Proper protocol for obeying in the midst of liturgical abuse?

[japhy]

In the recent past, at a Mass with only a dozen or so faithful present, we were “invited” up to the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and “invited” to hold hands during the Pater noster (“as a sign of our solidarity in Jesus Christ”). Against my personal wishes, I assented. At least the first of these two acts is a “registered liturgical abuse”; the second is insofar as the priest has no right to require such a gesture or make such a request.

What is one to do when confronted with this? I followed the priest’s instructions because I did not wish to cause scandal or be publicly disobedient or cause a scene. I felt I owed the priest my allegiance, despite the fact that I know he was “out of line”.

What does canon law (or some other authoritative source) have to say on the matter of authority in these cases?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

In the recent past, at a Mass with only a dozen or so faithful present, we were “invited” up to the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and “invited” to hold hands during the Pater noster (“as a sign of our solidarity in Jesus Christ”). Against my personal wishes, I assented. At least the first of these two acts is a “registered liturgical abuse”; the second is insofar as the priest has no right to require such a gesture or make such a request.

What is one to do when confronted with this? I followed the priest’s instructions because I did not wish to cause scandal or be publicly disobedient or cause a scene. I felt I owed the priest my allegiance, despite the fact that I know he was “out of line”.

What does canon law (or some other authoritative source) have to say on the matter of authority in these cases?

We are expected to follow the liturgical Norms of the Church. We are not expected to do wrong when asked to do wrong, we are free to do what is right. We are also obligated to let the Bishop know that this is taking place in his diocese.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

What is one to do when confronted with this? I followed the priest’s instructions because I did not wish to cause scandal or be publicly disobedient or cause a scene. I felt I owed the priest my allegiance, despite the fact that I know he was “out of line”.

I would be inclined to do as you did – go along with it. But if it bothered me, I would speak with the priest after Mass to let him know that I was bothered by what happened and seek a solution such as his not doing that in the future.

 

[Joysong]

Japhy, you have such a beautiful obedient soul, and I appreciate your sensitivity. Can you ask yourself if God was offended by folks standing around the altar, rather than remain in the pew? Do you really think He was?

I have been to many home masses over the years with small numbers of people gathered around the table over which the priest celebrated the liturgy. Should we have sat on the chairs away from the table? Is God offended by our presence in one area or another, provided our heart is attentive and desirous of worshipping Him?

Yes, it is good to follow rubrics, and yes the regular community would be amiss if they all gathered in the sanctuary. But for this small group, it suggests to my mind that the priest was attempting to provide a closeness that is more like the Last Supper, rather than like the King and I. His motive may be pure, even though his action was not in accord with the rubrics. Maybe a better solution would be to ask all of you to gather in the first pews rather than scatter all over the church … and you know how Catholics love the last pew! Maybe as a celebrant this disquiets him a little?

As for holding hands, I agree that he should have been more discreet, but since it has not been specifically labeled an abuse, you were doing nothing wrong by following his suggestion. In fact, you probably brought a few souls out of purgatory for your sacrifice. I would speak with him, though, since it bothers you.

God’s peace,
Carole

 

[japhy]

Can you ask yourself if God was offended by folks standing around the altar, rather than remain in the pew? Do you really think He was?

I don’t know if our actions offended God (and offense of God is not really my concern here); what I do know is that the Church God established on earth, as the mystical Body of Christ, has, through its leadership, stated that the hierarchical positions and roles of the faithful (clergy and laity alike) are to be respected in the liturgy. Put more simply: “During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the ‘presbyterium,’ which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.”

Yes, it is good to follow rubrics, and yes the regular community would be amiss if they all gathered in the sanctuary.

Of course it is good to follow the rubrics. Why, though, would “the regular community be amiss if they all gathered in the sanctuary”? What would be the problem?

But for this small group, it suggests to my mind that the priest was attempting to provide a closeness that is more like the Last Supper, rather than like the King and I. Maybe a better solution would be to ask all of you to gather in the first pews rather than scatter all over the church

We already were seated in the front-most pews of the chapel; granted, the pews are arranged antiphonally (facing the center aisle rather than the altar) because of the history of the chapel, but we were still all seated in two groups (on either side of the aisle) together.

