Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women

[LJN21]

Yeah, this thread has gone from silly to absurd with the rape comments.

Dress is a cultural thing, no there isn’t a hard Church stance because there can not be. There is no “Proper Dress for Women” that is appropriate for all times and cultures. Get over it. Use you prudence and proper judgement when dressing yourself. If you see someone that causes you scandal, say a pray and asking for Charity and Chasity and keep moving.

 

[57classic]

I have to wonder why so many on threads like these take it upon themselves to “judge”…yes I said "judge" what another person wears as long as that person is not coming to Mass in revealing clothes with their skin hanging out all over. *Would you rather they didn’t come to Mass at all? *What gives you the right to judge…is that why you go to Mass…to judge and notice how other are dressing? God says to love your neighbor…is that how you are doing that?

I am among the many who miss the days of wonder, reverence, awe and respect shown to our Lord by the manner in which people attended Mass both by their dress and by their attention. I have a really difficult time associating respect with many of the clothes I see at Mass…even tho the wearers are mostly fully covered. You see, love and respect go hand in hand, where there is no respect, love dies. Perhaps the lack of respect is the person for themselves not for the Lord but it looks the same.
I was driving by the church one day and witnessed pall bearers unloading a coffin. 2 of the pall bearers were teenagers who looked like they had just rolled out of bed and thrown on whatever they had scooped up off the floor. I called each of my children and told them if they or any of their children did not ALWAYS have at least one outfit appropriate for a funeral, I would buy them one.
This post, I know has gone beyond the thread subject of modesty but it is a matter of respect, self respect, and love of the Lord which should guide a person to pick out their wardrobe, not just what is worn to Mass. Being a delibrate distraction at Mass because nobody is gonna tell you what to do and what to wear is not loving one’s neighbor either.

 

[polkadots]

Jenna stripper from the Starlight Bar reads in the newspaper about Jack the serial rapist, and gets permission to go visit him alone in his cell, where she does a strip tease in front of him. Jack promptly rapes her.

Is it the judgment of some people here that Jenna bears no responsibility for what happened?

These are just examples that have foundational ways of thinking behind them – stop looking for loopholes and look at the foundation and spirit of it, the Catholic teaching. Looking for

QUOTE]

It is true that we are called to dress modestly, but I think much of the reaction is against people who are not taking responsibility for their sin as well.

Your example is over the top about the stripper, but I would say yes that was not a wise decision on her part, but Jack would still be guilty of rape if she did not consent to have sex with him.

I find this especially offensive, because child molesters say things like “the little girl was being seductive.” So what if a child is being sexual, it is an adult’s duty to protect that child no matter what. Likewise, while women should dress modestly and not be seductive, rape is always the rapist’s fault. It doesn’t matter if you are a prostitute and are in a room with a man and change your mind. That is still rape.

 

[Leonius]

That dictum may be true for you but I would suggest that you are an exception and to use your own argument…not relevant

I have attended Mass straight from work…grubby and sweaty, I have attended Mass in full leather motorcycle gear. The important consideration is for me to get to Mass…not what I look like. Those who know me dont presume to judge me on outward appearance and I’m sure God doesnt either.

Your suggestion is wrong I am not an exception at all and it is very relevant.

To use your example your clothes would reflect that you had been to work or that you like riding a motorcycle, how you look is a form of communication. Appearance is not something that is neutral.

While sometimes it is necessary to rush to Mass, I would hope you are not trying to suggest that this is some how the ideal way to prepare for the Sacrament.

 

[Leonius]

As I highlighed above. Your scripture only shows that God loves us even AFTER we sin and still provides for our needs. This is in no way “proving” that God want’s us to dress a certain way.
You’re taking it out of context.

No it does not ONLY show that at all. You said God did not even cloth them, , you were wrong on that count and now your trying to downplay the significance of what God did into an irrelevance and telling me I am taking it out of context, I am not, here is the context:

They were already clothed:

“…they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.”

God decided to clothe them better, clearly the clothes provided by God would have been superior to what they had made for themselves, and this is the only logical reason why God made them for them, yes it was an act of God’s love for them also, but it was not merely an empty gesture made just to show His love, God does nothing without a purpose.

