Proof that LDS is false

[Chazemataz]

Although I wholeheartidly disagree on what he has to say on Catholics, there is still some very valuable information on Christianity. Here is proof that Mormonism is false: carm.org/mormon.htm

Also, I dare all of you LDS members who are reading this to look at www.josephlied.com.

 

[DeFide]

Chazemataz:

Although I wholeheartidly disagree on what he has to say on Catholics, there is still some very valuable information on Christianity. Here is proof that Mormonism is false: carm.org/mormon.htm

Also, I dare all of you LDS members who are reading this to look at www.josephlied.com.

Are you referring to this part?:

Mormonism teaches an infinite regression of causes. This means that it teaches that each god was made a god by a previous god. This means that as far back as you look in time, this process has always been occurring. This means that from an infinity of time in the past, the Mormon plan of exaltation (become gods) has been in effect. The only problem is that this is logically impossible. Since it is logically impossible, this means that Mormonism is false. Let’s look closer.
There cannot be an infinite regression of causes. It is logically impossible. Why? Because you can not cross an infinity.
In other words, in order for us to get to the present state of this god on this planet, there would have had to be an infinite number of exaltations in the past. But, this cannot be because in order to get to the present, you would have to transverse an infinity of exaltations and that is impossible since you cannot transverse an infinity – if you could cross (transverse) an infinity of time, then it isn’t infinite. Therefore, the Mormon system of infinite regressions of exaltations to godhood is impossible and Mormonism is proven false.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Chazemataz:

Although I wholeheartidly disagree on what he has to say on Catholics, there is still some very valuable information on Christianity. Here is proof that Mormonism is false: carm.org/mormon.htm

Also, I dare all of you LDS members who are reading this to look at www.josephlied.com.

Do you think that if we read anti-mormon literature it will just dawn on us that we are wrong and you are right? Do you read anti-Catholic literature and see the light? I think not. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you read all of the positive books about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Do you compare the positive with the negative, or did you just come across this one site or two and decide that is proof positive that Mormonism is false? Do another post when you have read the Book of Mormon, then decide using factual information instead of hate literature. What if I read all anti-Catholic information and formed my opinion of your Church by the many anti-ravings available on the web and in bookstores to proove you are wrong. Actually, I am not out to prove anyone wrong, it is our God-given right to believe what we wish to believe and I am not going to tell you your religion is wrong(although I personally believe it is) I would never tear down your leaders or you right to believe. I respect your Church and you and will not stoop to hate mongers to give me information. I will judge your church on its members and how they treat others, and how they live the commandments of God. BJ

 

[tkdnick]

BJ,

I took a quick look through both of those websites, and never saw anything “anti-mormon”. In fact, the CARM website goes to great lengths to talk about what great people LDS are.

 

[Paul_G]

I’m sure these people are very nice when they are at home too, but it is still spin doctoring to fit their theological view. They are welcome to do that,people are welcome to believe them, most of other faiths want to believe them indeed they need to believe them. It might be scary thought for some to even admit there might be a hint of truth in what we teach.

So those of us that study these things out, all we can do is smile (well some of us do). It is hurtful however when you see new members, young in their faith, being enticed by some of the provocative stories on these sites. Oh yes they say, show us where we said falsehood, show us documentation.

It is like some anti Catholic sites that say Catholics agree with the principle of cannibalism because of the Eucharist. I find their remarks repugnant and disrespectful. They take a truth and add a little modern politically correct Christian thought, and play it to their cheering audience. They want to hear it; they need to hear it.

Paul

 

[Casen]

The very title of this thread is silly. You can’t PROVE a religion is false OR true. You can’t prove that Jesus is the Savior of the world for that matter. These are items of faith.

And I do find it a bit presumptuous of someone to lazily surf upon a religions anti-(fill in religion) website and think that they suddenly know something that the millions of members of that faith haven’t heard. The same anti-mormon material gets recycled over and over again just like the same anti-catholic material gets recycled over and over again and never seems to die. And just like every anti-catholic argument may have a logical explanation so do all the anti-mormon arguments. I don’t really see any point in bashing a person’s religion and it’s not an effective way to make converts either.