As for holding hands, I agree that he should have been more discreet, but since it has not been specifically labeled an abuse, you were doing nothing wrong by following his suggestion. In fact, you probably brought a few souls out of purgatory for your sacrifice. I would speak with him, though, since it bothers you.

As far as I’m concerned, hand-holding is not an abuse; however, the priest does not have the right to preface the Our Father with an invitation to hold hands. He’s making stuff up. But I do thank you for reminding me to join my suffering for the sake of the liturgy to the suffering of Christ, and offer it for the souls in purgatory; that will indeed help to keep my mind off of myself during those times and on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Thank you for that.

As for speaking with the priest, I will consider it. I have yet to see the results of speaking (well, letter-writing) with the previous priest at this chapel.

 

[Joysong]

I don’t know if our actions offended God (and offense of God is not really my concern here); what I do know is that the Church God established on earth, as the mystical Body of Christ, has, through its leadership, stated that the hierarchical positions and roles of the faithful (clergy and laity alike) are to be respected in the liturgy.

Hi Japhy,

Since my conversion around mid-1960’s, my whole being is so profoundly grateful that God called me, forgave me, and allows me to celebrate these holy mysteries. NOTHING is able to shake my inmost serenity and gratitude, and for that I am frequently labeled a modernist or liberal.

I keep in mind the truth of Jesus’s words, “She who has been forgiven much, LOVES much.” It is love that draws me, and I try not to enter into whether or not the priest is 100% correct in every dot or T. Honestly, I’m glad for this new day of life and the opportunity to go to Mass.
I should burn in hell! Instead, I am feasting on the Bread of Life! The words of the canon speak solemnly to me, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve You.” And that would be whether the mass is celebrated in a church, a home, a cemetery, the catacombs, or Auchwitz. Many in third world countries are not afforded this blessing, as I am.

Sure, I get tempted to be impatient sometimes, but in the long run, who’s the one under the gun, and to whom is much given and much required? … me? or the celebrant. I consider the scripture when Peter was overly concerned about the affairs of John, and Jesus rebuked him saying, What is that to thee? Follow me. Jn. 21:21

When pure gratitude is the essence of our worship, this does not become primary focus to concern oneself about what the priest does or doesn’t do. And I doubt God holds any one of us in the congretation responsible, other than to “lift up our hearts.”

End of soap box …

May God give you peace of heart.

 

[mdgspencer]

I understand how many people would be embarrased to do something different so that everyone can see it during the mass. Of course, how far might we go if we base what we do on what other people want us to do?
I don’t see though that holding hands during the Our Father is a liturgical abuse, though since it isn’t part of the mass no one has the right to tell us to do it.
One time for example at the beginning of mass the priest in the church I was visiting told everyone to stand throughout the eucharistic prayer, giving a long list of reasons why this is better. I was looked at strangely afterwards because I ignored his command. I consider myself very lucky to have the courage to do something different when I think it best, or otherwise I would be guilty of many sins. I think we should try to live without compromise with wrongdoing. Disobeying the Church because someone tells us to, even the priest, seem to me a matter of obeying man rather than God.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Japhy, you have such a beautiful obedient soul, and I appreciate your sensitivity. Can you ask yourself if God was offended by folks standing around the altar, rather than remain in the pew? Do you really think He was?

I have been to many home masses over the years with small numbers of people gathered around the table over which the priest celebrated the liturgy. Should we have sat on the chairs away from the table? Is God offended by our presence in one area or another, provided our heart is attentive and desirous of worshipping Him?

Yes, it is good to follow rubrics, and yes the regular community would be amiss if they all gathered in the sanctuary. But for this small group, it suggests to my mind that the priest was attempting to provide a closeness that is more like the Last Supper, rather than like the King and I. His motive may be pure, even though his action was not in accord with the rubrics. Maybe a better solution would be to ask all of you to gather in the first pews rather than scatter all over the church … and you know how Catholics love the last pew! Maybe as a celebrant this disquiets him a little?

As for holding hands, I agree that he should have been more discreet, but since it has not been specifically labeled an abuse, you were doing nothing wrong by following his suggestion. In fact, you probably brought a few souls out of purgatory for your sacrifice. I would speak with him, though, since it bothers you.

