Proper Use of the Church

[mercygate]

I fail to see how a Christmas pageant could not be seen as an act of worship.

Would a Christmas pageant based in Scripture be essentiallly different from a popular devotion such as the Stations of the Cross?

 

[Pong]

Would a Christmas pageant based in Scripture be essentiallly different from a popular devotion such as the Stations of the Cross?

I don’t think so. I think it’s quite appropriate to have a pageant in the sanctuary.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t think so. I think it’s quite appropriate to have a pageant in the sanctuary.

I agree, provided that it is not just a cutesy-cutesy excuse to parade a bunch of toddlers around in sheep costumes.

The great morality plays of the Middle Ages were done in the sanctuary. This tradition has a long and respectable history. Again: it would seem to fall under the heading of popular devotion.

 

[mercygate]

Well I have done extensive work in liturgies with children and you will not find any reference…except to the opposite.

I’m a little confused by this response. Are you saying that Christmas pageants are specifically prohibited?

It would not be surprising to find no mention of this in Sacramentaries, books of rites, or the Missal since a pageant is none of those things. This would seem to fall under the heading of using the church for a performance. We all know this is allowed according to certain guidelines as long as the performance is of material that is edifying: Bach’s Christmas Oratorio, e.g. In fact, our diocese has an ongoing concert series, and all events are performed in the sanctuary.

Of course, in the cathedral, the Blessed Sacrament is in a chapel off the ambulatory behind the main altar.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Would a Christmas pageant based in Scripture be essentiallly different from a popular devotion such as the Stations of the Cross?

Stations are public liturgical devotions of the Church and they are found in the official prayer books of the Church. A childrens nativity play is not that I know of.

In addition I believe that officially the Nativity with the figurines is not supposed to be in the Church sanctuary. But is supposed to be in the gathering space or entry way. The play could take place in the gathering space without having to move anything around if it’s big enough. Ours would hold about 100 folding chairs.

 

[mercygate]

Stations are public liturgical devotions of the Church and they are found in the official prayer books of the Church. A childrens nativity play is not that I know of.

In addition I believe that officially the Nativity with the figurines is not supposed to be in the Church sanctuary. But is supposed to be in the gathering space or entry way. The play could take place in the gathering space without having to move anything around if it’s big enough. Ours would hold about 100 folding chairs.

Care to apply for the job of enforcer on that one? Every Catholic church I have ever attended had the creche set up in the nave. If you are using the word “sanctuary” to refer to the space reserved for the altar (formerly behind the ripped-out altar rail), then of course it should not be there.

Wouldn’t a nativity play come under the rubric of “performances”?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m a little confused by this response. Are you saying that Christmas pageants are specifically prohibited?

It would not be surprising to find no mention of this in Sacramentaries, books of rites, or the Missal since a pageant is none of those things. This would seem to fall under the heading of using the church for a performance. We all know this is allowed according to certain guidelines as long as the performance is of material that is edifying: Bach’s Christmas Oratorio, e.g. In fact, our diocese has an ongoing concert series, and all events are performed in the sanctuary.

Of course, in the cathedral, the Blessed Sacrament is in a chapel off the ambulatory behind the main altar.

I think most people would not have a problem if the Blessed Sacrament is safely removed from the tabernacle during.

 

[mercygate]

I think most people would not have a problem if the Blessed Sacrament is safely removed from the tabernacle during.

That his what we do when the teens “perform” the Stations of the Cross. This is a dramatig production with instruments, costumes, and theatrical lighting. Of course, as a performance It is horrible because these kids do not go to the High School of the Performing Arts and this activity competes with homework, part-time jobs, school activities and sports . . . . But they are very serious about it and it provides a forum for them to offer something to the rest of us and an opportunity for us old fogeys to show our support for them, all in the context of the Tridruum.

The question is how did the Christmas pageant become so young-child oriented? I suppose because Jesus came as an infant . . .

 

[Catherine1959]

I think most people would not have a problem if the Blessed Sacrament is safely removed from the tabernacle during.

Well, then by all means, make sure that Jesus is removed from any experience of children learning by the example of His birth.

 

[mercygate]

Well, then by all means, make sure that Jesus is removed from any experience of children learning by the example of His birth.

Such sarcasm does not address the real possibility that an event like this, while intended as an encouragement to devotion, can easily become a circus if not carefully managed (have you attended a First Communion Mass lately?).

 

[Catherine1959]

I am so lucky to attend a very alive Church.
We have recitals, plays, rehersals, meetings many wonderful things go on in our Church and I don’t think one person ever does anything not respectful to the host, nor would we even think to exclude the host from anything going on in the Church. Jesus is what it is all about people and if you start excluding the host from things you start excluding Him from your lives.

 

[mercygate]

I am so lucky to attend a very alive Church.
We have recitals, plays, rehersals, meetings many wonderful things go on in our Church and I don’t think one person ever does anything not respectful to the host, nor would we even think to exclude the host from anything going on in the Church. Jesus is what it is all about people and if you start excluding the host from things you start excluding Him from your lives.