 

[Chazemataz]

BJ Colbert:

Do you think that if we read anti-mormon literature it will just dawn on us that we are wrong and you are right? Do you read anti-Catholic literature and see the light? I think not. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you read all of the positive books about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Do you compare the positive with the negative, or did you just come across this one site or two and decide that is proof positive that Mormonism is false? Do another post when you have read the Book of Mormon, then decide using factual information instead of hate literature. What if I read all anti-Catholic information and formed my opinion of your Church by the many anti-ravings available on the web and in bookstores to proove you are wrong. Actually, I am not out to prove anyone wrong, it is our God-given right to believe what we wish to believe and I am not going to tell you your religion is wrong(although I personally believe it is) I would never tear down your leaders or you right to believe. I respect your Church and you and will not stoop to hate mongers to give me information. I will judge your church on its members and how they treat others, and how they live the commandments of God. BJ

Yes I have read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, and all other LDS publications. I used to BEa Later-Day Saint. Untill I saw the fact that Joseph Smith lied about the Book Of Abraham, and about the Kinderhook plates and other things. I was just upset at the lies I was believing. In my opinion that is proof enough for me that Mormonism is not the true religion. I had this “testemony of the Holy Spirit”, yet you cannot trust feelings (Jer. 17:9). The Book Of Mormon may be true. I do not know. In Fact, as a work of literature it is my favorite book, it is very exciting and neat and about people who show true devotion to God. It has many great morals to be learned. In fact, it contradicts Mormon teaching!

The Book of Mormon: There is only one God
Mosiah 15:1,5; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21

LDS Church: there are many gods.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5

They say the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, then why doesnt it tell about and contradict LDS teachings such as:

Church organization
Plurality of Gods
Plurality of wives doctrine
Word of Wisdom
God is an exalted man
Celestial marriage
Men may become Gods(one of the main reasons why i miss being Mormon, this promise sounded interseting and exciting to me especially after playing my favorite game Black and White which is a God simulator)
Three degrees of glory
Baptism for the dead
Eternal progression
The Aaronic Priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood

Even after all of this, I still dissaprove of calling Mormonism a “cult”. Even Jehoavh’s Witnesses. That is just too ignorant. To me a cult is one that consists of 50 memebers and goes around wearing black cloaks chanting and using Magick and sacrificing little kids, and then shooting themsleves.

Not only that, but I have come to the conclusion that it is false because of my own reaserch into the Book Of Abraham and its origin, and also from comparing on how the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints contradicts its own SCRIPTURE! If you can say that I would not go to Hell for believing in their false doctrines, then I will go right back because I loved it; it matched many of my personal beleifs about how religion should be. God Bless and forgive me for acting ignorant. And yes, he is right; LDS members are great people. I can tell you are. P.S. show me one fact that dissaproves Catholicism. Most of them can be easily argued. Now that I think about it this was pretty stupid of me to post this entire thread. I should have at least stated it more politely. I wish we could edit our posts (I cant for some reason, after I post the thread the “edit” button dissapears. Is it supposed to?

 

[Chazemataz]

DeFide:

Are you referring to this part?:

Mormonism teaches an infinite regression of causes. This means that it teaches that each god was made a god by a previous god. This means that as far back as you look in time, this process has always been occurring. This means that from an infinity of time in the past, the Mormon plan of exaltation (become gods) has been in effect. The only problem is that this is logically impossible. Since it is logically impossible, this means that Mormonism is false. Let’s look closer.
There cannot be an infinite regression of causes. It is logically impossible. Why? Because you can not cross an infinity.
In other words, in order for us to get to the present state of this god on this planet, there would have had to be an infinite number of exaltations in the past. But, this cannot be because in order to get to the present, you would have to transverse an infinity of exaltations and that is impossible since you cannot transverse an infinity – if you could cross (transverse) an infinity of time, then it isn’t infinite. Therefore, the Mormon system of infinite regressions of exaltations to godhood is impossible and Mormonism is proven false.

Not just that. I am not a stupid person. one measly paragraph wont change the way I look at things. I did much reaserch before converting back into the Catholic faith (I was only gone for about 7 months, I was convinced by www.Farms.org and www.fair-lds.org who answered all of my questions saitsfying me). These are just the two websites that helped me to see the falsehoods of Mormonism the most. If you talk about the Book of Abraham and the BoM contradicting the LDS Church most Mormons will be speachless. They used an odd excuse, the one they gave me was “Joseph Smith was simply revealed something different than what was written on that papyrus because of God”.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Chazemataz,
I can tell from your last post that you are sincere and so I apologize if my tone was less than respectful. I think if you have indeed studied it out in your own mind and come to the conclusion you have reached with great thought. You probably should not have joined the Mormon Church at all, as you were not really converted. If you don’t have faith then no amount of discussion will make a difference. If you do have faith then nothing will shake it. I believe that Jesus Christ lives and that He is my redeemer, nothing can shake that faith in God. No athiest, or anti-Christ will ever convince me otherwise.
In the same way I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. is a prophet and that he was used by God to restore the true church as it was established by Jesus Christ with all of the keys of the priesthood, both aronic and melchizedek.
I have never heard some of the things that are anti-mormon until I came to this forum to find info for my Catholic husband. It has been a great education, but has only strengthened my faith. I figure if someone is going to such great lengths, time and effort to destroy the LDS Church, something must bother them tremendously. I personally don’t have time to research the anti-Catholic literature and would not do so if I did have the time. Why would I want to prove it wrong. To 1.1 Billion or so, it is the truth as they know it.
To a measley 12 million LDS the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith and Gordon B. Hinckley are prophets. I have faith that this is true, and you have faith that the Catholic church is true.
It is all based on faith. BJ

