Proof of God

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DJ_Adam said:
The thought had crossed my mind before I posted so I tried to come across as non-aggressive as possible in my wording, as I’m genuinely interested in having a rational debate with people about their beliefs, and thankyou for your reply 🙂

Personal choice on the matter is almost irrelevant, as He either exists or not and I’ll find out when I die. Or not as the case may be.
If I arrive at the gates of heaven when I die, I’ll hold my hands up and say I was wrong and beg forgiveness and open my heart to the glory of the lord. Or Buddha. Or Muhammad. Or maybe Bragi in Valhalla.
Because I don’t know what happens when I die, and nobody does because there’s no proof of life after death, I’ll be fine with the idea of oblivion. I’m made of matter and will become nothing when I die which is the most plausable explanation for this flimsy shell of flesh and bone.

My life is my life to lead as I see fit without having to worry about what God thinks.
I do good deeds not because it’s the Christian way that God teaches; I do it because it’ll benefit the person I help. The warm glow I get is a bonus!
I don’t murder people or steal just because it’s forbidden by God in the Ten Commandments: I don’t do them because I respect other people and wouldn’t want it happening to me or the people I know.
I didn’t thank God when I survived a nasty car accident without a scratch, I thanked my airbags and Herculean strength on the steering wheel. Nor would I thank him if my numbers came up on the national lottery; I picked some numbers by chance and got lucky.
God doesn’t come into any of my decision making.
I feel personally that makes me a “better” person for want of a better word, because I do it for the good of other people rather than the threat of going to hell.

So would I rather God existed?
I’d have to say no. It would take away the magic of life by thinking something supernatural was throwing good things in my direction. It would take away my sense of personal achievement because God would have made it happen. It would also make me angry that something supernatural made bad things happen to me and the people I know.

As for the sun incident, I wish I’d have seen it. As it stands, it was an unexplainable phenomenon, and more importantly, if God really did it “so that all may believe”, He could have said it to more than three children. If He really wanted all to believe, He’d do it now.
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Funny. I help other people because I respect them as humans, believing them to be made in the image of God. It’s not any negative compulsion, or fear of hell, that makes me do so.

And you think no Christian ever got a warm fuzzy glow from helping others? Heck, I get the double warm fuzzies - I help my fellow man AND I please my God at the same time. Can’t get warmer and fuzzier than that.
 
DJ_Adam said:
Thomas basically says that something can’t come from nothing, be it physical or movement. Therefore God exists.
For me that is no argument for the proof of God.
It’s equally plausable to assume something was always there. If God just “Is”, then why can’t the physical universe and movement within it just “Be there” strething back into infinite? If God can be infinite, why can’t the universe?
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It would have been plausible to hold this view a hundred years ago, but not today. Today we have science that makes an overwhelming case for a beginning, a Big Bang. That same science also makes an overwhelming case that nothing lasts forever. Entropy, heat death, decay of fundamental particles. So science does not allow for your counter-thesis.
Also, taking that argument of Something must create something from nothing, then what created God? Why was God there before the creating of everything? The answer of “Because He’s God” isn’t an answer; if anything it highlights the blindness of faith which I find incomprehensible.
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I would say that you’re looking at it the wrong way. A better question might be, what could create something (matter, energy, human consciousness) out of nothing? Obviously it can’t be matter or energy or human consciousness. So what is it? It must have been something fundamentally outside of matter and energy and human thought. What might it have been? What is your answer for the universe, life and everything?
It also begs the question of what did he do for an eternity before the beginning? It’s a long time to just be there and twiddle His thumbs. 🙂
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You assume here that God is somehow controlled by, embedded in, time. That is just anthropomorphasizing God. It’s impossible to avoid completely, just like imagining an 11-dimensional world is ultimately impossible, but it’s always a mistake.
 
DJ_Adam said:
I would also like to add I’m thoroughly enjoying this conversation with very friendly people, so thankyou for having me! 🙂
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Indeed! There is something magically human (however you want to take that) about being able to discuss such matters, and even about comprehending that they can and should be discussed. 🙂
 
DJ_Adam said:
Again, if He wants all to believe, he’d do it now and he’d tell more than just a few children in a field He was about to show us. The sun incident will be a miracle to the 3 children, the other 69,997 people saw something unexplainable.
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Why the need for a direct conduit like this? God not only has to perform a miracle, but inform everyone in the world directly in advance?

