Proof of Mary's sinless?

Dakota_Roberts · Jan 4, 2011

I’m trying to find how to prove to a Protestant that Mary lived a sinless life
Anyone know how? (It’s a Sola Scriptura Protestant.) Since it’s a dogma (right?) it should be doable.

rotlex · Jan 5, 2011

I am FAR from any type of apologist. Far from knowledgeable on any of these subjects, but, when I see this question or concern asked, or I have it asked of me myself, I find it rather disturbing.

I usually look at the person in all sincerity, and simply ask them why they would need any “proof” at all. Mary is the Mother of God. Why would anyone have to have proof, in any way shape of form, that she was sinless? Do they believe that God would not choose a perfect vessel for his only son to be brought forth into the world? Seems almost ludicrous to think otherwise no?

In the end, I generally ask them, nicely of course, if they are truly as strong in their faith as they believe they are. I am then sure to let them know I’ll include them in my prayers.

Dakota_Roberts · Jan 5, 2011

You see the person in question is 15, and he’s not sure where to go. I’ve been answering all his questions about the Catholic Church to show him we aren’t the bogey man his father portrays the Catholic Church (his dad is a Southern Baptist minister). I’ve got him over that and now he is genuinely interested in the Catholic Church so I want to be as nice as possible.

patricius79 · Jan 5, 2011

well, for one thing, there is no proof for Sola Scriptura, which is a self-contradictory idea, since its not in Scripture

and it is very easy to show that the early Church held Mary to be sinless, and that the ECFs show that the Catholic Church is the only Trinitarian Church which is historical–in contrast to protestantism–and is thus “the Pillar and Foundation of Truth” 1 Tim 3:15

SunshineRose1 · Jan 5, 2011

I’d point to the fact that Gabriel describes her as being “full of grace.” It’s hard to imagine that anyone who is full of grace would be sinful…

pablope · Jan 5, 2011

On the search area of the CAF website, type in Mary and Mary’s sinlessness. You will find several articles dealing with Mary. This is nothing new and has been answered before.

pablope · Jan 5, 2011

Here is a current tread on Mary, hope you can find answers from it too:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=525041

Hineni · Jan 5, 2011

APOSTOLIC LETTER
MULIERIS DIGNITATEM
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN
ON THE OCCASION
OF THE MARIAN YEAR

“It may be easy to think of this event in the setting of the history of Israel, the Chosen People of which Mary is a daughter, but it is also easy to think of it in the context of all the different ways in which humanity has always sought to answer the fundamental and definitive questions which most beset it. Do we not find in the Annunciation at Nazareth the beginning of that definitive answer by which God himself “attempts to calm people’s hearts”?17 It is not just a matter here of God’s words revealed through the Prophets; rather with this response “the Word is truly made flesh” (cf. Jn 1:14). Hence Mary attains a union with God that exceeds all the expectations of the human spirit. It even exceeds the expectations of all Israel, in particular the daughters of this Chosen People, who, on the basis of the promise, could hope that one of their number would one day become the mother of the Messiah. Who among them, however, could have imagined that the promised Messiah would be “the Son of the Most High”? On the basis of the Old Testament’s monotheistic faith such a thing was difficult to imagine. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit, who “overshadowed” her, was Mary able to accept what is “impossible with men, but not with God” (cf. Mk 10: 27)”.

They serve as a component as in both together as partners to help bring the promise to mankind. Wasn’t that the point in this verse:

“Second, men and women were instruments in the Lord’s redemption. Just as God allowed their participation in the covenants of old, so he permits their participation in the earthly life and work of the Redeemer. Because of Jesus’ unique personhood and natures—divine and human—no analogy between any man or woman is illustrative, and no man or woman may be compared. No matter how worthy a man or woman becomes because of his or her imitation of Christ, no matter how deserving a human being may be of dulia, latria is paid to God— Father, Son, and Spirit—alone”…

Now how does this same stands apply to Mary “since” the Angel Gabriel in his announcement to Mary (Luke 1:28) “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”. Understandable Mary needed a redeemer as did all of mankind but once the the Holy Spirit overshadow her (see Luke 1:30 and Luke 1:35) In the same flex we could see the Spirit of God commission to Moses to send him forth to deliver the Children of Israel from Egyptian bondage. The Holy Spirit’s power came upon Moses to accomplish that task. Moses went forth with the Holy Spirit’s power that had “rested” upon him, while the manifested presence of God remains behind at Mount Sinai & again-The Holy Spirit’s presence resides in the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle, but God’s power continued to rest upon Moses. But this empowerment from the Holy Spirit was not for Moses alone-for also for the 70 elders. As the tasks of leading the Children of Israel grew stronger, Moses needed help in overseeing the people. So God said, “gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel…And I will take of the spirit which is upon you, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you bear it not yourself alone.”–Numbers 11:16,17.