You are fortunate. I encourage you to attend a First Communion Sunday in a parish where 7/8ths of the people attending (including the Catholics) have absolutely no sense at ALL of WHO the Blessed Sacrament is or why we should honor Him with respectful behavior. You would soon see why people want to be cautious.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Care to apply for the job of enforcer on that one? Every Catholic church I have ever attended had the creche set up in the nave. If you are using the word “sanctuary” to refer to the space reserved for the altar (formerly behind the ripped-out altar rail), then of course it should not be there.

Wouldn’t a nativity play come under the rubric of “performances”?

Would Benedict consider it as Sacred Music? I’d have to go back and find the Liturgy Q and A that talked about the Nativity figures. I would assume he was talking about near the altar in front of the altar vs off to the side outside of the Sanctuary.

 

[mercygate]

Would Benedict consider it as Sacred Music? I’d have to go back and find the Liturgy Q and A that talked about the Nativity figures. I would assume he was talking about near the altar in front of the altar vs off to the side outside of the Sanctuary.

Yeah. It doesn’t belong in the actual sanctuary.

I think it could be considered “sacred” because a proper pageant would be based entirely on Scripture (unlike the Stations of the Cross, which have earned an esteemed place in church buildings).

But you are looking for documentation. I am flying by my liturgical “golden gut.”

 

[drafdog]

Don’t look now, but during the Middle Ages the parish church was typically the largest building in most villages. As a result it was used for everything that required a large hall. Town meetings, plays (secular as well as “morality” plays), concerts, etc. were commonly held in the local church. Don’t worry about an evangelization program such as a Nativity Play being done in the church. Go and enjoy.

Matthew

 

[mercygate]

Don’t look now, but during the Middle Ages the parish church was typically the largest building in most villages. As a result it was used for everything that required a large hall. Town meetings, plays (secular as well as “morality” plays), concerts, etc. were commonly held in the local church. Don’t worry about an evangelization program such as a Nativity Play being done in the church. Go and enjoy.

Matthew

Don’t forget that the communion rail served to keep livestock (chickens, sheep) out of the sanctuary. The floors were used to store grain. Now, I would not call that the source and summit of liturgical excellence, but it was definitely part of the history.

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t understand? Why would Jesus be offended by a play about his birth being preformed by his believers in front of him?
I understand that respect should be shown but how would this be disrespectful?

The problem is that we have collectively lost a sense of the sacred. The church is not a theater nor is it an auditorium. It is God’s house. The church is supposed to be sacred space. It is where God meets man in an encounter that lifts the veil between heaven and earth. Inasmuch as the play depicts the story of the Nativity of Our Lord, there are more appropriate places to have this activity.

Recall about a month ago when the Church celebrated the Feast of the Dedication of the Basilica of St. John Lateran. Jesus fashioned a whip from chords and drove out the moneychangers and animal vendors from the Temple area, more specifically, the Court of the Gentiles. The Court of the Gentiles was the place specifically reserved for those Gentiles who were “at the gate”, so to speak, and wanted to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. However, the moneychangers and animal vendors had set up shop there and profaned the sacred area.

While the Nativity Play is harmless in and of itself, it is still an activity that is best left to be done elsewhere. It’s not moneychangers and animal vendors, but, it is an activity that is, nonetheless, not approrpriate for teh sanctuary.

Now, if the church is the only large enough space to accommodate this play, then, the Blessed Sacrament must be removed from the sanctuary. We have to respect Our Lord.

We need to reclaim our notion of sacred space.

 

[Phemie]

In addition I believe that officially the Nativity with the figurines is not supposed to be in the Church sanctuary. But is supposed to be in the gathering space or entry way.

It’s always in the sanctuary of the Church where I grew up. Usually set up in such a way as to cover one of the side altars.

In 2003 I went to a new parish for Midnight Mass- at that church the entire space behind the altar was taken up with the nativity scene. It was built up to resemble the side of a hill with houses, roads, trees, potted plants, etc. You totally lost the altar in that scene.

 

[JoanneMary]

I completely agree that we have lost a sense of the sacred. This is why I posted my concern. The Blessed Sacrament is present and I have witnessed the children running up and down the altar which greatly upsets me. There are other places in this church to have the Nativity pageant. I have discussed this again with our administrator and she is looking into removing the Blessed Sacrament during the presentation or moving the pageant to the cafeteria. It is wonderful that all the children are participating in this Christmas pageant, but it is more important for our children to be taught reverence for the Blessed Sacrament and the sacredness of God’s house.

 

[Catherine1959]

When you say that WE have lost the sense of the sacred please speak only for yourself.
I have not lost the sacred and I know many others who have not.

Just a suggestion, if some of you were not so worried about rules and regulations maybe the Holy Spirit would be able to find It’s way back into your hearts and you could again feel the good in people instead of always looking for the bad.