God’s peace,
Carole

Whatever the priests intention was, no matter how good it was, it was not his place to interject his own personal preferences into the Liturgy of the Church. Anymore than the priest interjecting his own authority, who celebrated the “home” masses which were prohibited from being celebrated many years ago.

 

[Walking_Home]

In the recent past, at a Mass with only a dozen or so faithful present, we were “invited” up to the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and “invited” to hold hands during the Pater noster (“as a sign of our solidarity in Jesus Christ”). Against my personal wishes, I assented. At least the first of these two acts is a “registered liturgical abuse”; the second is insofar as the priest has no right to require such a gesture or make such a request.

What is one to do when confronted with this? I followed the priest’s instructions because I did not wish to cause scandal or be publicly disobedient or cause a scene. I felt I owed the priest my allegiance, despite the fact that I know he was “out of line”.

What does canon law (or some other authoritative source) have to say on the matter of authority in these cases?

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What to do — obey when what the priest directs follows the mind of the Church — otherwise he will cause you to co-operate with him in his disobedience to the Church.

Obedience to a Priest.

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University.

zenit.org/article-13614?l=english

This fundamental obedience of the assembly to Christ and the Church is the basis for the other forms of mutual obedience within the assembly. In a way, the priest owes obedience to the faithful in that he has a solemn mission to lead them in prayer and worship according to the mind of the Church. And the faithful have a corresponding right and duty to pray and worship in communion with the universal Church.

This also leads to a proper understanding of the faithful’s obedience to their pastors. They should be docile in accepting his guidance in all that touches on the mind of the Church.
Thus, with respect to the liturgy, the priest is called to direct the faithful in the Church’s liturgical worship. The faithful, in turn, have an obligation to obey him insofar as his direction corresponds to Church’s mind as expressed in the liturgical books or in the dispositions of legitimate Church authority.

As said, the obedience of the faithful to the priest is in virtue of communion with the Church and consequently** they have no obligation to obey a priest who directs them to perform or omit acts contrary to Church norms, because in doing so he fails to fulfill his mission of leading in communion.**

 

[japhy]

… “home” masses which were prohibited from being celebrated many years ago.

What specific prohibitions are you referring to, Br. Rich?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

What specific prohibitions are you referring to, Br. Rich?

Private Masses or Masses celebrated in private homes to which the parish community is not invited.

 

[benedictgal]

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What to do — obey when what the priest directs follows the mind of the Church — otherwise he will cause you to co-operate with him in his disobedience to the Church.

Obedience to a Priest.

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University.

zenit.org/article-13614?l=english

This fundamental obedience of the assembly to Christ and the Church is the basis for the other forms of mutual obedience within the assembly. In a way, the priest owes obedience to the faithful in that he has a solemn mission to lead them in prayer and worship according to the mind of the Church. And the faithful have a corresponding right and duty to pray and worship in communion with the universal Church.

This also leads to a proper understanding of the faithful’s obedience to their pastors. They should be docile in accepting his guidance in all that touches on the mind of the Church.
Thus, with respect to the liturgy, the priest is called to direct the faithful in the Church’s liturgical worship. The faithful, in turn, have an obligation to obey him insofar as his direction corresponds to Church’s mind as expressed in the liturgical books or in the dispositions of legitimate Church authority.

As said, the obedience of the faithful to the priest is in virtue of communion with the Church and consequently** they have no obligation to obey a priest who directs them to perform or omit acts contrary to Church norms, because in doing so he fails to fulfill his mission of leading in communion.**

That is so true. Fr. McNamara hit the mark. That is why, in good conscience, I cannot obey what the priest wants me to do if it is contrary to the norms and rubrics established by the Church…

Japhy, look at the fourth commandment: Honor your father and your mother. We are taught to obey our parents. However, if dad wants me to go the store with him and help him get a five-finger discount on socks or something else, then I am under no obligation to obey him if he wants me to do something wrong. I am under no obligation to obey my parents if they want me to engage in an activity that breaks the commandments. If the priest knowingly disobeys the Church, then, let the sin fall on him. Worse yet, if he invites the faithful to join him, don’t be a party to it. You are not disobeying him; you are keeping faithful to the Church’s liturgical rubrics and norms.