Does this make Moses less or more? or a Partner? To deliver the Israelite’s out of Egypt

Main point: And the Holy Spirit, being God, never changes. He is absolutely unchanging and unchangeable. The fact that the Holy Spirit (God’s Spirit) “rested” upon her (again, see Luke 1:28) would give us some facts that sin (original-the sin of Adam & Eve) was “no longer” a part or within her. As the NT-attests; Jesus Christ **“is” the “Ark” **- and if that be so, then what was contained within the ark? Wasn’t it the law? and the Manna (the bread from heaven)? The Bible describes the Ark as made of shittah-tree wood (acacia), known to the Egyptians as the Tree of Life-next question: “a tree of life to all who hold fast to it”

steve_b · Jan 5, 2011

This is a conversation going on in another thread with a protestant who opened the thread… Sooner than later, you will also get into these areas of conversation that follows, because of the topic, “Mary being sinless…” and remaining that way will draw objections by protestants.

Lk 1:28 “full of grace” is in the Greek perfect tense. Note post #47 for a discription of how perfect tense is identified in the Greek. Since Gabriel is the one delivering the greeting, and he can only give a message specifically from God, perfectly “full of grace” is how God sees Mary. Sin can’t be in someone who is perfectly full of grace.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7391672&postcount=18
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7394722&postcount=33
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7422655&postcount=46
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7422922&postcount=47

kepha1 · Jan 5, 2011

A simple argument goes like this:

None of the reformers believed that Mary was a sinner. So the question is, when did Protestants start believing she was? The 17th century? The 18th? No Protestant knows. They can’t tell you who the first was to start teaching this. And when did this heresy notion become popular in certain Protestant circles? In the last 50 years?

Since no Protestant knows the origin of this teaching, and we know it was never an issue during the so called reformation, it is reasonable to conclude it is a tradition of men, a falslehood, a lie.

A very good resource by Dave Armstrong

mdcpensive1 · Jan 5, 2011

Aproaching the subject with someone of the sola scriptura flavor can be daughting and challenging.
I would say that it is there in scripture but you have to have the eyes to see it. The bible was not written as a simple text of dogmas as some believe.

Knowing what parts of scripture to read is important and to pray and reflect on them to receive the graces to accept a deeper and fuller understanding of the topic.

My opinion is that this is where many protestants fall short in that they just want knowledge and fail many times to delve deeper into the mystery of Christ as presented in the Church and Scripture.

Understanding why there was a need for Mary is a beginning and what characteristics she must have had. Her Son crafted her from His own Being and that says a lot. She was without sin because Christ would not let His mother be under the influence of Satan and the world. She was a New Eve and meant to be better since she had to say YES when the old eve said NO. She was a recepticle of the living place of God and God in His goodness would have a fitting dwelling place that is stainless and immaculate. This means she had no original sin and as such she didn’t have the disordered tendencies to choose that which is of sin. She was made to be able to choose her will to be in line with our creator and show love as it should be shown.

Scripture has it that her foot will crush the head of satan in Revelation and she has the werewithall by God’s santifying graces to do just that by being what she was intended to be and answering YES for all of us. Her yes defeated Satan and she is the “Queen” as stated in Scripture.

mdcpensive1

Hineni · Jan 6, 2011

We find this same phrase with all the great prophets in the Hebrew bible (or Tanakh) - see different forms within Genesis 6 (New King James Version) 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.Genesis 6 (New International Version, ©2010) 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6 (New American Standard Bible) 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis (New Jerusalem Bible) But Noah won Yahweh’s favour. Genesis 6 (New Oxford Annotated bible).

Notice the difference in each bible - it all depends on which bible you use. You really have to check them out and compare, its true form. I like the Jerusalem bible and the the New Oxford - for the commentaries but sometimes you have to go a lot farther and read what some of the Catholic scholars have to say - saints. Sometimes, when dealing with another denomination - especially on the topic of Mary, you have to dig deep and also compare these statements with the Hebrew text (O.T) and Greek text, but getting at the root takes time.

Listing some passages from both Hebrew Bible (O.T) and the New Testament:

Article

Example: Genesis 6:8 “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
The first interpretation is connected to his second appearance, when Noah found favor in the eyes of The Lord, as written in Genesis 6:8-
“וְנֹחַ, מָצָא חֵן בְּעֵינֵי יְהוָה”

“And Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD”.

If we reverse the order of the letters, we can say that the meaning of Noah’s name is grace.

Next Patriarch - Abraham

Genesis 18:3 - He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.”

Romans 4:1 Romans 4 (New International Version, ©2010)

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Mary believed and trusted in God’s plan and it was counted toward her as an act of righteousness before God - 38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her. (Luke 1 (New International Version, ©2010))

Hineni · Jan 6, 2011

Making the comparison (again) -

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1 (King James Version))

Note the difference in the phrase and also notice how Mary submits or surrenders to the will of God. It would have been the equivalency of Abraham (even Noah) as being righteous (and as Paul tells us verse 5, “His faith is credited as righteousness.” Not his works or his love or even his fruit of faith, but his faith - his faith alone - is credited as righteousness)…As if Mary, like Abraham, when asked by God - to leave his homeland (which was a submission of his obedience and trust) in Genesis 12 to reside elsewhere to fulfill the promise that God had for his chosen people, in the same thought…7 “The LORD, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father’s household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, ‘To your offspring[a] I will give this land’

Romans 4 (King James Version)

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

another Patriarch was Isaac

Genesis 24: 2 Now Isaac had come from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev.
Genesis 25:11 After Abraham’s death, God blessed his son Isaac, who then lived near Beer Lahai Roi.

if you notice, Beer Lahai Roi - Hagar is the one who names that place*

Genesis 16: 13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

This phrase go farther to say “I have lived after seeing God” (see Ex 33:18-23 Moses was told he could not see God’s face and live)…

So how much more with Mary when the angel appears to her, to quote in verse 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."