Not to mention, what would the implications be for humanity? You mentioned how you liked to do things that are ‘good’ without any external threat or reward. Believe it or not, this is what motivates many Christians as well. If I gave you a reward every time you did something good, you wouldn’t automatically be being good for the sake of the reward (or to avoid punishment, in the other case).
 
We have proof that God exists, because Prophecy is His signature on the Scriptures/Bible. Who else could inspire the Bible, if not somebody who is above time. God is the creator of time. He inspired people to write things in the Old Testament that were realised in the New Testament.

(You have to keep in mind that the Old Testament was written hundreds, if not thousands of years before the New Testament.)

Prophecy is like somebody predicting the future. But it is more than that; it is writing down the specifics of an event, before the event actually occurred.

(A prediction is when you tell your friends that your football team is going to win this weekend. But a prohecy is actually telling your friends the details of that game… before the game is actually played.)

Arguably, the most important prophecy given to us was the prediction that Jesus will come to earth to save us. There are hundreds of biblical predictions concerning the birth, life, and death of Jesus in the Old Testament and which have been realised and confirmed in the New Testament. Below are just a few of them which you may find familiar…

In the Old Testament, we read about
a virgin who will become pregnant and it will be a sign that God is with us. (Isaiah 7:14)
In the New Testament, we are told that
the Virgin Mary, will give birth to Jesus, the Son of the Most High God. (Luke 1:31-32)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a star that will annouce the birth of a king. (Numbers 24:17)
In the New Testament, we are told that
wise men followed the star that led them to baby Jesus. (Matthew 2:2)

In the Old Testament, we read about
one being betrayed by a close friend for 30 silver coins. (Psalms 41:9 and Zechariah 11:9,12)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus was betrayed by one of His apostles, Judas, for 30 silver coins. (Matthew 26:14-15 and Matthew 27:4)

In the Old Testament, we read about
the cry and anguish of a man and the pains of his hands and feet. (Psalms 22:16)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus had his hands pierced by nails. (John 20:25)

In the Old Testament, we read about
God’s servant who is being harshly treated and yet still praying that they might be forgiven. (Isaiah 53:12)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus prays for forgiveness to those who are killing Him. (Luke 23:34)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a devoted servant who would bear the punishment of many. (Isaiah 53:11)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus died for our sins. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a wise man who is saved from the power of death. (Psalms 49:15)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus rises from the dead. (Luke 24:34)

Prophecy is God’s signature on the scriptures. So christians can rejoice, because God came to earth to save us. And we knew He would… We knew a thousand years before it happened.
 
We have proof that God exists, because Prophecy is His signature on the Scriptures/Bible. Who else could inspire the Bible, if not somebody who is above time. God is the creator of time. He inspired people to write things in the Old Testament that were realised in the New Testament.

(You have to keep in mind that the Old Testament was written hundreds, if not thousands of years before the New Testament.)

Prophecy is like somebody predicting the future. But it is more than that; it is writing down the specifics of an event, before the event actually occurred.

(A prediction is when you tell your friends that your football team is going to win this weekend. But a prohecy is actually telling your friends the details of that game… before the game is actually played.)

Arguably, the most important prophecy given to us was the prediction that Jesus will come to earth to save us. There are hundreds of biblical predictions concerning the birth, life, and death of Jesus in the Old Testament and which have been realised and confirmed in the New Testament. Below are just a few of them which you may find familiar…

In the Old Testament, we read about
a virgin who will become pregnant and it will be a sign that God is with us. (Isaiah 7:14)
In the New Testament, we are told that
the Virgin Mary, will give birth to Jesus, the Son of the Most High God. (Luke 1:31-32)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a star that will annouce the birth of a king. (Numbers 24:17)
In the New Testament, we are told that
wise men followed the star that led them to baby Jesus. (Matthew 2:2)

In the Old Testament, we read about
one being betrayed by a close friend for 30 silver coins. (Psalms 41:9 and Zechariah 11:9,12)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus was betrayed by one of His apostles, Judas, for 30 silver coins. (Matthew 26:14-15 and Matthew 27:4)

In the Old Testament, we read about
the cry and anguish of a man and the pains of his hands and feet. (Psalms 22:16)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus had his hands pierced by nails. (John 20:25)

In the Old Testament, we read about
God’s servant who is being harshly treated and yet still praying that they might be forgiven. (Isaiah 53:12)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus prays for forgiveness to those who are killing Him. (Luke 23:34)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a devoted servant who would bear the punishment of many. (Isaiah 53:11)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus died for our sins. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

In the Old Testament, we read about
a wise man who is saved from the power of death. (Psalms 49:15)
In the New Testament, we are told that
Jesus rises from the dead. (Luke 24:34)

Prophecy is God’s signature on the scriptures. So christians can rejoice, because God came to earth to save us. And we knew He would… We knew a thousand years before it happened.
 
