Proof that God is Good

  • Thread starter Thread starter joshrp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

joshrp

Guest
Hi,

I’ve been up all night on the computer, but I’ve been working my butt off. I came up with a proof that God is good. Here it is. Can you check it for me to see if it is true?

God is the best. No one is better than Him. If anything were better than Him, then that thing would be God, and He wouldn’t be. It seems silly, but it’s an irony that makes a point, and gets you to think about what God is, and why He is good. If anything else could be more good than God, that would be God, and God would not be God. If God is not good, then everything else in the universe is not good. Because God created everything that exists, besides Himself. If anything in the universe is good, then God must be good, because He created it. So the question is, is anything in the universe good? Well, love is good. Creativity is good. Justice is good. Hope is good. Faith is good. Mankind is good. Life is good. Beauty is good. Science is good. Art is good. Music is good. Poetry is good.

So God must be good.
 
joshrp said:
Hi,
Poetry is good.
Click to expand...
is it? …ah…well…but…let me just say…

You still have to demonstrate that our recognition of something being “good” isn’t merely subjective; that some value judgments actually point to a good which transcends the subjective opinion of the judge, as such that when we call it good we are in fact speaking of that which has its origins in objective reality.

I have the key. I could help you by applying my enormous intellect to your cause; but i am not going to, because i am “selfish”.😉

grrrrrrrr:mad:
 
Well, it’s just a matter of principles. Discover what a principle is and you can know anything, except for God Himself.
 
joshrp said:
Well, it’s just a matter of principles. Discover what a principle is and you can know anything, except for God Himself.
Click to expand...
Mind that I didn’t say you could know everything, I said you can know anything. Anything you want to know, you can know. God is the only thing you can’t know, because God is infinite and we are finite. There is no measurable relationship between the infinite and the finite.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
is it? …ah…well…but…let me just say…

You still have to demonstrate that our recognition of something being “good” isn’t merely subjective; that some value judgments actually point to a good which transcends the subjective opinion of the judge, as such that when we call it good we are in fact speaking of that which has its origins in objective reality.

I have the key. I could help you by applying my enormous intellect to your cause; but i am not going to, because i am “selfish”.😉

grrrrrrrr:mad:
Click to expand...
The subjective recognition of good points or is in itself or has subjacent (exists in English?), or has got as reference a criteria (to) a good, which ultimately comes from God. For God is not only objective but subjective, transcendent and immanent.

You have not what it takes to be selfish …grrrrrrrrrrrr:eek:
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
The subjective recognition of good points or is in itself or has subjacent (exists in English?), or has got as reference a criteria (to) a good, which ultimately comes from God. For God is not only objective but subjective, transcendent and immanent.

You have not what it takes to be selfish …grrrrrrrrrrrr:eek:
Click to expand...
Do you think he is subjectively or objectively selfish?
 
That is more akin to circular reasoning than any kind of “proof”. I hate bursting bubbles, but you typically read any books by people who disagree with your position? It would be impossible to withstand any kind of serious opposition with that proof.
 
WesternBlot said:
That is more akin to circular reasoning than any kind of “proof”. I hate bursting bubbles, but you typically read any books by people who disagree with your position? It would be impossible to withstand any kind of serious opposition with that proof.
Click to expand...
What opposition should I read?
 
Any prominent Atheist author I suppose. I read through The God Delusion twice (Richard Dawkins) and it was a great read. It gives you a good window into the typical way an atheist thinks and views major arguments for God’s existence etc.

I didn’t need that at the time because I had been an Atheist for 6 or 7 years, but to me it’s the first book I recommend to people who think they can convince any Atheist of God’s goodness. The answer is no, you can’t, only God can. I’m a firm believer in personal revelation being one of the only ways someone can truly be brought to God from that position, as that’s how it happened to me.
 
WesternBlot said:
Any prominent Atheist author I suppose. I read through The God Delusion twice (Richard Dawkins) and it was a great read. It gives you a good window into the typical way an atheist thinks and views major arguments for God’s existence etc.