There are other passages in the Bible also were God directly tells people how to dress(see Exodus 29:30, Exodus 39, Leviticus 19:19, Deuteronomy 22:11, Ezechiel 44:17-20), in fact Deutoronmy 22:5 should be enough proof on its own that God is interested in how we dress and does have an opinion on it.

Sorry but the suggestion that God is not concerned about how we dress is not backed up by anything either in scripture or our traditions, both show the opposite, God concerns Himself so much with us that He cares about absolutely everything we do or don’t do, including how we dress, and especially how we dress to visit Him in His house, do we dress in way that shows our respect for Him or do we take Him for granted and just turn up in any old thing, or even something morally offensive to Him.

The only reason I can see for denying God’s interest is to attempt to justify dressing however we wish without any restrictions other than those we chose for ourselves, an attempt to break free from God’s authority.

Also, when Jesus walked the earth, men and women alike dressed the same. It was their custom. Long “tunics” for both.

No they did not dress the same at all, the women’s clothing consisted of finer materials and had vivid colours and distinctive embroidery easily identifying them as women and distinguishing them from the men.

If you want to know the Jewish teachings on modesty you might find these enlightening:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2077190_dress-modestly-according-jewish-law.html

simpletoremember.com/vitals/Modesty.htm

 

[Black_Dog]

I find this especially offensive, because child molesters say things like “the little girl was being seductive.” So what if a child is being sexual, it is an adult’s duty to protect that child no matter what. Likewise, while women should dress modestly and not be seductive, rape is always the rapist’s fault. It doesn’t matter if you are a prostitute and are in a room with a man and change your mind. That is still rape.

That is it exactly!!! There are men on here denying all responsibility for their own perverted thoughts…it’s all down to the women!!!
I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism and threads like this just make me stop in my tracks and wonder what on earth I’m doing. I do not want to be part of a fundamentalist church which, from this thread,seems to be lacking in basic Christian virtues. Yes of course people should make an attempt to dress appropriately but if for whatever reason they dont/cant is it really that big a deal? And all this quoting of scripture out of context is just…
I’ve told my priest about my involvement on this forum and he has advised me to stay away. Maybe he has a point.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

I am among the many who miss the days of wonder, reverence, awe and respect shown to our Lord by the manner in which people attended Mass both by their dress and by their attention. I have a really difficult time associating respect with many of the clothes I see at Mass…even tho the wearers are mostly fully covered. You see, love and respect go hand in hand, where there is no respect, love dies. Perhaps the lack of respect is the person for themselves not for the Lord but it looks the same.
I was driving by the church one day and witnessed pall bearers unloading a coffin. 2 of the pall bearers were teenagers who looked like they had just rolled out of bed and thrown on whatever they had scooped up off the floor. I called each of my children and told them if they or any of their children did not ALWAYS have at least one outfit appropriate for a funeral, I would buy them one.
This post, I know has gone beyond the thread subject of modesty but it is a matter of respect, self respect, and love of the Lord which should guide a person to pick out their wardrobe, not just what is worn to Mass. Being a delibrate distraction at Mass because nobody is gonna tell you what to do and what to wear is not loving one’s neighbor either.

You seem to have missed the part where I said…as long as they are not wearing revealing clothes with their skin hanging out all over. How is a woman who wears nice dress pants to Mass a distraction? If it is a distraction to another person…then that would indeed be THEIR problem, doncha think? Don’t misunderstand, I know about those who go to Mass…(the NO comes to mind) wearing short skirts and low cut blouses and boys wearing t-shirts with the skull and crossbones. Now…how does that compare to a woman wearing nice fitting, clean dress pants? IMO…it doesn’t compare in any way at all.

There is a difference in being a “deliberate” distraction…and being a distraction because of the narrow mindset of some.

 

[polkadots]

That is it exactly!!! There are men on here denying all responsibility for their own perverted thoughts…it’s all down to the women!!!
I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism and threads like this just make me stop in my tracks and wonder what on earth I’m doing. I do not want to be part of a fundamentalist church which, from this thread,seems to be lacking in basic Christian virtues. Yes of course people should make an attempt to dress appropriately but if for whatever reason they dont/cant is it really that big a deal? And all this quoting of scripture out of context is just…
I’ve told my priest about my involvement on this forum and he has advised me to stay away. Maybe he has a point.