DJ_Adam said:
Thomas basically says that something can’t come from nothing, be it physical or movement. Therefore God exists.
For me that is no argument for the proof of God.
It’s equally plausable to assume something was always there. If God just “Is”, then why can’t the physical universe and movement within it just “Be there” strething back into infinite? If God can be infinite, why can’t the universe?
Also, taking that argument of Something must create something from nothing, then what created God? Why was God there before the creating of everything? The answer of “Because He’s God” isn’t an answer; if anything it highlights the blindness of faith which I find incomprehensible. It also begs the question of what did he do for an eternity before the beginning? It’s a long time to just be there and twiddle His thumbs. 🙂
Thomas’s argument for design I sort of mention in a previous post: With an infinite timescale to produce infinite results, chance will always occur.
If the matter making up the universe has been there for an infinite length of time, possibly with an infinite number of big crunchs and big bang universe creations before this one, there’s plenty of chances for what we have in the universe now to be created.
As for the argument of Degree claiming that the maximum amount of perfect goodness is God requires no rebut.
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On your first objection: Is it not true that an object at rest will stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force? This law contradicts the idea of a self existing universe as there must have been a necessary being that put things into motion. This idea is further ratified by the work of the most recent Nobel winner who solidified the Big Bang Theory in that there was a definite beginning to the Universe. Also, since there was a beginning to the universe there was a beginning to time as such and so there is no way to speak about time before the universe was as there was no time before that moment. Since we know that there was a beginning to time and space and we know that things are at rest until acted upon by an outside force we know that there must have been that was uncreated (a being who is self necessary) to produce that initial movement from rest to action.

Your understanding of God being self-necessary is a bit skewed and I would like to take another opportunity to investigate that in another post.

You mention an infinite set of infinities but what you call chance is not correct mathematically. Rather it is an ordered system of causal lines intersecting. Order implies intelligence and therefore there must be a necessary intelligence to order that system.

Degree or rather gradation is self evident. There must be a scale from most to least of all things measurable. God as defined is the most good meaning the most perfect as is fitting to the definition of God as such. Without gradation all measurement is meaningless.

However, I see that you are not actually understanding the Five proofs of the existence of God but rather it seems that your understanding of them is very superficial. This is not to insult but rather it is an opportunity to look at each as they are and in so doing I think that you will find the answer that you are seeking just as Maritan did when he read the Summa.
 
DJ_Adam said:
So would I rather God existed?
I’d have to say no. It would take away the magic of life by thinking something supernatural was throwing good things in my direction. It would take away my sense of personal achievement because God would have made it happen. It would also make me angry that something supernatural made bad things happen to me and the people I know.
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The “magic of life” is replaced by the joy of life when the existence of God is acknowledged and his Word learned and lived. In regards to a loss of a sense of personal achievement, it does take humility to be Catholic (no personal attack intended) and again there is joy in putting “first things first” (acknowledging God’s works).
God does permit bad things to happen and I would suggest reading the book of Job along with the chapter on the book of Job in Peter Kreeft’s book “You Can Understand the Bible”.

Raychel
 
DJ_Adam said:
I’ll second that 🙂
I don’t dispute that 70,000 people saw it.
Not all 70,000 people were told it was a miracle though, only 3 children.
The whole world could have watched it live on TV. It doesn’t make it a miracle. It would have been a miracle if God had told everyone He was going to do it beforehand. Instead he told three children “so that all may believe”.
Again, if He wants all to believe, he’d do it now and he’d tell more than just a few children in a field He was about to show us. The sun incident will be a miracle to the 3 children, the other 69,997 people saw something unexplainable.

I would also like to add I’m thoroughly enjoying this conversation with very friendly people, so thankyou for having me! 🙂
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There were 70,000 people there watching, including reporters, precisely because the children advised that Mary said there would be a sign at that time.

From the Wiki article linked above:

The children reported that the Lady had promised them that at mid-day on October 13 in the Cova da Iria the Lady would reveal her identity to the children [8] and perform a miracle "so that all may believe.