 

[DeFide]

BJ Colbert:

Chazemataz,
. If you do have faith then nothing will shake it…
…It is all based on faith. BJ

(slightly off topic)

BJ,

I know you do not like to enter too far into discussions, and I respect that you must have your reasons for that. But I’d like to leave you with some questions for you to consider on your own and that I don’t expect a reply to:

1.) Are faith & reason friends or enemies?

2.) Is it possible to put your faith in the wrong thing?

3.) If yes to #2, then isn’t it obligatory in good conscience to abandon faith if it is misplaced?

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#I

1 Tim 1:18-19.

 

[DeFide]

Casen:

The very title of this thread is silly. You can’t PROVE a religion is false OR true. You can’t prove that Jesus is the Savior of the world for that matter. These are items of faith.

.

It depends on your definition of “prove”. If I have a religious belief that a solid lead ball always floats in water and have never tried it out, can it be shown otherwise? Of course. Does it mean I’ll accept the evidence given? Perhaps not. Does that mean it wasn’t proven? Were back to the first sentence.

 

[Chazemataz]

BJ Colbert:

Chazemataz,
I can tell from your last post that you are sincere and so I apologize if my tone was less than respectful. I think if you have indeed studied it out in your own mind and come to the conclusion you have reached with great thought. You probably should not have joined the Mormon Church at all, as you were not really converted. If you don’t have faith then no amount of discussion will make a difference. If you do have faith then nothing will shake it. I believe that Jesus Christ lives and that He is my redeemer, nothing can shake that faith in God. No athiest, or anti-Christ will ever convince me otherwise.
In the same way I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. is a prophet and that he was used by God to restore the true church as it was established by Jesus Christ with all of the keys of the priesthood, both aronic and melchizedek.
I have never heard some of the things that are anti-mormon until I came to this forum to find info for my Catholic husband. It has been a great education, but has only strengthened my faith. I figure if someone is going to such great lengths, time and effort to destroy the LDS Church, something must bother them tremendously. I personally don’t have time to research the anti-Catholic literature and would not do so if I did have the time. Why would I want to prove it wrong. To 1.1 Billion or so, it is the truth as they know it.
To a measley 12 million LDS the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith and Gordon B. Hinckley are prophets. I have faith that this is true, and you have faith that the Catholic church is true.
It is all based on faith. BJ

I will pray to have the strong faith that you have. Likeiwse, my little journey in and out of the LDS Church has only strengthened my Catholic faith! It is weird but now I am even more sure that the Catholic faith is the true one. Still, the thought of a “Great Apostasy” does indeed disturb me a little. What if it really did happen? If somebody can unvcover proof that it happened, then I will go back to being LDS. But remeember, the reason I left (and came back) was because of the lies I believe Joseph Smith told. Like I said, find irrefutable proof of the Great Apostasy and I will leave the Catholic Church and won’t look back. For me now my faith is rather shaky, as you can probably tell. I need to read things like those websites to reasure myself that I made the right choice.` For me, religion is more about finding the Truth, which resides in Jesus Christ.

 

[DeFide]

Chazemataz:

I will pray to have the strong faith that you have. Likeiwse, my little journey in and out of the LDS Church has only strengthened my Catholic faith! It is weird but now I am even more sure that the Catholic faith is the true one. Still, the thought of a “Great Apostasy” does indeed disturb me a little. .

(somewhat off-topic)
Chazemataz,

You may be interested in this article by Tim Staples:

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/staplesnogreatapostasy.html

 

[Casen]

DeFide,
I’d like to answer your questions even though they weren’t addressed to me:

1.) Are faith & reason friends or enemies?