I would follow your priest’s advice. I’ve never met people like the one’s on this forum at my church. I think you are right in saying that they lack basic Christian virtues and I’m sorry you have had to encounter them during what should be an exciting time (conversion/confirmation). I should probably stay away from this forum too. Look to Jesus and remember that he is really present in the Eucharist that you bill be receiving in roughly 47 days! Congratulations! You might be interested in the divine mercy or sacred heart devotions and don’t pay attention to the fundamentalists. In the love of Jesus, -polkadots

 

[happymommy]

I would follow your priest’s advice. I’ve never met people like the one’s on this forum at my church. I think you are right in saying that they lack basic Christian virtues and I’m sorry you have had to encounter them during what should be an exciting time (conversion/confirmation). I should probably stay away from this forum too. Look to Jesus and remember that he is really present in the Eucharist that you bill be receiving in roughly 47 days! Congratulations! You might be interested in the divine mercy or sacred heart devotions and don’t pay attention to the fundamentalists. In the love of Jesus, -polkadots

There are a lot of good people on here and many who truly know and live the faith! But one should never base their life on what they read on a forum, that’s just silly
Well, thank you for being able to judge all of us on CAF and say that we lack basic Christian values, how very Christian of you and to be able to do this with only being on the forum a short amount of time and with just 16 posts.
.

 

[LilyM]

The whole ‘God clothed Adam and Eve with skins therefore He cares what we wear’ is an interesting take.

I’d presume part of the reason is that leaves are hardly very warm, nor available in all climates. God was preparing them for the harsh realities of the world outside Eden where the weather wouldn’t always be beautiful nor fig trees plentiful.

Making clothes, whether from skins or plant fibres, is much harder work than sticking a few leaves together. God again was preparing them for the harsh reality that they were going to have to ‘labour in the sweat of your brow’, as He said to Adam - for EVERYTHING, including the clothes on their backs.

A much deeper interpretation that I’ve read is that this is the first instance in scripture where the death of animals is mentioned. Clearly the skins came from dead animals, not live ones.

Before the fall only plants are referred to as food, and animal death isn’t mentioned at all. It would seem that it is only after the fall that man’s debased nature makes it necessary to kill other creatures either for food or clothing.

In none of these possible explanations does the finery or otherwise of what they wear seem to be important - we have no idea in the slightest how ‘decent’ or ‘modest’ the skins were vis-a-vis the fig leaves. It seems a large stretch indeed to read into it that the leaves were somehow immodest (they could’ve been very modest indeed for all we know) and the skins more so.

 

[polkadots]

There are a lot of good people on here and many who truly know and live the faith! But one should never base their life on what they read on a forum, that’s just silly
Well, thank you for being able to judge all of us on CAF and say that we lack basic Christian values, how very Christian of you and to be able to do this with only being on the forum a short amount of time and with just 16 posts.
.

I mispoke in saying forum, I meant to say thread. I don’t think everyone here is that way, but there are a lot of extremists here whether they know ot or not.

No, you are right no one should base their life on a forum, but if someone is converting as the other poster mentioned it would be a bit discouraging to find so many people like those on this thread.

It is Christian though to point out that others are not being Christian. Are we not called to admonish the sinner?

 

[happymommy]

I mispoke in saying forum I meant thread. I don’t think everyone here is that way, but there are a lot of extremists here you have to admit.

It is Christian though to point out that others are not being Christian. Are we not called to admonish the sinner?

Okay, yes there are some extremists here and there, but it’s not wise to take everything that is written on a forum to heart.

Yes, we are to admonish the sinner, but it must be done out of love to show them the error of their ways, but not as a blanket statement about the Christian values held by people on a thread or forum. Could be that this is a topic they feel very strongly about, sometimes our vision gets clouded when we discuss something that we hold dear and we come off stronger than we intend:shrug:

Okay, enough derailing this thread…back to the original topicopcorn:

 

[polkadots]

Okay, yes there are some extremists here and there, but it’s not wise to take everything that is written on a forum to heart.