Also, there are the Eucharisitic miracles, and the apparitions of Mary in Egypt → in the 21st century…
 
Please consider the following response to the question “Does God exist?”

“God” is the name by which I try to address existence. After years of trying to answer the question as though my intellectual achievement would actually bring God into the world, I had to look at the question differently. One might as well ask “Does existence exist?” (I have found the passage about Moses and the burning bush where Moses asks God to tell him His name to support this way of looking at the question)

Now the relevant question becomes “Can I get to know Existence (Reality, Truth) in any meaningful way? Can I have a personal relationship with Reality?”

My own life experience and what I have read in the Scriptures, especially the Gospels leads me to answer “yes” to that question. The fundamental point of Jesus’s message “The kingdom of God is at hand” is that we can have a personal relationship with Reality. We can live a life that is in touch with Reality. Living according to Jesus’s words and example is what will make that happen.

With all due respect to the authors of the many thick books written to answer the question “Does God Exist?”, that question just doesn’t seem to be the right question.

peace

Jim
 
My proof of God is:

instinct in animals/plants

and

the soul in human beings

Peace and God Bless.
 
Don’t expect to find emperical proof anytime soon either.

Science is limited by its own definition as to what it can say about the world. It cannot and does not address the supernatural.

However, we can find God through reason. Given the evidence, Revelation etc… men who search for the truth can find God this way. God is very reasonable.

Our Pope has said that we should not abandon reason to material science.
 
DJ ADAM

*If God can be infinite, why can’t the universe?
*
Just because it isn’t. Ask any astronomer.
 
There’s a lot of reponses there! But I’m seeing a few themes that I’ll repond to, that being: the big bang and the creation of all matter and energy, miracles and belief in them, and also what some have posted as their “proof of God”.

Vocimike post#22 asks what could create something from nothing. The only answer in my present understanding to this question is God.
Before everyone shouts “Hallelujah!” that still doesn’t convince me because my first point about what came before the beginning still stands. It may well be the case I’m anthropomorphasising God, but to not do means worshipping something that could never be understood as it’s outside of all present understanding. I don’t understand how my wireless connection to the internet works, but I don’t worship it.

The Big Bang is a perfectly sound explanation for the present creation of the universe. The beginning of which can be attributed to God. To just accept that though is to stop asking questions about the world and universe we live in. Again, a “blindness of faith” in that you believe it to be true, so it must be.
As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps all the matter and energy in the universe just “Is”. It explodes, creates a universe, crunchs in on itself over time, then another big bang, so on and so forth for infinite. All matter and energy always has been there in one form or another. There was never nothing. For me that is more plausible than a god or God creating everything, because, again anthropomorphasising God, I’d want to know what He did before the beginning. And if it’s not understandable and outside the human process of thought and imagination, it’s impossible for me to worship it.

Briefly regarding miracles, in particular the “Miracle of the Sun”, it’s not a miracle unless you’re told it’s such.
The empty cans of Coke on my desk could dance around. I’d find it weird and scary as anything, but not a sign from God (unless it happened now of course, in which case God heard me and wanted to prove a point). If God told me he was going to make my Coke cans dance around to make me believe in Him, I’d believe 100%.
The sun turning into a weird spinning disc and drying my clothes would be 100% odd, but again unless I knew it was Him how do I know it’s a miracle? I could be under the influence of mind-altering drugs, hypnotised, or maybe aliens are putting on a light show. The doubt is there, and just to say “God did it” to me is far too easy because it kills the quest for knowledge and understanding.
Similarly, I’ve been in a room of aquintences where several people claimed they could see green gnomes. Do I believe them? What difference is there from those people saying they saw green gnomes to some people saying they saw the virgin Mary?
With absense of fact, any “miracle” is an unknown phenomenon.
Magicsilence said:
My proof of God is:
instinct in animals/plants
and
the soul in human beings
Peace and God Bless.
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Again, personal belief which cannot be based in fact.
Just because something is there doesn’t mean God did it.

Also Charlie in post#25 says the Bible is the proof of God.
As an athiest the Bible to me is just a story with a code of conduct. I don’t question for a second that if the whole world followed it everyone would be much happier.
But do I believe everything I read? No. Because if I did I’d believe there was a magical kingdom at the back of my wardrobe.
My understanding of the Bible is that it was Emperor Constantine in 4th century Rome who asked the unorganised Christian leaders to come up with one canon to unify the faith. Which books made it into the Bible and which were dropped were put to a vote.
The Bible can’t be the true word of God when it was selected by men paid for by a pagan emperor.

