"Proof" that Mary was a sinner?

[gomer_tree]

I received an interesting argument from someone who said that it proved that Mary was a sinner when Jesus rebuked her after finding Him in the temple. According to his argument, her lack of recognition of the situation was a sin, or something like that.

Now, you don’t have to tell me how weak this is… I mean, a panicky mother looking for her lost son is sinful if she is anything less than omniscient? But no logical argument I could muster swayed his opinion.

It’s amazing to me the time and energy people use to try and come up with anti-Marian arguments. And they say that we are taking away from Christ because of our focus on Mary!

 

[SwissGuard]

Vrummage…Great post!That’s a lot of helpful information in there.

It’s pretty sad that the mother of Jesus is such a subject of division among Christians.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

tickleme_kristi:

God chose the perfect mother for his perfect son. In order to do that Mary was saved before the cross, God is out side of time, he can extend his saving grace as he pleases. He gave Mary her grace so that the world may receive his!

I am puzzled why so many non-catholics have a struggle with Mary, They accept the fact that God created Adam and Eve free of sin, (immaculate creation). but don’t seem to accept the fact that God created the Mother of His Son sin free, Immaculate Conception. The Angel said to Mary, “Hail FULL of Grace”.

 

[Maddalena]

2 things:

1, the “sin offering” was specifically to make her “clean” again after her first period following birth. Since Christ carried to term naturally (though born supernaturally), Mary would still have had to be “purified of her blood” (Lev 12:5)after her first periord following pregnancy.

2, Joseph was making the offering as well, and was sinful just like the rest of us

Hope this helps.

Why would she need to be made clean, and why would she have to be purified of her blood? I don’t understand. ^_^;;;

 

[gomer_tree]

Maddalena:

Why would she need to be made clean, and why would she have to be purified of her blood? I don’t understand. ^_^;;;

It was simply the Law of the time. It’s really as simple as that. Read Leviticus, and you’ll see a whole list of things that make a person “clean” and “unclean.” It isn’t a statement of sin, it is a statement of being presentable to the Lord.

 

[_MM]

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin. Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else. For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin. So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible. Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.
Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus. The apostles never rayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point. Its all about HIM, not her!

 

[Shiann]

~MM:

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin. Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else.

Of course she needed Jesus. It was his Sacrifice which made her Immaculate Conception possible.

For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin.

Adam and Eve were born without Original sin- just as Mary. They chose to disregard God’s Will for their own. Mary’s part in our salvation, was to accept God’s Will under the same circumstances. It was her perfect obedience which made Christ’s comming possible.

So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible. Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.

Please reference where Mary being sinless would contradict the bible.

Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus. The apostles never rayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point. Its all about HIM, not her!

That’s a nice opinion, but without fact- it still is just opinion.

BTW- Catholics do not “pray” to Mary. We ask for her intercession, as we ask all those in God’s beatific vision to pray for us.

 

[E.E.N.S]

~MM:

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin. Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else. For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin. So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible. Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.
Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus. The apostles never rayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point. Its all about HIM, not her!

~MM, I welcome you as a brother in Christ, however I believe you can easy enough the answers you are looking for to your “shotgun” types posts recently. There have been plenty of posts dealing with this topic (as well as the others that you have recently replied to) that are far more recent than these year old posts you have dug up.
Being an ex-RCC you seem to have quite the misunderstanding of Mary. You mentioned in your post that it is all about HIM - you are correct, and you should also know that all proper Marian devotion is Christ-centered. Mary points to Christ always.

God bless.

 

[LSK]

(Hi, everyone, I’m a Catholic convert after 46 years of evangelical Protestantism.)

Ask your friend what difference it will make to Jesus’ work of salvation (death, burial, resurrection) if Mary was indeed sinless. Will it make a difference in your friend’s personal salvation?

He/she will ask you why Mary didn’t die on the cross instead of Jesus.

The answer is that Mary is fully human, like Jesus, but not fully Divine, like Jesus. He was the Perfect Sacrifice.

I think it’s interesting that in Matthew 5:48, Jesus commands us to be perfect. So why are Protestant Christians so surprised when someone (Mary) actually obeys Jesus and is perfect? Do we think Jesus was just making a nice suggestion to all of us?

Thank you so much for this!

 

[LSK]

~MM:

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin. Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else. For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin. So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible. Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.
Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus. The apostles never rayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point. Its all about HIM, not her!

Actually you are correct about the Bible being clear - but your conclusions are incorrect. Mary, as the new Ark of the Covenant, remained sinless and perpetually obedient as per Holy Scripture, both OT and NT.

Perhaps you need to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for guidance in this area. Good luck and I hope you find your way home to full communion with God’s True Church soon!

 

[Della]

~MM:

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin. Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else. For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin. So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible. Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.

How would this contradict the Bible? The proper understanding of the Bible, that is, not what you’ve been told by those who don’t understand a thing about how, when, where or why the Church (which gave us the Bible, btw), means by Mary having been immaculately conceived and remaining without sin. If you did understand you would know that these teachings of the Church about Mary give support to Christ’s divinity and to his fulfilling of his promises. You really ought to put some time and effort into learning about what the Church actually teaches before talking about it.

Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus. The apostles never rayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point. Its all about HIM, not her!

Well, considering we Catholics don’t idolize Mary nor think of her as greater than Jesus nor think she wanted all the attention, you are in line with what we believe.