I didn’t need that at the time because I had been an Atheist for 6 or 7 years, but to me it’s the first book I recommend to people who think they can convince any Atheist of God’s goodness. The answer is no, you can’t, only God can. I’m a firm believer in personal revelation being one of the only ways someone can truly be brought to God from that position, as that’s how it happened to me.
Click to expand...
Yea, I’ve thought about reading Dawkins, but wasn’t in the right mindset to really do so for a while. I didn’t really have a reason at the time. I figure since he is the most highly popular atheist of today, or at least one of the most popular, it would be good to read him. I do think these “proofs” are useful who do have some faith, but need the gaps filled in. I don’t think that anyone is completely faithless. Everyone believes in something. And if they believe in something, there is probably a grain of truth to it. I just try to appeal to something that they know is true, and see if I can break down some of their psychological barriers to belief.
 
I think before you can prove that God is good you would have to prove that God exists.

Also you would have to define what you mean by the word good.
 
Thanks that’s part of the point I was trying to make. If you haven’t proven God exists, then you can’t prove God is good.

However, if you’re starting with people who already believe in God, it can make more sense that way.

I’ll look at it especially close later, but I’m leaving for a 4 day mountain climb! God Bless.
 
I think that one way to illustrate the fallacies in the OP’s proof is to change just a few words as below. Note that I do not believe that the statements below constitute a good argument, indeed the fallacies are the same. If Joshrp thinks about how he would challenge the argument below, he’ll have a good idea of how someone might challenge his argument:

"God is the worst. No one is worse than Him. If anything were worse than Him, then that thing would be God, and He wouldn’t be. It seems silly, but it’s an irony that makes a point, and gets you to think about what God is, and why He is evil. If anything else could be more evil than God, that would be God, and God would not be God. If God is not evil, then everything else in the universe is not evil. Because God created everything that exists, besides Himself. If anything in the universe is evil, then God must be evil, because He created it. So the question is, is anything in the universe evil? Well, murder is evil. Torture is evil. Theft is evil. Unmitigated and pointless pain is evil. Slavery is evil. Famine is evil. Rape is evil. War is evil. Plague is evil. Cancer is evil. Paedophilia is evil . Racism is evil.

So God must be evil."

You could do the same with any attribute: hot, red, wise, stupid, glorious, abject, soft, hard, aloof, boring, chaotic, changeable, short-lived (!) …

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
hecd2 said:
I think that one way to illustrate the fallacies in the OP’s proof is to change just a few words as below. Note that I do not believe that the statements below constitute a good argument, indeed the fallacies are the same. If Joshrp thinks about how he would challenge the argument below, he’ll have a good idea of how someone might challenge his argument:

"God is the worst. No one is worse than Him. If anything were worse than Him, then that thing would be God, and He wouldn’t be. It seems silly, but it’s an irony that makes a point, and gets you to think about what God is, and why He is evil. If anything else could be more evil than God, that would be God, and God would not be God. If God is not evil, then everything else in the universe is not evil. Because God created everything that exists, besides Himself. If anything in the universe is evil, then God must be evil, because He created it. So the question is, is anything in the universe evil? Well, murder is evil. Torture is evil. Theft is evil. Unmitigated and pointless pain is evil. Slavery is evil. Famine is evil. Rape is evil. War is evil. Plague is evil. Cancer is evil. Paedophilia is evil . Racism is evil.

So God must be evil."
Click to expand...
Your post was amusing; however it misses the point. If you admit that there is truly evil in the world as we experience it, as opposed to mere indifference, then you must also admit that a perfectly good God exists, since it is only through the ultimate existence of good that evil has any meaning; especially given the fact that evil by definition is a privation of good.

The OP’s argument has only one flaw; he has not demonstrated that there is any objectively meaningful sense of good or evil in the world. In order for the argument to work the atheist has to presuppose that human actions have objective moral value. Otherwise one cannot meaningfully say that rape is evil.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
If you admit that there is truly evil in the world as opposed to mere indifference, then you must also admit that a perfectly good God exists.
Click to expand...
I certainly do not have to admit any such thing and I do not.

And read the same “argument” starting with “God is the hottest” or “God is the most chaotic” filling in the blanks. It’s a monumentally bad argument, anD I have such a respect for you that I expect that you’ll see it.
The OP’s argument has only one flaw; he has not demonstrated that there is any objectively meaningful sense of good or evil in the world. in order for the argument to work the atheist has to presuppose that human actions have objective moral value.
Click to expand...
Even if he could demonstrate objective morality, the argument as it stands is still flawed in logic and doesn’t begin to show that God is good. God must be good because there is good in the universe fails because you can apply exactly the same argument with equal validity to every known attribute of the universe.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top