Yes, we are to admonish the sinner, but it must be done out of love to show them the error of their ways, but not as a blanket statement about the Christian values held by people on a thread or forum. Could be that this is a topic they feel very strongly about, sometimes our vision gets clouded when we discuss something that we hold dear and we come off stronger than we intend:shrug:

Okay, enough derailing this thread…back to the original topicopcorn:

I agree that maybe they are just a bit too passionate about this topic. Peace.

 

[ac_claire]

I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism and threads like this just make me stop in my tracks and wonder what on earth I’m doing…

Slightly off-topic, but: Black Dog, if this thread is making you question your conversion to the Church then I sincerely think you need to reflect on a few things, such as what exactly Truth is and what your responsibilities are once you recognize the Truth. You might want to talk to your priest again about this and the other concerns you mentioned.

If your priest told you you should stay away from CAF for awhile, then you need to take his advice. This is just my opinion.

Also, to those who keep saying that we’re “judging” people…Nobody has judged anyone here. Only if you’re taking any of this personally will you believe that you’re being judged. I don’t know any of you (except for my fiance here) personally, and I can assure you all I reserve judgement on each and every one of you and in charity I try to assume the best.

 

[EasterJoy]

For me, I think the abomination issue has to do with transvestites. Men who wear women’s clothes to take on the appearance of women.

And although they aren’t as predominent, there are women who choose to dress like men. I’m talking about the women who want to look and act like men. Sometimes they even choose to shave their faces so thick beard hair will grow and they can be more “manly” looking.

Such people are messing with gender roles, oftentimes even abusing their bodies to the point of transgender procedures. To me, such actions of these ill people are abominations.

Just my two cents.

That’s the way I take it. There are pants, and then there is men’s clothing. Parkas may obscure what we are, too, but we should not try to look like we’re not women.

Some transvestites, though, may have a serious mental problem or trauma. It is wrong, but they may not be culpable. )And of course, theatre productions are a different story…)

That dictum may be true for you but I would suggest that you are an exception and to use your own argument…not relevant

I have attended Mass straight from work…grubby and sweaty, I have attended Mass in full leather motorcycle gear. The important consideration is for me to get to Mass…not what I look like. Those who know me dont presume to judge me on outward appearance and I’m sure God doesnt either.

The Mass is the wedding feast of the Lamb, yes?

If you showed up for your sister’s wedding like that, would she be offended? If even by prudent foresight you could not have avoided showing up in that kind of dress, of course she wouldn’t. She would be relieved that you had been able to get there. If you looked like that because you presumed on her gracious acceptance of whatever priority you gave her wedding and whatever effort you saw fit to put forth to behave appropriately for it, not so much. And don’t think she wouldn’t trouble herself to find out which it was! Motive and opportunity matter.

God does not need to rely on outward appearance. God can read your heart and know exactly why you showed up looking like that. (Do not forget the parable in the Gospel in which the king’s servants beat the bushes for people to come to the feast, but the man improperly dressed was still thrown out for his insolence.)

No one should judge you, unless you give them the full story and you are clearly in need of admonishment. Even that would only touch on your actions, not your soul. God will judge us all, though, be sure of that, and whether we troubled ourselves to show reverence does matter.

 

[Auntie_M]

That is it exactly!!! There are men on here denying all responsibility for their own perverted thoughts…it’s all down to the women!!!
I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism and threads like this just make me stop in my tracks and wonder what on earth I’m doing. I do not want to be part of a fundamentalist church which, from this thread,seems to be lacking in basic Christian virtues. Yes of course people should make an attempt to dress appropriately but if for whatever reason they dont/cant is it really that big a deal? And all this quoting of scripture out of context is just…
I’ve told my priest about my involvement on this forum and he has advised me to stay away. Maybe he has a point.

Pease don’t stay away from the one true church because of what you read on these posts. There is a great treasure in Catholism and as a convert (as I am myself), the treasure is even more precious. There are alot of people who for whatever reasons think they know what is right or wrong. Pray and God will teach you himself.

And, yes, I have to get away from these threads for a while too. Only to come back to the same ole same ole. One trying to convince another what is right or wrong.

