Proof that Pope Francis isn't a liberal - why the secular media is wrong about him

[Abu]

freeRadical #18
Does the Holy Father believe in liberty? Then he’s a liberal, because that is the definition of the word liberal.

Such naiveté simply confounds the confusion.

WordWeb includes these definitions of “liberal” – Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness/Tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition

The use of such political expressions merely clouds any issue of understanding the legitimate expression of truth.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

If we arbitrarily choose our definitions, can we also define a ‘conservative’ to mean someone who recycles so that Rush Limbaugh, being a diehard conservative, is actually someone who is really dedicated to recycling?

Well, there is money in recycling. Especially if you can get a government contract.

 

[ishii]

From dictionary.com (your apparent source for definitions)-

1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
   Rather clear this one doesn’t work given his position and the structure of the Church [yeah, there is a good form of despotism]

I think you’re conflating the Church with that of government of nations and states. I don’t know of any statement that the Pope disagrees with pluralism and democracy in the government of nations, nor have I heard that the Pope supports despotic governments of nations.

2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.

Doesn’t work either given his and the Church’s support of the UN’s overall mission and the Church’s own position on unjust internal laws of various states.

So believing that the UN might be a useful international body to help solve disputes means that you also think it should rule other countries?

4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.

Nope. Just captivity, confinement, and physical restraint are all ok.

I think the implication is “unjust” captivity, confinement, or physical restraint.

Your post is silly.

Ishii

 

[D_Martin]

Well, the western media is taking excerpts from things he says and manipulate it to be in the world view. Especially the subject of world peace, gays, this or that. What the Christian community doesn’t seem to pay any attention to is the world view is not only promoted but is now being enforced. If its not what the church says then its what the media says the church says and that is what will be trusted. The generation that is walking into the slaughter trusts the media much more then the church.

Either way its going to be what the media says about it.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Definition of the word “Liberal”

“open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.” - Google dictionary

Pope Francis reaffirms that marriage is between one man and one woman

Pope Francis’ Evangelii Gaudium is strongly against the evils of abortion while promoting religious liberty

Pope warns against dangers of 'adolescent progressivism’

Pope Francis reaffirms that ordination is for men only

Pope: There won’t be women cardinals

Pope: Guard against deceit of the devil

Thank you livingwordunity!
I really like reading your posts here.

The liberal mainstream media (idolaters, mammon worshippers, hedonists, false prophets) has tried to turn Francis into what they wish him to be and made him into their ‘strawman’ sock puppet.
…Pope says abortion not so bad, Pope says gay marriage is OK, Pope says atheists are saved, Pope says…

There is a much bigger picture of spiritual warfare going on here as satan - the lord of lies - intensifies his attack on the world.

 

[livingwordunity]

Well, the western media is taking excerpts from things he says and manipulate it to be in the world view. Especially the subject of world peace, gays, this or that. What the Christian community doesn’t seem to pay any attention to is the world view is not only promoted but is now being enforced. If its not what the church says then its what the media says the church says and that is what will be trusted. The generation that is walking into the slaughter trusts the media much more then the church.

Either way its going to be what the media says about it.

That’s why I made this thread. Hopefully, it might make some kind of a difference in getting the truth out. The secular media wants everyone to believe that Pope Francis is Pro-Abortion, for so-called same-sex ‘marriage’ and every other thing the liberals have in their plan for social engineering. The Church says these things are intrinsic evils, and Pope Francis agrees saying he is a son of the Church. Others had posted quotes from Pope Francis here and there which show that he isn’t going along with the liberal agenda. When we actually read all of what Pope Francis has said he actually sounds conservative which shouldn’t be surprising since another word for conservative is orthodox. But I wanted to gather it together into one post to offer an antidote to the secular media spin.

Thank you livingwordunity!
I really like reading your posts here.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[kozlosap]

I consider myself pretty well read, and in the last 8 months I have failed to read one time that the Holy Father was pro abortion or advocates for gay marriage. What I have noticed is that the secular media is astounded that there is a Pope who is advocating for the least among us and those at the margins of society. God Bless Papa Francis for reminding all of us what Our Lord taught was the way we should treat our fellow man.