But, how do YOU know that the apostles never prayed to Mary (prayed meaning asked for something–not even a bowl of soup?), or sought Mary’s advice (didn’t she say “Do whatever he tells you”?), nor went to Mary for a reference point (who do you think told Matthew and Luke all about Jesus’ childhood?)? Where is that in the Bible? Um?

 

[Philthy]

~MM:

The Bible is/was/will forvever be clear, ALL mankind, save Jesus was wiith sin.

Are you talking about original sin or actual (ie due to an act) sin? Just out of curiosity, where do you believe this to be explicitly stated - that every man, woman and child ever created was with sin?

Including Mary. What was her sin…who cares…she was a sinner and had need of Jesus like anyone else.
Where is this stated explicitly?
For if Mary was w/o sin, she would be the first on earth, for Adam and Eve did both sin.
So what
So this would mean Mary and Jesus were the only to have ever existed without sin. This would contradict the Bible.
Says you - please prove it.
Mary was in need of redemption prior to her earthly life and she received that redemption from her Son, prior to her earthly life. There is no contradiction

Now this speaks no less of Mary, for her sacriafice and giving was great. She is to be honored for what she did.
Now, as far as the prayers and “idolizing” of Mary…well< I just can’t seem to picture Jesus’ mother crying, “Look at me, it all me”, for had not the Lord touched her, chose her, and used her, you would never know her. She always pointed back to Jesus, listen to Jesus.

She continues to point back to Jesus and that is her value. People can make her into a stumbling block through idolatry, but that is not Catholicism. The same could be said for music at a service - it could become a stumbling block.

The apostles never prayed to mary, sought Mary’s advice, went to Mary for a reference point.

How would you know any of these things?

Phil

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

Papist:

I got hit up by a protestant friend, saying he had biblical proof that Mary was a sinner, one which I had not heard before. It goes something like this;

In Luke 2:24, it says that Mary and Joseph offered “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons”, in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord. This dictate comes from Lev 12, and v 6 says it is for a sin offering. Hence, his assertation that Mary was a sinner.

Do you think she could have gotten into the temple without it? Imagine her walking up to the door with baby Jesus (who was probably born not quite nine months after she married Joseph) and saying, “I don’t need a sin offering, I’m the mother of God and have never commited a sin!” She’d have been stoned then and there (or, at the very least, thrown out).

 

[Psalm45_9]

What reason did Jesus need to be circumcised on the 7th day after his birth other than obedience to the law.

I see it is the same thing with the offering of two turtle doves, obedience.

 

[ICXCNIKA]

Papist:

I got hit up by a protestant friend, saying he had biblical proof that Mary was a sinner, one which I had not heard before. It goes something like this;

In Luke 2:24, it says that Mary and Joseph offered “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons”, in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord. This dictate comes from Lev 12, and v 6 says it is for a sin offering. Hence, his assertation that Mary was a sinner.

I have a couple of ideas as how to respond, but, being new to the group, wanted to run it up a flagpole and see if anyone else has some ideas.

Thanks;
Steve Chechet

Remind your friend that Jesus was baptized. Does that mean Jesus had sins to repent?

 

[dancus]

pkmksk:

Not to make light of the question, but tell your friend to stick with the brothers of Jesus scripture quotes. I am sure he has already brought those to your attention. They require a much more difficult answer. /QUOTE0 Wrong that is one of the easiest. Just thought I’d jump in for a little and jump out. Usually any thread that opens with “My Protestantent Friend” makes me more then a bit leery. Don’t sweat it I’m Catholc. It’s always a Protestant friend, doesn’t that make one wonder. Don’t these poor souls have Jewish friends, Hindu friends even Atheist friends. I do, perhaps it’s due to the fact I shave and shower each day. Yeah that must be the reason.
Dan

 

[Catilieth]

As to whether Catholics pray to Mary, we most definitly do. The word “pray” means to petition, or to say “please”. For example, "Up come Tom with his big boots on, said he to troll,“pray what is yon?” or “pray tell, kind sir, which is the way to London Town?”
To pray is not to worship or adore.
We worship God alone, we pray to whoever we think will listen to us in heaven (and on earth…don’t we ask others to pray for us?)

 

[Bishopite]

Mary being a poor person did what the Levitical law asked. Which is to sacrifice a dove if one couldn’t afford a lamb.

Jesus didn’t need to be “saved” nor baptized but was baptized even though He didn’t need to,(Mt 3:13-15) and yet Scripture says explicitly says that baptism saves us: John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:20, Acts 2:38. He did it out of obedience to the Father and for our example.

christi simus non nostri

bishopite

 

[Lazerlike42]

The law said that all Jewish women had to do this after giving birth. Had she ignored it, she would have been sinning.

Did Christ Himself make the yearly sin offering? I sure hope so! If He didn’t, there goes our happy little “Jesus was sinless” thing.

He also got circumcised, even though He didn’t really need to because if He didn’t it would be a sin.

 

[jimmy]

Papist:

I got hit up by a protestant friend, saying he had biblical proof that Mary was a sinner, one which I had not heard before. It goes something like this;

In Luke 2:24, it says that Mary and Joseph offered “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons”, in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord. This dictate comes from Lev 12, and v 6 says it is for a sin offering. Hence, his assertation that Mary was a sinner.

I have a couple of ideas as how to respond, but, being new to the group, wanted to run it up a flagpole and see if anyone else has some ideas.

Thanks;
Steve Chechet

If I am not mistaken, Mary had just given birth to Christ. In otherwords, she had to give an offering because she had just given birth and had to be cleansed. Now, if your friend wants to say that giving birth is a sin, he can, I will not agree though.