Proper Order of Sacraments

[Phemie]

Communion before Baptism?

I assume you mean Communion before Confirmation, as you then described in the rest of your post.

Yes, obviously that was what I meant.

 

[rciadan]

For those Baptised as infants, Confession must always precede First Communion and/or Confirmation.

This is true only in the Latin Church.

 

[FrDavid96]

This is true only in the Latin Church.

Which is one reason why this discussion is not taking place in the Eastern Churches forum.

 

[UncleBill]

Which is one reason why this discussion is not taking place in the Eastern Churches forum.

The proper order for all apostolic Churches was Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist until Rome started playing around with things.

 

[FrDavid96]

The proper order for all apostolic Churches was Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist until Rome started playing around with things.

:yawn:

Here’s the link, in case you can’t find it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=119

 

[UncleBill]

:yawn:

Here’s the link, in case you can’t find it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=119

So are you saying that the proper traditional order of the sacraments of initiation was different in the West?

 

[UncleBill]

Which is one reason why this discussion is not taking place in the Eastern Churches forum.

The order of the sacraments of initiation in the Western Church is Bursitis-Confirmation-Eucharist, in most of the world…here in the US it had been messed up…thankfully a few of the RC bishops are moving things back to the proper order.

 

[FrDavid96]

So are you saying that the proper traditional order of the sacraments of initiation was different in the West?

What I am saying is that if you want to discuss the practice of the Eastern Churches, there’s a proper forum for that.

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=119

 

[JimG]

The sacraments of initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. In the East, I believe that they are still given in that order, and in infancy, at the time of Baptism.

I would like to see that order restored in the West, but then I’m no liturgical expert, and my opinion has not been sought!

 

[UncleBill]

What I am saying is that if you want to discuss the practice of the Eastern Churches, there’s a proper forum for that.

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=119

I have been discussing the practice of the Universal church, East, West, North and South…not exclusively the East.:banghead:

 

[UncleBill]

The sacraments of initiation are Baptism, n, and Eucharist. In the East, I believe that they are still given in that order, and in infancy, at the time of Baptism.

I would like to see that order restored in the West, but then I’m no liturgical expert, and my opinion has not been sought!

Well it should be!

 

[babochka]

The order of the sacraments of initiation in the Western Church is Bursitis-Confirmation-Eucharist, in most of the world…here in the US it had been messed up…thankfully a few of the RC bishops are moving things back to the proper order.

In the Western Church, I’m only aware of children being confirmed prior to 1st Communion in countries that were once part of the far reaches of the Spanish Empire (Philippines, Mexico, etc.) I am unfamiliar entirely with customs in Africa, and in Europe, Confirmations are generally done at about the same age in the U.S.

 

[babochka]

I have been discussing the practice of the Universal church, East, West, North and South…not exclusively the East.:banghead:

I agree that it important to discuss the varied practices of the Universal Church, both now and historically, in trying to understand this issue. Our Eastern traditions are equally valid and we shouldn’t be confined to the ghetto of the Eastern Catholicism forum. It is significant that the universal practice of the early church, East and West, was for the sacraments to be given in this order: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion.

If a person has reached the age of reason prior to receiving either the Sacrament of Confirmation or First Communion, of course this should be preceded by sacramental Confession. If he has not reached the age of reason, then it need not, as in the case of the Eastern Churches. Since the current discipline of the Western Church requires that children have reached the age of reason before receiving communion, then they should go to confession first. It makes no sense otherwise. If they have reached the age of reason, as is required, then they are also able to distinguish sin and have contrition for their sins.

 

[UncleBill]

In the Western Church, I’m only aware of children being confirmed prior to 1st Communion in countries that were once part of the far reaches of the Spanish Empire (Philippines, Mexico, etc.) I am unfamiliar entirely with customs in Africa, and in Europe, Confirmations are generally done at about the same age in the U.S.

All children in the Western Rite were confirmed before first communion up until the 1930s in some places including the US. Not just the Spanish Empire. Some places started the change in the 19 teens.

 

[babochka]

All children in the Western Rite were confirmed before first communion up until the 1930s in some places including the US. Not just the Spanish Empire. Some places started the change in the 19 teens.

Right. I’m talking about now. In response to this statement:

The order of the sacraments of initiation in the Western Church is Bursitis-Confirmation-Eucharist, in most of the world…here in the US it had been messed up…thankfully a few of the RC bishops are moving things back to the proper order.

I had the impression that you meant that it is currently the situation in most of the world that children are confirmed prior to First Communion, but I’m only aware of it in the places I mentioned, and I know that much of Europe follows the same pattern than is followed in the US - Baptism as in infant, First Communion at age 7 or 8, followed by Confirmation somewhere between 12 and 16.

 

[Phemie]

Right. I’m talking about now. In response to this statement:

I had the impression that you meant that it is currently the situation in most of the world that children are confirmed prior to First Communion, but I’m only aware of it in the places I mentioned, and I know that much of Europe follows the same pattern than is followed in the US - Baptism as in infant, First Communion at age 7 or 8, followed by Confirmation somewhere between 12 and 16.

The return to the original order has begun and it seems that a few dioceses are coming on board every year. Our diocese did this in 1998 when Catholic schools ceased to exist in our province and parishes took over religious education.

Unfortunately, 9 years later we were absorbed by a diocese which didn’t have Confirmation until grade 10 and the decision was made that Confirmation for everyone would be between grades 6 and 10. That pandered to those who still insist it’s a sacrament of maturity where kids decide whether they are Catholic or not. It also pandered to those who insisted that it was too difficult to teach three sacraments in one year – ignoring the fact that this sacramental prep was the only religious education the children received in our part of the diocese and parents were not doing their job as primary educators because they’d always handed that over to the school teachers.

 

[GangGreen]

In today’s world

Baptism
Reconciliation
Communion
Confirmation
Marriage/Holy Orders
The Anointing of the Sick (hopefully last)

 

[UncleBill]

In today’s world

Baptism
Reconciliation
Communion
Confirmation
Marriage/Holy Orders
The Anointing of the Sick (hopefully last)

Yes…but it’s wrong! :banghead:

 

[tafan]

No.

No such document exists.

As others have already explained, Baptism must come first. There’s no question about that.

After Baptism, the order of the rest of the sacraments can and will vary.

For those Baptised as infants, Confession must always precede First Communion and/or Confirmation.

Those who are baptised as adults usually are Confirmed and receive Communion immediately thereafter.

After that, we have to look at each sacrament individually and each person’s circumstances.

Confirmation must be done before Ordination and (generally) before marriage—but even here, lack of confirmation doesn’t invalidate an attempt at marriage.

Anointing of the Sick can be done anytime after the age of reason—and again, there are all kinds of different scenarios which might change the order.

Your original question was this:
Does anyone have a link to an authoritative statement by the Church as to the proper order of the Sacraments ie

Simply put, no such document or statement exists, and given the many variations, no such statement is even possible.

With all due respect Father, I believe a document does exist which states this fairly clearly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains the following:

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.88 For “by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.”

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation.

Now, if we accept that Baptism is first, and then are told that it is completed by the Holy Eucharist, it seems rather obvious that confirmation comes in the middle.

 

[UncleBill]

How do we tell if someone who calls himself Father on here really is a priest?

Some of the comments by “priests” are really hard to believe.