 

[freeRadical]

If we arbitrarily choose our definitions, can we also define a ‘conservative’ to mean someone who recycles so that Rush Limbaugh, being a diehard conservative, is actually someone who is really dedicated to recycling?

What do you mean by arbitrary? I’m not arbitrarily defining the word liberal, look it up, in fact I posted a link from dictionary.com. Liberal has always meant “of, or pertaining to, liberty”. If anyone is arbitrarily defining the word liberal it is the Democrats, who have taken over the word and twisted its original meaning. I didn’t define the word liberal, it has always had that meaning. Milton Friedman wrote about the exact same thing in his book, “Capitalism and Freedom”.

 

[freeRadical]

Such naiveté simply confounds the confusion.

WordWeb includes these definitions of “liberal” – Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness/Tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition

The use of such political expressions merely clouds any issue of understanding the legitimate expression of truth.

Are you calling me naive?

 

[freeRadical]

From dictionary.com (your apparent source for definitions)-

1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
   Rather clear this one doesn’t work given his position and the structure of the Church [yeah, there is a good form of despotism]
2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
   Doesn’t work either given his and the Church’s support of the UN’s overall mission and the Church’s own position on unjust internal laws of various states.
3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.
   Well this doesn’t work either.
4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.
   Nope. Just captivity, confinement, and physical restraint are all ok.
5. permission granted to a sailor, especially in the navy, to go ashore.
   Might work if you can somehow derail this discussion enough to include naval traditions and practices.

So yeah, unless this discussion is about sailors going on liberty the Holy Father isn’t a liberal.

That’s not what I posted. Here is what I posted:

lib·er·al
[lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2.
( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3.
of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4.
favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5.
**favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers. **

Emphasis mine. Sounds like the Holy Father to me.

BTW, you posted the definition for liberty, not liberal.

 

[Abu]

To define a Pope or his statements in political terms such as “liberal” is not only naïve, as the wide range of definitions confirms, but detracts from the purpose and function of the Papacy which is to teach, rule and sanctify.

For example, Bl John Paul II writes in Centesimus Annus: ‘If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’

Here the Pope is stating simply the reasonable conclusions reached by the Catholic Late Scholastics and those building on their realizations, not delineating a “conservative” or “liberal” stance with reference to work in society.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I think you’re conflating the Church with that of government of nations and states. I don’t know of any statement that the Pope disagrees with pluralism and democracy in the government of nations, nor have I heard that the Pope supports despotic governments of nations.

So believing that the UN might be a useful international body to help solve disputes means that you also think it should rule other countries?

I think the implication is “unjust” captivity, confinement, or physical restraint.

Your post is silly.

Ishii

Yes it is, but so is trying to replace the OP’s definition of “liberal” with your own in order to disagree with the OP’s statement.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

That’s not what I posted. Here is what I posted:

lib·er·al
[lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2.
( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3.
of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4.
favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5.
**favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers. **

Emphasis mine. Sounds like the Holy Father to me.

BTW, you posted the definition for liberty, not liberal.

Well I posted the definition of liberty because you’ve already defined what a liberal is- “Does the Holy Father believe in liberty? Then he’s a liberal, because that is the definition of the word liberal;” “Liberal has always meant “of, or pertaining to, liberty”.” Rather hard to figure out if he is a liberal if we don’t have a definition of what makes him a liberal or not, namely liberty.

Not my fault your own select definition of “liberal” and source (dictionary.com) can be used to invalidate your own argument.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

To define a Pope or his statements in political terms such as “liberal” is not only naïve, as the wide range of definitions confirms, but detracts from the purpose and function of the Papacy which is to teach, rule and sanctify.

For example, Bl John Paul II writes in Centesimus Annus: ‘If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’

Here the Pope is stating simply the reasonable conclusions reached by the Catholic Late Scholastics and those building on their realizations, not delineating a “conservative” or “liberal” stance with reference to work in society.

Actually, it can be very helpful to show that the Holy Father (and past Popes) have made both politically “liberal” and “conservative” statements and supported such causes. Doing such can help dispel the idea that the Holy Father is just another political leader. If the various “can I be a liberal/conservative and a good Catholic” threads on this site is any indication we (Catholics), let alone the vast majority of politicized non-Catholics, are still trying to figure this out.