Not only is Mary favored before God - God is “with Mary” - protecting her (Luke 1:28 "28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”), as with Isaac and also his father Abraham! Genesis 26 - God tells Isaac "3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; "

Another thought to the above:

The Holy Spirit “overshadowing” verses the Holy Spirit “comes upon you”? (again according to which bible you read) We all know that the Holy Spirit has many gifts:

Code:

* But to each one is given the manifestation of the (Holy) Spirit, -- that is, the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit -- for good and profit.
* And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
* The Holy Spirit displays God's power
* For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit.
* To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
* To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
* But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I don’t believe sin could have resided in Mary when the Spirit of God overshadowed her - it would be impossible. (Look toward Acts 2:1 - it would be within the same flex) To define overshadow would mean: exceed in importance; outweigh

steve_b · Jan 6, 2011

We’re not flipping back and forth between Hebrew and Greek translations.

Since the NT was written in Greek, that’s what we’re focusing on…
The word used in Lk 1:28 kecharitomene, AND the tense of the word used regarding Mary, is unique.
Charito… is the root for grace. dissected ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=288189&Pg=Forum7&Pgnu=2&recnu=38

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp

GreggAlvarez · Jan 6, 2011

Along with all the other things these people are saying, you can just watch the argument in progress on the site below. You can easily see the pitfalls they fall into in order to avoid the Immaculate Conception’s truth. A couple of them are:

They separate Jesus’ divinity from His humanity.
A new one is that humans cannot avoid sin unless they are God. This is clearly not the case.
One can be full of grace AND full of sin.
Here is a logical pitfall:
a. “All have sinned.”
b. Scripture says that Jesus did not sin.
c. Therefore, Jesus is the ONLY exception. (The word “ONLY” is completed unwarranted.
The walk by sight and not by faith when it comes to Scripture and doctrine. If they do not see it, then they do not believe it. It is weird though. “Mother of God” is not in the Bible and they do not believe it… Fine… BUT Mary sinning is not in the Bible and they DO believe it.

As you can see, there are many pitfalls for them. I am not saying it is easy to understand or even believe. But thse are just some of the pitfalls for arguing against.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7432448#post7432448

patricius79 · Jan 6, 2011

and of course to say that Mary must have sinned adds words to this book, thus contradicting the protestant interpretatio of Rev 22:18

elvisman · Jan 6, 2011

**The Greek word is *****kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28),***which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Eph. 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis.

Protestants often use Rom. 3 to try to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the notion that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
Luke 1:46-47
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

**This is one place where the Catholic Church *agrees *with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she was able to fall in. the fulfillment that was Mary HAD to be more perfect and holy that her OT type, the Ark of the Covenant. This is the case with NT fulfillments every single time.

In Rom. 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).
**Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”

Is that right?** How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”

**St. Paul was using *****inclusive *****language, as was the author of the Psalm. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the parade. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born.

Acts 1:18** says of Judas,* “… falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and ALL his insides spilled out.” Really? ***Did every, single one of his insides come out of his body, or was it just that much of his insides spilled out?

Non-Catholics will also point to Luke 2:22-24 as “proof” of Mary’s sinfulness:
“When the days were completed for their purification according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, just as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,” and to offer the sacrifice of “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons,” in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord.”

**Mary was a faithful, obedient Jewish girl that would have done everything that was required by the Law. This would include all of the dietary laws with their restrictions and observance of the Passover – just as Jesus did. It’s silly – and somewhat ignorant - to think that she would have done otherwise.

The Early Church Fathers overwhelmingly preached Mary’s sinlessness.

Tighty_Whitey · Jan 6, 2011

This is how I came to understand Mary’s sinlessness.

My friend pointed out John’s Gospel noting that, “In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and the word was in God.” (I’m paraphrasing)
That Jesus is the Word made Flesh
The Word was received by Moses in the Ten Commandments, those Ten Commandments were held in the Ark of the Covenant,
Mary is the perfect vessel, that is the Ark of the Covenant

Hope this helps.

neophyte · Jan 6, 2011

One of the problems is that although the dogma is supported by Scripture, it’s not totally unambiguous. The discussions ultimately end up with exchanges of “Your interpretation of the texts is flawed… no, your interpretations are flawed.”

I’ve never even managed to get any of them to admit that the Catholic position is acceptable within the ambiguity of the text.

Ultimately it comes back to a question of authority, and to whom did Christ give the authority to teach in his name.

patricius79 · Jan 6, 2011

right and the N.T Canon is not in Scripture per se, but derives exclusively from the Catholic Church’s Tradition and authority, historically.

Proof of Mary's sinless?

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