 

[Joysong]

Could we have a document reference, Bro. Rich? I would like to know when specifically the prohibition was decided upon and which document states it.

Thanks

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Japhy,

You might consider the following protocol…

Lay Witness Protocol

 

[japhy]

Lay Witness Protocol

Yeah, I’ve got that printed out and bookmarked too.

Would be nice if that link were a sticky in this sub-forum.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yeah, I’ve got that printed out and bookmarked too.

Would be nice if that link were a sticky in this sub-forum.

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This is from RS–2004 on how to address abuses that happen.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[THurifer2]

Hi Japhy,

Since my conversion around mid-1960’s, .

OK now I understand your response.

St. Faustina would have not gone up on the altar. Along with the rest of us who are not from the Kumbaya crowd.

 

[benedictgal]

This little excerpt from Redemptionis Sacramentum might help put things into perspective, at least as far as what the priest should be doing at Mass, as opposed to what he may want to do:

[30.] The office “that belongs to Priests in particular in the celebration of the Eucharist” is a great one, "for it is their responsibility to preside at the Eucharist in persona Christi and to provide a witness to and a service of communion not only for the community directly taking part in the celebration, but also for the universal Church, which is always brought into play within the context of the Eucharist. It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-Conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation, there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many".70

[31.] In keeping with the solemn promises that they have made in the rite of Sacred Ordination and renewed each year in the Mass of the Chrism, let Priests celebrate “devoutly and faithfully the mysteries of Christ for the praise of God and the sanctification of the Christian people, according to the tradition of the Church, especially in the Eucharistic Sacrifice and in the Sacrament of Reconciliation”.71 ***They ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.72 For as Saint Ambrose said, “It is not in herself … but in us that the Church is injured. Let us take care so that our own failure may not cause injury to the Church”.***73 Let the Church of God not be injured, then, by Priests who have so solemnly dedicated themselves to the ministry. Indeed, under the Bishop’s authority let them faithfully seek to prevent others as well from committing this type of distortion.

[32.] “Let the Parish Priest strive so that the Most Holy Eucharist will be the center of the parish congregation of the faithful; let him work to ensure that Christ’s faithful are nourished through the devout celebration of the Sacraments, and in particular, that they frequently approach the Most Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Penance; let him strive, furthermore, to ensure that the faithful are encouraged to offer prayers in their families as well, and to participate consciously and actively in the Sacred Liturgy, which the Parish Priest, under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, is bound to regulate and supervise in his parish lest abuses occur”.74 Although it is appropriate that he should be assisted in the effective preparation of the liturgical celebrations by various members of Christ’s faithful, he nevertheless must not cede to them in any way those things that are proper to his own office.

[33.] Finally, all “Priests should go to the trouble of properly cultivating their liturgical knowledge and ability, so that through their liturgical ministry, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will be praised in an ever more excellent manner by the Christian communities entrusted to them”.75 Above all, let them be filled with that wonder and amazement that the Paschal Mystery, in being celebrated, instills in the hearts of the faithful.76

Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear on the responsibilities of the priest. He cannot, of his own accord, get creative and decide to do something outside what the Church requires. When he does that, he is basing himself on his own personal tastes and idiosyncracies and not what the Church demands for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

Private Masses or Masses celebrated in private homes to which the parish community is not invited.

Is this the same as someone having a mass at their home after a house blessing when between 50-100 people are there? It would usually be the local Filipino priest. I grew up where all of my Filipino relatives and family friends would have house blessings with a mass and then a huge party and literally tons and tons of people would be there to celebrate the blessing and the new home. (I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if most of the people at those parties were part of the parish where the priest was from.)

 

[Sarabande]

To Japhy’s original post, in the past when I wasn’t as confident, I may have done it even if I thought it was not right or something that didn’t seem right. Today, if I believe that it is not something that is part of the liturgy, I’d have no qualms about tactfully not doing something like standing around the altar. Recently, I attended mass with my husband’s family down south in Florida. The priest had everyone stand up and shake hands with each other when mass began. Neither my husband nor I do this in our parish and felt uncomfortable doing something we saw as not part of the liturgy. We weren’t mean or rude, we just sat down, waited politely and I believe looked a bit confused (as we were confused) until the convention and noise was over and the mass started again.