It’s one thing to state that no, the Holy Father isn’t a “liberal”/“conservative” political leader, it’s another to be able to also show (via his “conservative”/“liberal” statements) that he isn’t.

 

[livingwordunity]

Yes it is, but so is trying to replace the OP’s definition of “liberal” with your own in order to disagree with the OP’s statement.

Yes. That’s what it seems that people have been doing. Either that, or I’m the one who is being accused of politicizing the Pope when the purpose of this thread is to combat the politicizing of our Pope that’s been going on in the secular media. It’s mind-boggling that some can accuse me of politicizing but not see a political agenda in the secular media.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Yes. That’s what it seems that people have been doing. Either that, or I’m the one who is being accused of politicizing the Pope when the purpose of this thread is to combat the politicizing of our Pope that’s been going on in the secular media. It’s mind-boggling that some can accuse me of politicizing but not see a political agenda in the secular media.

I thought your OP was rather clear in what your intent was (which wasn’t to give the Holy Father a political label or to politicize [different from pointing out that his comments are “liberal” or “conservative” in nature] him).

 

[livingwordunity]

I thought your OP was rather clear in what your intent was (which wasn’t to give the Holy Father a political label or to politicize [different from pointing out that his comments are “liberal” or “conservative” in nature] him).

Yes. And, comparing the Pope to a political definition and seeing how close he comes to it isn’t the same as politicizing him. A political definition is an objective starting point, like using a measuring stick. And the OP shows that, using that measuring stick, the Pope doesn’t come close to the political definition of liberal which today has become widely synonymous with being for abortion, so-called same-sex ‘marriage’, doctor assisted ‘suicide’, etc. The ones who try to deny that this definition of liberal is the most common one do so by attempting to make the exception into the rule.

 

[freeRadical]

Well I posted the definition of liberty because you’ve already defined what a liberal is- “Does the Holy Father believe in liberty? Then he’s a liberal, because that is the definition of the word liberal;” “Liberal has always meant “of, or pertaining to, liberty”.” Rather hard to figure out if he is a liberal if we don’t have a definition of what makes him a liberal or not, namely liberty.

Not my fault your own select definition of “liberal” and source (dictionary.com) can be used to invalidate your own argument.

Does the Holy Father believe in liberty and personal freedom or not?

 

[freeRadical]

Yes it is, but so is trying to replace the OP’s definition of “liberal” with your own in order to disagree with the OP’s statement.

I didn’t replace his definition with my own, it’s in the dictionary. He used a political definition, I used an older definition. But I didn’t make it up, it’s in the dictionary. Milton Friedman discusses this same thing in one of his books. The Left has taken the word liberal and defined it to mean something else. It doesn’t change the fact that someone who is liberal (adjective) believes in liberty and personal freedom.

 

[christofirst]

Yes. That’s what it seems that people have been doing. Either that, or I’m the one who is being accused of politicizing the Pope when the purpose of this thread is to combat the politicizing of our Pope that’s been going on in the secular media. It’s mind-boggling that some can accuse me of politicizing but not see a political agenda in the secular media.

It is good to provide a balanced portrayal of our Holy Father Francis, as you have sought to do in your OP. There will always be the tendency, however, of letting our personal ideology color the choices we make regarding which papal statements we choose to emphasize. The secular media does this, I do it, and you do it too when you list only those papal pronouncements with which you are most comfortable.

So in the interest of presenting a more complete understanding of Pope Francis, based on his own words, let us not forget, but rather add to the good statements which you provided, these words from his interview in America magazine:

**“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage, and the use of contraception methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the Church is clear, and I am a son of the Church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does He endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.”

“…I have never been a right-winger. It was my authoritarian way of making decisions that created problems.” **

The overriding theme of Pope Francis’ reign thus far has been his concern for the poor. Again and again, he tells us to care for the poor, the disenfranchised, the oppressed, and those less fortunate than us, in all stages of life. In this regard, his message reminds me and others of the message of Cardinal Joseph Bernadin, of blessed memory.