NO, although what seems reasonable may change as we learn, grow, etc. Remember, it once seemed unreasonable to believe the earth was round. Do you think 500 years ago the concept of electricity, TV, internet, automobiles, airplanes, etc. seemed reasonable?! Maybe for a few but to most those ideas would have seemed preposterous!

2.) Is it possible to put your faith in the wrong thing?

Yes, hence there are so many religions. Everyone can’t be right, even if most are sincere.

3.) If yes to #2, then isn’t it obligatory in good conscience to abandon faith if it is misplaced?

Yes, but how to know if it’s misplaced?

I read the Book of Mormon at age 17 and then prayed to ask God if it was true and God clearly told me it was true in an unmistakable manner, not just a “good feeling” but a clear and undeniable personal sign from heaven that it was true. So, what was I to do with that knowledge? I can’t prove to anyone else that it is true even though I personally know it is. To you Joseph Smith’s stories of gold plates, angels visiting the earth, modern prophets, etc. may seem very unreasonable but after a diving manifestation from God those things suddenly seem VERY reasonable. For that reason whatever dirt can be thrown my direction never sticks. I suspect those that fell away from my church never had such an experience and that’s why when questions or doubts came alone they fell by the wayside and chose another path.

So, I guess we’re back where we started. In any case, my goal here isn’t to disparage anyone else’s religion or faith, only to defend my own when it is attacked or mischaracterized.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

(slightly off topic)

BJ,

I know you do not like to enter too far into discussions, and I respect that you must have your reasons for that. But I’d like to leave you with some questions for you to consider on your own and that I don’t expect a reply to:

1.) Are faith & reason friends or enemies?

2.) Is it possible to put your faith in the wrong thing?

3.) If yes to #2, then isn’t it obligatory in good conscience to abandon faith if it is misplaced?

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#I

1 Tim 1:18-19.

Sometimes I don’t enter deep into discussions, because I am not an apologist and do not have the book knowledge to answer questions. I leave that to Casen and other Mormons who have more knowledge than I do. When they answer the questions I simply sit back and there is nothing more to be said about the topic.

1. I believe faith and reason are friends.
2. Yes it is possible to put your faith in the wrong thing.
3. Yes, if you find through study and prayer that you have misplaced your faith and you are led another direction that you know without a shadow of doubt is true, then you should follow that direction. It has taken me 20 years to come back to the true church, and nothing can shake my faith now. The shaking came long ago and I have come home.
   BJ

 

[Tmaque]

Casen:

I read the Book of Mormon at age 17 and then prayed to ask God if it was true and God clearly told me it was true in an unmistakable manner, not just a “good feeling” but a clear and undeniable personal sign from heaven that it was true. So, what was I to do with that knowledge? I can’t prove to anyone else that it is true even though I personally know it is. To you Joseph Smith’s stories of gold plates, angels visiting the earth, modern prophets, etc. may seem very unreasonable but after a diving manifestation from God those things suddenly seem VERY reasonable. For that reason whatever dirt can be thrown my direction never sticks. I suspect those that fell away from my church never had such an experience and that’s why when questions or doubts came alone they fell by the wayside and chose another path.

So, I guess we’re back where we started. In any case, my goal here isn’t to disparage anyone else’s religion or faith, only to defend my own when it is attacked or mischaracterized.

Casen,

Why do you suppose that God gives some people (like you) the certain knowledge they pray for and leaves others completely in the dark? What kind of a God gives one answer to one sincere prayerful person, and a completely different answer to another sincere prayerful person?

The whole notion that one can “know” truth through something as objective as a feeling, or something so arbitary as a coincidental incident, smacks of self-importance and self-righteousness. It suggests that non-LDS are somehow not quite as sincere, not quite as determined, not quite as good as LDS. While the notion of inherent LDS spiritual superiority is certainly not overtly taught, it most certainly is believed and felt if one believes that God can tell you which church is true simply by giving you a feeling.

 

[tkdnick]

Tmaque:

Casen,

Why do you suppose that God gives some people (like you) the certain knowledge they pray for and leaves others completely in the dark? What kind of a God gives one answer to one sincere prayerful person, and a completely different answer to another sincere prayerful person?

The whole notion that one can “know” truth through something as objective as a feeling, or something so arbitary as a coincidental incident, smacks of self-importance and self-righteousness. It suggests that non-LDS are somehow not quite as sincere, not quite as determined, not quite as good as LDS. While the notion of inherent LDS spiritual superiority is certainly not overtly taught, it most certainly is believed and felt if one believes that God can tell you which church is true simply by giving you a feeling.

If I may piggy back on this…

Acts 17:11 applauds the Bereans for searching the scriptures (studying) to see if what they were taught was true.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Tmaque:

Casen,

Why do you suppose that God gives some people (like you) the certain knowledge they pray for and leaves others completely in the dark? What kind of a God gives one answer to one sincere prayerful person, and a completely different answer to another sincere prayerful person?

The whole notion that one can “know” truth through something as objective as a feeling, or something so arbitary as a coincidental incident, smacks of self-importance and self-righteousness. It suggests that non-LDS are somehow not quite as sincere, not quite as determined, not quite as good as LDS. While the notion of inherent LDS spiritual superiority is certainly not overtly taught, it most certainly is believed and felt if one believes that God can tell you which church is true simply by giving you a feeling.

I think it is a matter of how sincerely you are seeking the answer. Any sincere person will receive answers to prayers.  When I pray about matters where I already have a preconceived idea of what I want, I am not open to the Holy Spirit's guidance and I am left without any feeling one way or the other.

If I pray with an open mind and listen for the answer, I usually get one.
For instance, with my husband’s health issues. He was near death and the doctors were not doing anything to change things. I was praying constantly and our druggest asked what was going on with my husband, since I was there twice a week asking for new medications. I told him and he said go with your gut feeling. I did and took my husband to emergency where he was saved by brain surgery and ended up paralyzed on the right side, but I believe the episode with the druggest was an answer to my prayers.
I think sometimes we do not recognize the answers we receive, because they are not in the form of an angel appearing and giving us some glorious message. They are in the form of a still small voice that testifies the truth to your soul. If you shake it off and do not listen, that is your choice. If you listen, and study, your faith grows and you reach a point where you know beyond a shadow of doubt that what you have asked about is true.
By the way, reading Casen’s answer to number 1, has caused me to rethink and I agree with him on reason and faith.
BJ

 

[Casen]

Tmaque said: Why do you suppose that God gives some people (like you) the certain knowledge they pray for and leaves others completely in the dark?

I really don’t know. Why are some people blessed with certain gifts of the spirit and others are not? Why are some people healed when they pray and others are not? Why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. I don’t have any idea.

But do you believe in a living God that answers our prayers or not? Are the heavens closed or are they open??

I prayed and got an answer (and it wasn’t a “feeling” as you suggested). You can try to cheapen it or disparage it or say I imagined it but that doesn’t negate the experience. I don’t think sharing a personal spiritual experience “smacks of self-righteousness” as you suggest. I don’t think I’m special. If someone else shares a personal experience they’ve had with me I don’t get offended or call them self-righteous. God works in mysterious ways and answers prayers in different ways. As an LDS missionary we invited people to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. Many did and many joined the church. For that reason I don’t think my experience was so unique; special to me, but not unique.

 

[Tmaque]

BJ Colbert:

I think it is a matter of how sincerely you are seeking the answer. Any sincere person will receive answers to prayers. When I pray about matters where I already have a preconceived idea of what I want, I am not open to the Holy Spirit’s guidance and I am left without any feeling one way or the other.
If I pray with an open mind and listen for the answer, I usually get one.
For instance, with my husband’s health issues. He was near death and the doctors were not doing anything to change things. I was praying constantly and our druggest asked what was going on with my husband, since I was there twice a week asking for new medications. I told him and he said go with your gut feeling. I did and took my husband to emergency where he was saved by brain surgery and ended up paralyzed on the right side, but I believe the episode with the druggest was an answer to my prayers.
I think sometimes we do not recognize the answers we receive, because they are not in the form of an angel appearing and giving us some glorious message. They are in the form of a still small voice that testifies the truth to your soul. If you shake it off and do not listen, that is your choice. If you listen, and study, your faith grows and you reach a point where you know beyond a shadow of doubt that what you have asked about is true.
By the way, reading Casen’s answer to number 1, has caused me to rethink and I agree with him on reason and faith.
BJ

BJ,

Your answer proves my point. What you’re saying is that all those people who sincerely prayed about the LDS faith and didn’t get an affirmative answer were not (in your own words) “sincerely …seeking the answer” That is an extremely self righteous an arrogant way of thinking. How can you or anyone else suggest to me that I am not sincere in my search for truth?? Leaving the LDS faith was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. All I wanted was truth! If you knew me and what I’ve gone through, to say that I was/am not sincere in my search for truth is really ridiculous. Thanks for proving my point.