the Southeast and the third oldest Jesuit college in the U.S.”, here’s a list of misogynistic quotes attributed to “Church Fathers, Doctors, and Saints” - shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/women.htm

Well, it seems that you are hijacking this thread for a feminist rant.

Please stop.

We are talking about prophecy, not feminism.

Thank you.

This is yet another attempt of yours, now a very predictable pattern, by which you use Church documents to advance arguments against Catholic participants in the forum.
If you want to go on a feminist rant against the Catholic Church, why not start a new thread AND SEE WHO SHOWS UP?

 

[inocente]

Well, it seems that you are hijacking this thread for a feminist rant.

Please stop.

We are talking about prophecy, not feminism.

Thank you.

This is yet another attempt of yours, now a very predictable pattern, by which you use Church documents to advance arguments against Catholic participants in the forum.
If you want to go on a feminist rant against the Catholic Church, why not start a new thread AND SEE WHO SHOWS UP?

Don’t be ridiculous, quoting Thomas and the oldest Catholic college in the Southeast is not a rant. Jesus got very angry at whitewashing. Woe to moral relativists who spin history denial to look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

In any event Baptists have the same tradition as Catholics up until the divorce, and Thomas et al was before that, so the quotes are as much a part of my history as yours. I’ve told you before to stop painting me as a sectarian bigot. You may or may not have that vice yourself. I don’t.

It seems to have escaped your notice that I am a man. My wife died earlier this year. I posted a thread about her. Look it up. One day you might learn to check facts rather than just presuming, but I’ll not hold my breath.

Tony is asserting that Jesus preached gender equality and I am simply quoting evidence to the contrary. If you think it’s off-topic then complain to Tony, he brought it up. I already told you I don’t agree with your views on prophecy, and no one else has been posting.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Don’t be ridiculous, quoting Thomas and the oldest Catholic college in the Southeast is not a rant. Jesus got very angry at whitewashing. Woe to moral relativists who spin history denial to look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

In any event Baptists have the same tradition as Catholics up until the divorce, and Thomas et al was before that, so the quotes are as much a part of my history as yours. I’ve told you before to stop painting me as a sectarian bigot. You may or may not have that vice yourself. I don’t.

It seems to have escaped your notice that I am a man. My wife died earlier this year. I posted a thread about her. Look it up. One day you might learn to check facts rather than just presuming, but I’ll not hold my breath.

Tony is asserting that Jesus preached gender equality and I am simply quoting evidence to the contrary. If you think it’s off-topic then complain to Tony, he brought it up. I already told you I don’t agree with your views on prophecy, and no one else has been posting.

Merry Christmas.

O.K. I’m sorry to hear that you are spending your first Christmas without your wife.

I hope you will forgive any unintended personal hurt I caused you.

I think we are almost never on the same wave length in our discussions, which always end with some kind of pain on both sides, so I will not bother you again.

Stay well. God bless.

 

[tonyrey]

Had you looked, you’d have found plenty of evidence that Thomas viewed women as inferior: