Proof of how Christian division really hurts us

  • Thread starter Thread starter javelin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
on the other hand maybe a choice of denominations isn,t all bad.a quote from abe lincoln about all the sects in christianity="the more sects we have the better.they are getting someone in that others could not:and even with the numerous divisions we are doing tolerably well when compared to other christian nations " amen abe! in christ,celt
 
40.png
didymus:
I agree that it is sad, but on the other hand, isn’t it better that we are Catholic because we want to be and not because it’s the ONLY thing to be?
No, I don’t think that’s a relevant point because there will always be (at least until Jesus comes again) the option of disbelieving God and Jesus altogether.

The original quote came up in an attempt to bring the Christian Gospel to atheists and agnostics, who understandably look at the mass of doctrinal confusion even within Christianity with disdain. In their view, even if they were to consider believing in Jesus, how can they possibly know what true Christianity is, or what to really believe in? After all, even the Christians don’t really know!

So it is the internal divisions that hurt our ability to appeal to outsider, or unbelievers. Just as many devout Catholics see scandal in the many Protestant denominations, so, too, many atheists and agnostics see the same scandal in all of Christianity.

Our only recourse is to share with them the Truth as we know it and pray unceasingly.

Peace,
javelin
 
40.png
azcelt:
on the other hand maybe a choice of denominations isn,t all bad.a quote from abe lincoln about all the sects in christianity="the more sects we have the better.they are getting someone in that others could not:and even with the numerous divisions we are doing tolerably well when compared to other christian nations " amen abe! in christ,celt
I have to disagree with good old Abe here, at least from the standpoint that it would still be better if the Church was truly one.

I can agree with him in that I do think it is better for someone to be protestant than atheist, agnostic, or any other non-Christian religion. However, it has not proven to be like a sort of “stepping stone” to the Catholic faith. Most people who become Protestant stay there, and our divisions remain.

Peace,
javelin
 
We have problems accepting that all members of the Catholic church – liberal, orthodox, etc. are equally valid.

Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready. Orthodox wonder why liberals won’t go away since they don’t believe completely in the Church.

Protestantism just makes all that formal.

At least those still in the Church are here because they choose to be, not because they are forced to be.

Alan
 
I believe Abe Lincoln was known to be anti-Catholic, so his liking of different sects is hardly a surprise—or a position that I can respect. A plurality is different sects is great insofar as it shows the religious freedom of any one country or culture. A plurality of different sects, however, is not great as an expression of the concept that Truth is knowable. A plurality of sects can contribute to the attitude of religious indifferentism.

javelin,

I agree with you—although it’s better than nothing for the individual, Protestantism promotes relativism within a culture—and that is deadly.

AlanFromWichita,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say, “Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready.” Why would the orthodox go away from the Church when they are the ones following her? If they were to go away, they would cease being orthodox! Please explain your logic here.

You wrote: “Orthodox wonder why liberals won’t go away since they don’t believe completely in the Church.”

I think that the term “heterodox” would be more useful here. But, assuming that you meant to say “heterodox”, isn’t it at least somewhat reasonable (it is certainly logical) to wonder why cafeteria Catholics don’t leave to find the church that suits them? If they’re going to act like Protestants who go to Mass (and in the process confusing others), why not simply leave and make it official?

My point is that the two positions that you list are not equally logical and valid, though your presentation seems to suggest a kind of parity between the two positions.
 
There is always going to be disunity…that’s how you can tell that there are still true Christians out there…if we were all in one accord it would have to be an “anything goes” type of Christianity that would make even Methodists blush.

This guy doesn’t sound like he really wanted to know about Christianity. If he did he would pick up a Bible and read it, and know the truth.
 
40.png
Christian4life:
There is always going to be disunity…that’s how you can tell that there are still true Christians out there…
The “narrow gate” concept is a Biblical reality.
40.png
Christian4life:
…This guy doesn’t sound like he really wanted to know about Christianity. If he did he would pick up a Bible and read it, and know the truth.
Christian disunity is a tool of satan. We can certainly pray that the good Lord will grace this atheist with enough strong hints as to the correct path to follow.

In the meantime, I will continue my daily prayer for Christian unity.
 
40.png
Sherlock:
I don’t understand what you mean when you say, “Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready.” Why would the orthodox go away from the Church when they are the ones following her? If they were to go away, they would cease being orthodox! Please explain your logic here.
I consider myself to be a great engineer at integrating things, so I tend to focus on characteristics of boundaries of equipment with various types of interfaces.

In here I’m looking at the function interface between these two groups, orthodox and liberal. Let’s take as axiomatic that the two groups are properly separated for use in this example, and all participate in some non-zero degree of group-identified behavior. In addition, I’m going to use stereotypes here that may not hold true in any situation, but I’d bet more often than not.

The interface between the orthodox and liberals is two-way. They see others in the same groups as comforting and affirming, and those in the opposite group and disinterested, unable to undersand, or even hostile.

Here’s how it looks to me. The orthodox thinks, "why would anybody want to be in the Church when they don’t believe all she teaches? To me the Most Important Part of being Catholic is the surrender of all matters of morals and faith to the magesterium. It is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I just can’t grasp how these people can’t just see it that way because it is so right there.

The liberal thinks, "so I am Not One Of Them since I have troubles in my faith. They are no more or no less sinners than I, and yet they have special categories they make up to name people with my kind of sin because it’s particularly dangerous that it might spread like yeast through the dough. I guess that’s the way it goes; we make an easy target because they have God on their side. :rolleyes: "

In psychological lingo, the orthodox is saying, “I’m OK, you’re not OK.” This attitude, when present, cannot be hidden from the Holy Spirit, and eventually is conveyed to a liberal, for whom it will cause resentment toward the orthodox.

The liberal is saying, “I’m OK, you’re not OK” because they think they answer to a higher set of rules than the intellectualized ones the orthodox use. Therefore they tend to breed resentment in the orthodox towards the liberals.

There’s a few other factors I could throw in, but the idea is that our very beliefs work to construct communications barriers that are rooted in false self emotions. These work to maintain the division against any sort of reasonable unity.

Unless they are recognized and removed from the equation, neither side can “beat” the other side into removing the barriers, because the minute the two sides get hostile and/or defensive – which is like 99% of the time – they just tend to make statements that reinforce their views about each other. Therefore, they are like two kings on an empty chessboard who can at best have a draw, each having failed to summon his armies to crush the other.

Alan
 
40.png
Christian4life:
There is always going to be disunity…that’s how you can tell that there are still true Christians out there…if we were all in one accord it would have to be an “anything goes” type of Christianity that would make even Methodists blush.
:rotfl:

Oh my! Slam dunk! :clapping:

Christian4life 3, Methodists zip.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita,

What you wrote did not address the questions that I raised regarding your previous post (such as, why would the orthodox “go away” from the Church when they clearly follow her and are thus orthodox because of that?) but instead simply raises a new batch of peculiar stereotypes of doubtful accuracy and pits them against each other. It’s all very subjective, and doesn’t seem to acknowledge the fact that truth can even exist (your made-up conflict seems more interesting to you than whether or not there is truth anywhere to be found). You seem to be saying, “a pox on both their houses”, but you’ve created your own “houses” (stereotypes) and then created an imagined conflict without actually considering if the stereotypes are accurate, or if there is a truth knowable that one can adhere to—in other words, you’re so busy pitting your tin soldiers against each other, you haven’t noticed that in the real world there is a battle going on.

Try again.
 
This was one of my main arguments I used when I was an atheist. I reasoned, One God-One Jesus-One Truth?..then why so many different “takes” on the same thing??

I finally came Home when I STOPED looking at protestant churches and STARTED looking toward Rome. 👍
 
40.png
Sherlock:
AlanFromWichita,

What you wrote did not address the questions that I raised regarding your previous post (such as, why would the orthodox “go away” from the Church when they clearly follow her and are thus orthodox because of that?) but instead simply raises a new batch of peculiar stereotypes of doubtful accuracy and pits them against each other.
When a liberal such as myself (at times I suppose I am anyway) gets hounded as to why I don’t leave the Church, I can’t necessarily give a good answer, especially to the satisfaction of the one asking. They seem to be telline me that I am too sick to get help in the Church, or that I am not willing to go along with every treatment I get so why don’t I just leave.

I personally have asked orthodox who made it clear that they considered themselves “more Catholic” than me, if they are so much spiritually healthier than me, then why would they deny me a hospital bed, when they obviously don’t need it as badly?
It’s all very subjective, and doesn’t seem to acknowledge the fact that truth can even exist (your made-up conflict seems more interesting to you than whether or not there is truth anywhere to be found).
I can assure you, I didn’t make up the details of this conflict. I read this stuff every day. I think it is a pretty good, though obviously subjective and stereotypical, model of what happens. I’m big into making models because I’m an engineer. Once we have a model, then we can proceed to a diagnosis and maybe even a fix.

If you don’t agree, then let me know which parts of they dynamics you don’t think can be modeled this way.
You seem to be saying, “a pox on both their houses”,
No. I’m saying they are like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Always casting stones at each others’ houses, with no plan or even realistic hope of doing anything constructive. Each side thinks they have to be smarter, better, more articulate, and maybe, just maybe, the others will see their side.

In a way, they are getting a pox on both their houses, but not because I’m wishing it that way. I’m simply observing it. They are locked into a quagmire. I wish to create a working model which captures the essence of the conflict so we can design a solution.
but you’ve created your own “houses” (stereotypes) and then created an imagined conflict without actually considering if the stereotypes are accurate, or if there is a truth knowable that one can adhere to—in other words, you’re so busy pitting your tin soldiers against each other, you haven’t noticed that in the real world there is a battle going on.
Yes, it is hypothetical, but I propose it as a starting point for a working communications model of the chasm between the two sides.

In order to continue further to support an effort to heal the divide, then I recommend you take the following two attitudes: 1) I am not better or worse than any particular liberal/orthodox, as we are all children of God and all judged by the same Judge.
2) I am willing to attempt to put aside the “more or less Catholic” or “more or less charitable” yardsticks enough to have a discussion with liberals/orthodox that doesn’t presuppose we might be working for different Gods.
3) I am willing to listen openly, trying to hear the truth in the other side, some aspect of which is inevitably somewhere buried in what they say, as opposed to standing there with a flyswatter slapping each sentence they say as it comes out if it doesn’t meet our standards.

Alan
 
40.png
Sherlock:
you haven’t noticed that in the real world there is a battle going on.

Try again.
Dude, I hope you can take this in charity, as I mean for it to be.

If you want to look at the nature of the division, the “battle” as it were between orthodox and the lowly, scum-sucking relativists or cafeteria Catholics or whatever pejorative term you can think of, consider for a moment that no battle is sustained unless both sides fight.

Look at your side, which I assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that you count yourself squarely on the “orthodox” side. I’ll take one example, picked from your last words – the words where you give me your final impression for me to take away from your post.

The example from your post is objectively condescending. “you haven’t noticed that in the real world” This is objectively an ad hominem attack, a very common symptom of what happens when one person thinks they are better or smarter or more informed or more mature or somehow superior to another.

By “try again” in a paragraph by itself, that clearly indicates to me that you are putting the entire onus of our communication issue on me, because you have neatly characterized what I already wrote as trash and are challenging me to come up with something that’s not as stupid.

You have not understood what I wrote, and indeed I did “try again” to explain it, but I envision you with your arms folded, with a frown that says, “you are clearly not orthodox like me, and I just dare you to say something against me.”

When I say things critical of you, it is for you, not against you. Orthodox say they’re trying to do us a favor by instructing us, but it comes across as belittling and the emotions get in the way of real discussion that ACTUALLY MIGHT INFORM some of us of what we don’t understand if you’d just talk to us like we were human beings and not vermin that are sliming up the pews in your Holy Church. OK, so that’s a little repressed agression coming out, so I’m not beyond adding emotion to my posts myself. We are all sinners, and all lack in faith. If you don’t judge my sin I won’t judge yours.

In a nutshell, I don’t blame liberals for there being a chasm any more or less than orthodox. Neither side hears the other, so they can never agree. That is, until this thread in which we’re going to fix it, if I have any faith at all then I believe the Holy Spirit will touch at least one Catholic on each side of this argument and help them be more loving and unitive.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita,

None of this answers my question, and I’ll repeat (for the third time): why would the orthodox “go away” (in your initial post, you stated that “Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready”) from the Church when they clearly follow her and are thus orthodox because of that?

Also, as I mentioned, the term “liberal” is a confusing one and best not applied here, as one can be both liberal (in some areas at least) while remaining orthodox. The opposite of “orthodox” is “heterodox”. I take it that you are heterodox.

You wrote: “When a liberal such as myself (at times I suppose I am anyway) gets hounded as to why I don’t leave the Church, I can’t necessarily give a good answer, especially to the satisfaction of the one asking.”

It’s a reasonable thing to ask: if you don’t agree with the Church and (more importantly) have no intention of agreeing with her, why not leave for one that suits you? But what does this have to do with your answering my question?

You wrote: “I personally have asked orthodox who made it clear that they considered themselves “more Catholic” than me, if they are so much spiritually healthier than me, then why would they deny me a hospital bed, when they obviously don’t need it as badly?”

I don’t think you understand what certain terms like “orthodox” mean. “Orthodox”, for instance, is a description of someone who is faithful to the Magisterium. It relates specifically to whether or not a person is in accord with the Church. It can be objectively measured: do you follow Church teaching in matters of faith and morals? Yes? Then you’re orthodox. No? Then you’re heterodox. It isn’t a statement of “spiritual health”—an orthodox Catholic may have many, many struggles and at times be “spiritually sick”. Is an orthodox Catholic “more” Catholic than a heterodox Catholic? Well, in one sense, yes—here’s an analogy: if I subscribe to most of the Republican party’s platform and vote consistently for Republicans, I’m more of a Republican than someone who disagrees with most of the Republican platform and votes consistently for Democrats—even if that person says that they are a Republican. Why is that so difficult to accept? Don’t actions—not just words—mean something? It seems logical to me that to be “more” Catholic means to conform one’s life to the Catholic faith more and more.

You wrote: “If you don’t agree, then let me know which parts of they dynamics you don’t think can be modeled this way.”

I already mentioned my problem: you have no acknowledgement of objective truth in your “model”. The Catholic Church has the authority to protect and teach objective truth in matters of faith and morals: you either believe that or you don’t. Since that belief is utterly foundational to Catholicism, it is logical to see it as a fixed point to which any group can measure itself against. Your model is lacking any objective truth by which the two “sides” can be measured against—you’re too busy pitting them against each other without any concept that one side might actually be closer to truth than the other, or that the possibility of a discrepancy in their positions relative to the truth is possible. You’ve made the conflict subjective and relative.
 
40.png
javelin:
I peeked at the thread for the beast movie, and saw that their site had forums associated. One of the atheists who posted there had this to say, which is all-too-common:

How very sad that our divisions drive some away from the God that we try to show them. Let us never forget to pray unceasingly for unity.

Peace,
javelin
Don’t blame me for the schism. I came home to Jesus and His Catholic Church. Blame the schismatics who refuse to come home. The Catholics didn’t break away, the Protestants did.😦
 
40.png
Sherlock:
AlanFromWichita,

None of this answers my question, and I’ll repeat (for the third time):
Dear Sherlock,

I sense you are being as honest, sincere, and charitable as you can, but still my condescention detector went off right in the first sentence. “For the third time” is clearly an ad hominem attack intended to make me look stupid or unresponsive (perhaps I am being so but I honestly am not trying to be) which raises communication barriers, not lowers them. This is exactly the issue I was raising at what I hear when being spoken to by a self-proclaimed “orthodox.” When stuff like this slips out your mouth (or fingers if typed) it reveals what is in your heart: if it isn’t condescention, it certainly sounds like it by the time it gets put into words.

This is my whole point in holding orthodox partly culpable for the persistence of the chasm between orthodox and their less-Catholic “heterodox” brothers. It gives the impression that you have condemned me in your heart, and consider my opinion less valuable than yours. That may not be the best strategy to follow if you actually wish to help bridge the gap rather than perpetuate it.
why would the orthodox “go away” (in your initial post, you stated that “Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready”) from the Church when they clearly follow her and are thus orthodox because of that?
This is really pretty simple. OK, let’s see if I can explain it AGAIN and this time so even you can understand. (oops I slipped. 😃 This is what I mean by a condescending ad hominem attack which will undoubtedly put you on the defensive and prevent you from understanding it this time around, too. 😉 )

OK, when a person talks to me like they’re better than me, and further questions why I don’t just go away since I’m not as Catholic as they are, then there are two things that happen.
  1. I wish they’d go away and quit bugging me because it’s my Church too and they can’t kick me out, and
  2. I turn around their logic against them to see if they can see how absurd it is that I should go away because I am too much of a sinner, and since I don’t believe all the right things, then if I am sufficiently worldly, I feel a need to retaliate. My question about why don’t liberals leave is an attempt, albeit ineffective it seems, to turn around the situation and ask the other person to look at themselves. We are in a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. The worst of us are the ones who Jesus came to save the most. I would think an intelligent “orthodox” Catholic would be able to make the intellectual leap to apply that reasoning to see the absurdity of telling someone, “you are not well, but since you do not know and accept everything that goes on in this entire hospital, then why do you seek treatment here at all?”
Also, as I mentioned, the term “liberal” is a confusing one and best not applied here, as one can be both liberal (in some areas at least) while remaining orthodox. The opposite of “orthodox” is “heterodox”. I take it that you are heterodox.
OK, if that term works better for you I’ll use it. I suppose I might be a heterodox. I don’t claim the Church is wrong on things. There are a few things I think are suspect, at least in all the contexts I’ve heard them in. One good thing to having my own belief system is that whenever I find a part of it to be wrong, I can easily change it because I control it rather than letting it control me.

There may be a day when I can say that I do fully agree with all the Church’s teachings, and support the magesterium 100%, or whatever. I’ll never get there if I go away now just because I’m not there yet.
It’s a reasonable thing to ask: if you don’t agree with the Church and (more importantly) have no intention of agreeing with her, why not leave for one that suits you? But what does this have to do with your answering my question?
To your first question, I’ll just brainstorm a bit.

First, about “having no intention of agreeing,” that may be technically true, but I also have no intention of continuing to disagree. Most people who try to explain things to me end up saying the same old, same old, which is not convincing. Every now and then someone says or does something, or things happen to me that I begin to realize the Church’s view and at least respect it, if not hold it myself quite yet. Therefore, I seldom “plan” to believe in something or against it. I simply do come to believe or disbelieve things as life unfolds itself for me. I believe the Holy Spirit has a handle on all this, and is even guiding this discussion. I believe there is a reason you and I are writing to each other that we may never know, or it may become obvious.

Back to the brainstorming. Because I like it here. Because there is no place that I find any better, and many are worse. Because I know nothing else and am afraid of the unknown. Because of social reasons. Because I am afraid to change in case I am wrong. Because I just can’t help it since I love the Church – I can’t explain why, I’m just helplessly attached to her. Even when I think she’s beating me up, I think I must have “battered Catholic syndrome.”
(continued)
 
(continued)
I don’t think you understand what certain terms like “orthodox” mean. “Orthodox”, for instance, is a description of someone who is faithful to the Magisterium. It relates specifically to whether or not a person is in accord with the Church.
I’m with you so far, insofar as we are using “in accord” as a measure of intellectual assent. Here, I mean to exclude “having greater faith” and the like from the measurement. Simply, on a checklist, we agree with Church teaching on everything, even in advance of knowing what it is. That is faith in the Church teachings, but I have talked myself into a bit of a corner here. Dare I ask, is intellectual assent to the Church the equivalent of faith in God?
It can be objectively measured: do you follow Church teaching in matters of faith and morals? Yes? Then you’re orthodox. No? Then you’re heterodox.
You have used an unfortunately absolute contruct here, resulting in all of us being heterodox unless one of us follows every Church teaching perfectly. Since we are all sinners, then join the club! Now we don’t have to fight because we are on the same side.

Just kidding. Perhaps I can offer a compromise wording:

It can be objectively measured: do you profess to agree intellectually with all Church teachings on faith and morals? If yes, then orthodox, if no, then heterodox (or worse.)
It isn’t a statement of “spiritual health”—an orthodox Catholic may have many, many struggles and at times be “spiritually sick”. Is an orthodox Catholic “more” Catholic than a heterodox Catholic? Well, in one sense, yes—here’s an analogy: if I subscribe to most of the Republican party’s platform and vote consistently for Republicans, I’m more of a Republican than someone who disagrees with most of the Republican platform and votes consistently for Democrats—even if that person says that they are a Republican. Why is that so difficult to accept? Don’t actions—not just words—mean something? It seems logical to me that to be “more” Catholic means to conform one’s life to the Catholic faith more and more.
I think I can see your analogy. My wife has had personal experience with this, having once flown to D.C. with the Eagle Forum “flying eagles” to lobby for pro-life and other conservative causes. When she talked to the aide of Senator Nancy Kassebaum, or liberal Republican senator at the time, she said her group would appreciate if Ms. Kassebaum would adhere closer to the party platform. The aide said the Ms. Kassebaum was an independent thinker, and voted on the merits of each issue. My wife followed up with, “then if you are independent, perhaps you should run as one since you do not represent the party.” The next answer was the most honest answer I’d heard in a long time; the aide said, “she runs as Republican because that’s what you have to be in this state to get elected.”

This gives me a glimpse as to what a “heterodox” might look like to a “orthodox” Catholic. Never fear though, as soon as I saw the problem just now I also received a consolation. The U.S. government is protected by its people electing its leaders based on popular vote. A candidate who misrepresents her views either by party affiliation or outright lies, threatens the integrity of the system, and could and very possibly will bring about the collapse of our system of government.

In the Church, we have the protection that the gates of hell will never prevail against her. It is not dangerous for a rank-and-file member to have heretical beliefs, because the Church will never adopt it as infallible truth. We don’t have to protect the Church from heretics. God will take care of that, as long as we continue to do our part which is not to judge. True faith in the Church would go beyond intellectual assent to the peace that the Church will never collapse, and other sinners inside and outside of the Church will not change that by anything they do or say. Unity comes from accepting each other first as dignified human beings, no better or worse than ourselves.

The other reason that “intellectual assent” doesn’t translate automatically into “more Catholic” is that there is more to being Catholic than that. Who is more Catholic, the good Samaritan, or the orthodox Catholic who walks on the other side of the path, or cajoles the injured man to get up without actually stooping down and getting dirty by touching him.

The disciples had the problem of trying to figure out which one was “better” than the other, perhaps “more Catholic” in the vernacular of this thread. Christ said it is the one who serves.

If the only act of mercy you do is inform the ignorant and admonish the sinner, and another person does all the rest but doesn’t do those two because of lack of intellectual assent, then who is more of a Catholic?

The question is by what scale do you measure someone’s Catholicity? Do you use the Church’s teachings which state that once baptized or accepted into the Church we are Catholic forever, or do you make up your own rules about who is “really” Catholic and who is not.

Back to the Star Bellied Sneetches, I’m afraid. Sorry. I’m not buying intellectual assent as an objective measure of Catholicity.
(continued)
 
(continued)
<regarding Catholic Church’s teachings on faith and morals> Since that belief is utterly foundational to Catholicism, it is logical to see it as a fixed point to which any group can measure itself against.
Utterly foundational? I was a cradle Catholic, poorly catechized, but eventually an avid reader of the Bible and seeker of whatever truth I could find, and I never heard of this assertion, or of apologetics at all until I was almost 40 years old. In the rank and file people who go to church, pay their tithe, engage in parish activities and leadership, people just don’t talk about these things the way we do on this forum.
Your model is lacking any objective truth by which the two “sides” can be measured against—you’re too busy pitting them against each other without any concept that one side might actually be closer to truth than the other, or that the possibility of a discrepancy in their positions relative to the truth is possible. You’ve made the conflict subjective and relative.
My model is to show the current state of affairs between to feuding sides, one of which seems to think the people on the other side are a problem. The other side’s members are anywhere from oblivious to resentful of this view, and are not likely to change their mind if they feel their integrity is attacked. Teaching and discussing is fine; condescention is not.

Now, you have revealed what I think is at the heart of the whole problem, as I see it. You are looking for an objective measure to compare the value of one subset of Catholics with another. Why do you wish to have such a ranking? When the apostles were trying to do this, Jesus told them “the greatest among you is the one who serves.” He didn’t say, “the greatest among you is the one who does the best job of following my commands in his own mind or the minds of others.”

Alan
 
40.png
Malachi4U:
Don’t blame me for the schism. I came home to Jesus and His Catholic Church. Blame the schismatics who refuse to come home. The Catholics didn’t break away, the Protestants did.😦
What use is assigning blame?

Why not just play the cards we’re dealt and do our best to work the problem from here?

Blaming them will only validate their schismatic opinions and show your own weakness. If you look down at them and condemn them in your heart, then yes, you are contributing to the perpetuation of the schism because your attitude and behavior will help keep them away.

Martin Luther is now dead, and nobody alive today was the root cause of the schism. They are victims of it. OK, so they may even be supporters of it but condemning and blaming them makes us supporters, too. “You’re going away? Good, then stay away – you are damaged goods anyway. If you want to change our minds about you, join us in condemning others like you and we will accept you again as if you were as good as us.”

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita,

I don’t have a lot of time this morning, but I’ll try to address as much of your post as possible.

You wrote: "“For the third time” is clearly an ad hominem attack intended to make me look stupid or unresponsive (perhaps I am being so but I honestly am not trying to be) which raises communication barriers, not lowers them. This is exactly the issue I was raising at what I hear when being spoken to by a self-proclaimed “orthodox.”

No, “for the third time” is meant to indicate that you haven’t answered my question despite my having asked it three times. If it reflects any emotion of mine, it reflects my frustration with not getting my question answered. That you take it as an insult, as condescension, as “intended to make me look stupid or unresponsive” indicates a willingness to be offended on your part.

As for being “self-proclaimed”----again, there is an objective standard here. If a person follows Church teaching, then they are objectively orthodox. If they don’t, they are objectively heterodox. I don’t need to “self-proclaim” my orthodoxy: it is simply a fact that can be discerned by my adherence to Church teaching.

You wrote: “It gives the impression that you have condemned me in your heart, and consider my opinion less valuable than yours. That may not be the best strategy to follow if you actually wish to help bridge the gap rather than perpetuate it.”

Wow—all I want is for you to answer my question, and you’ve gone on to decide what is in the content of my heart. I’m just going to ignore all of that, and concentrate instead on what you finally gave (thank you) as your answer:

You wrote: “1) I wish they’d go away and quit bugging me because it’s my Church too and they can’t kick me out.”

Well, this puts your position in an entirely different light than what your initial post indicated—you’re changing the nature of the statement. Your initial statement was, “Liberals wonder why orthodox don’t go away since they seem to be perfect all ready.”
I asked why the orthodox would go away from the Church, since it is their adherence to her teaching that makes them orthodox. I thought that you were honestly expressing an actual wonderment felt by the heterodox in seeing the orthodox stay in the Church, which was why I asked my question. But instead, you have answered a question I never asked: I never asked why YOU wished the orthodox would go away. I’m afraid you still haven’t answered my question, but have simply changed the format and inserted your personal problems into the matter.

I have to run now—I’ll try to respond to the rest tonight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top