Thanks for the continued replies, I’m finding it all very interesting to talk about. I also hope I’m not sounding disrespectful to anyones beliefs because not once have I felt anyone has been that way with mine 🙂

PS - My Coke cans haven’t moved in the time I spent typing this. Perhaps God doesn’t want to show himself to me today…?
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
DJ ADAM

*If God can be infinite, why can’t the universe?
*
Just because it isn’t. Ask any astronomer.
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The meaning of an infinite universe is that it always has been there and always will in one form or another.
It is finite in the number of particles of matter and energy it holds (as something can’t come from nothing, hence my hypothesis that the universe just “Is”), but infinite in the space it can expand in to.
To say that the space the universe can expand into is finite, that requires a barrier where it stops. Whats on the other side at the end of the universe…?

I’m open to be proved wrong about the origins and the makeup of the universe, be it science or God.
A Christian or any follower of organised religion is “stuck” (for want of a better word) with God.
 
DJ_Adam said:
The Big Bang is a perfectly sound explanation for the present creation of the universe. The beginning of which can be attributed to God. To just accept that though is to stop asking questions about the world and universe we live in. Again, a “blindness of faith” in that you believe it to be true, so it must be.
As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps all the matter and energy in the universe just “Is”. It explodes, creates a universe, crunchs in on itself over time, then another big bang, so on and so forth for infinite. All matter and energy always has been there in one form or another. There was never nothing. For me that is more plausible than a god or God creating everything, because, again anthropomorphasising God, I’d want to know what He did before the beginning. And if it’s not understandable and outside the human process of thought and imagination, it’s impossible for me to worship it.

Briefly regarding miracles, in particular the “Miracle of the Sun”, it’s not a miracle unless you’re told it’s such.
The empty cans of Coke on my desk could dance around. I’d find it weird and scary as anything, but not a sign from God (unless it happened now of course, in which case God heard me and wanted to prove a point). If God told me he was going to make my Coke cans dance around to make me believe in Him, I’d believe 100%.
The sun turning into a weird spinning disc and drying my clothes would be 100% odd, but again unless I knew it was Him how do I know it’s a miracle? I could be under the influence of mind-altering drugs, hypnotised, or maybe aliens are putting on a light show. The doubt is there, and just to say “God did it” to me is far too easy because it kills the quest for knowledge and understanding.
Similarly, I’ve been in a room of aquintences where several people claimed they could see green gnomes. Do I believe them? What difference is there from those people saying they saw green gnomes to some people saying they saw the virgin Mary?
With absense of fact, any “miracle” is an unknown phenomenon.

Again, personal belief which cannot be based in fact.
Just because something is there doesn’t mean God did it.

Also Charlie in post#25 says the Bible is the proof of God.
As an athiest the Bible to me is just a story with a code of conduct. I don’t question for a second that if the whole world followed it everyone would be much happier.
But do I believe everything I read? No. Because if I did I’d believe there was a magical kingdom at the back of my wardrobe.
My understanding of the Bible is that it was Emperor Constantine in 4th century Rome who asked the unorganised Christian leaders to come up with one canon to unify the faith. Which books made it into the Bible and which were dropped were put to a vote.
The Bible can’t be the true word of God when it was selected by men paid for by a pagan emperor.
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The vote was 1 or 2 objections and they were to the issue of the trinity as I recollect. Don’t believe the DaVinci hoax. It is dishonest and not history. Use reliable historical sources.

Yours is a poor understanding of the Bible. One area to explore is the OT. Calculate the odds that the prophesies in the OT could be fulfilled by one man. You will find them staggering, akin to being led into the Sahara desert blindfolded and picking up the only red grain of sand the very fist attempt, and then again. Almost the same odds by the way of the universe coming to be by chance.

As far as God being understandable - we are created. If we could fully understand God, we would be like HIm. We are not. Our knowledge and intellectual capacity is strictly limited.

A key to belief is humility. An arrogant person cannot find God.
 
DJ ADAM

A Christian or any follower of organised religion is “stuck” (for want of a better word) with God.

And, for want of a better word, the atheist is “stuck” with a universe that science tells us at one time did not exist.
 
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