Our Holy Father teaches us what is right and those who profess to believe otherwise is actually putting themself above the Pope.
The only one that is above the Pope sitting at the chair of Peter is Christ himself. No one should be professing anything contrary to what our Holy Father teaches. He, and he alone, is instructed to “lead my sheep”.

It is our Holy Father’s belief that all people are God’s children. Men are not above women nor women above men. We all have to account for our own sins.

Go to your local diocese and find a parish that is in communion with the Rome and go…

Stay the course, my friend, you’ll be glad you did.

 

[Auntie_M]

One other thought, Black Dog

The first time I went to a mass, it was the most wonderful thing I had ever experienced. The ONLY thing on my mind was worshipping and adoring God. I could not tell you what anyone else has on or IF they had anything on.

But, after getting to know more people in the parish, I found lawyers, doctors, bankers, etc. would treat everyone the same. They showed all love, from the poorest dress to the “least” dress.
That’s what true Catholism is all about.

Love, Pure Unconditional Love.

Peace be with you…

 

[Salonika]

ac claire:

Also, to those who keep saying that we’re “judging” people…Nobody has judged anyone here. Only if you’re taking any of this personally will you believe that you’re being judged. I don’t know any of you (except for my fiance here) personally, and I can assure you all I reserve judgement on each and every one of you and in charity I try to assume the best.)

This is a general comment on the above quote, not a comment on posters on this thread.

I think it is very difficult not to feel (adversely) judged when posters describe an action (eg women wearing pants/jeans/trousers) or a situation that applies to you (eg you are single) and tells you that this is either sinful or wrong.

It’s also difficult when posters assume that because you hold particular views (which they usually disagree with) that you hold others which they disagree with even more and clobber you for these even more.

 

[ConservativeOne]

For me, I think the abomination issue has to do with transvestites. Men who wear women’s clothes to take on the appearance of women.

And although they aren’t as predominent, there are women who choose to dress like men. I’m talking about the women who want to look and act like men. Sometimes they even choose to shave their faces so thick beard hair will grow and they can be more “manly” looking.

Such people are messing with gender roles, oftentimes even abusing their bodies to the point of transgender procedures. To me, such actions of these ill people are abominations.

Just my two cents.

I’ve been of the same opinion.
Not to mention - quite often in the past (not here but in daily life) - there’s been the consideration that Our Lord and the men of His time - wore full-length robes, which while priests wear cassocks, what if a man who’s not a priest wore a robe such as the mode of dress during Our Lord’s time?
Really boggles the mind, doesn’t it?

I do think, however, that we should be mindful of Our Lady’s words at Fatima: that certain fashions would be introduced that would offend God very much. (pants? miniskirts? bikinis?) Compare 1917 to later years - could be any or all of the above.

 

[ac_claire]

This is a general comment on the above quote, not a comment on posters on this thread.

I think it is very difficult not to feel (adversely) judged when posters describe an action (eg women wearing pants/jeans/trousers) or a situation that applies to you (eg you are single) and tells you that this is either sinful or wrong.

I understand what you’re saying, Salonika. I still think though that you shouldn’t take it personally. If I believe something is sinful, and whether or not that thing is sinful comes up in a conversation (like in a thread such as this)…then my choices are either to a.) voice my opinion and thus contribute to the conversation or b.) remain silent so I don’t “offend” anyone.

I’ve never understood the value of political correctness and this seems to be just another version of it. Now personally, about the topic at hand, I don’t believe that women wearing pants is sinful. And a nice pair of pants on a woman is of course going to be more modest than a tight micro-mini skirt and haltar top, stiletto heels, streetwalker make-up, etc., etc. However, I do believe that in general women should dress like women, not like men. Pants were designed to be clothes for men. Up until this year I wore pants almost exclusively. Then I met my fiance and since he appreciates femininity so much, I started wearing skirts to please him. In the process I started reading about modesty and slowly came around to the views I’ve expressed in this thread. Still, I own more pants than skirts. They’re more practical for my lifestyle and budget right now. But if I had my druthers I’d wear skirts most of the time, and hopefully in the future that’ll be the case.

But this is my opinion. If someone doesn’t agree, then they just don’t agree. If we’re all going to take everything personally and get offended, then I could reserve the right to be just as offended as everyone else by the people who disagree with me. See how foolish that would be?