Proper views on hell

[hu324b]

When some of our Saints have described it in visions and lots of NDEs describe it - it’s palace of burning hell fire. Example second secret of Fatima. But you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Very true.

Consider the way the concept of Hell is used in the Bible:

• To warn us against occasions of sin (Mark 9)
• As a condemnation of those who believe in their own ability to attain salvation (the condemnation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23)
• To teach us not to fear and revere earthly powers above God (Luke 12)
• As a punishment for wilful unbelief and disobedience (2 Thessalonians 1)
• As a reality for those who, having seen what God can do, still reject him (Matthew 12, John 8)

It is never used to crush people such as the sinful woman (Luke 7), the woman taken in adultery (John 8), the man who confesses his unbelief and asks for help (Mark 9), the tax collector (Mark 2) or Zaccheus (Luke 19).

Imagine the following
“Zaccheus, come down from that tree and start studying St. Leonard’s sermon, otherwise I’ll chuck you in Hell!”

Aye, aye the Saint Leonard sermon. Could not sleep for DAYS after reading that.

 

[John_of_Woking]

When some of our Saints have described it in visions and lots of NDEs describe it - it’s palace of burning hell fire. Example second secret of Fatima. But you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to.

Yeah Hell in the vision of the Saints makes me cower in fear

 

[John_of_Woking]

I am going to say Hell is real and more scary than anyone could fathom. However I also trust that Jesus will penetrate hard hearts and many will he ultimately saved. I cannot believe otherwise

 

[steve_b]

The Church teaches that the final state for everyone will be embodied, although we don’t quite know what that means. It’s probably better put in negative terms: not disembodied. that is to say, we will not end up as “ghosts”–just spirits flitting around. That has to do with how God made us in the first place–God made us as body and soul together, not just souls.

There is no Church teaching that I know of saying that God does this punitively in order to inflict more suffering on the wicked. That was a common opinion for much of church history, but has never been officially taught that I know of. Like you, I find that view morally repugnant and horrifying.

Perhaps you should check out the work of Fr. Robert Barron. He holds the view (as I do) that we do not even know for certain that anyone will go to hell. While some folks here think that some of his views are “dubious,” he’s a Catholic priest in good standing whose orthodoxy has never been questioned by the Magisterium that I know of. In fact, the theologian most associated with this view, Hans Urs von Balthasar, was a huge theological influence on Pope Emeritus Benedict (that doesn’t mean that Pope Benedict agreed with this particular view of von Balthasar’s, of course–it’s just a positive association that should make people slow to say that this view is blatantly heretical).

You are worrying about stuff that is just pious opinion and not binding on Catholics. That’s my opinion as a longstanding “almost Catholic” who hopes to drop the “almost” soon. (I.e., my opinion in itself doesn’t carry much weight, so check out sources with weightier opinions, like Fr. Barron).

Whenever you come across an issue like this that makes you re-evaluate whether you want to be a Christian, it’s helpful to ask the question: of which of the following things am I most sure?

1. That this particular belief is wrong?
2. That this particular belief is necessary in order to be a Christian (or specifically a Catholic)?
3. That Christianity/Catholicism is true?

To abandon the Faith for this reason you would need to be more sure both that the belief is false and that the Faith requires you to believe it than you are that the Faith is true. (Of course, more often no one such issue causes people to abandon the Faith, or to embrace it–it’s generally a “cumulative case” on both sides.)

Edwin

I’ve heard that from Fr Barron as well. I take it as he’s expressing a pious thought. A good one to be sure, but in effect he’s thinking outloud.

The scriptures teach for example, Galatians 5:19-21 certain sins will keep one from going to heaven if one dies in them. That’s why the Church teaches 1035 .

Jesus taught more on hell than anyone. Jesus can’t warn hell is a real possibility for humans if it isn’t. That would be deceit.

If one for example says awe, that tough talking stuff from Paul is just Paul talking, they can’t do that without destroying all of scripture. Jesus said He would send the HS to teach the apostles all truth and remind them whatever Jesus taught them John 14:25-26 . And He further says, what the HS teaches comes from me. John 16:12-15 . iow the one who will judege all, is telling us in advance, how He will judge those sins. Therefore that tough talk from Paul, came from Jesus

So we as individuals, always have to be on watch for our own souls and in extension for the souls of others. None of us knows the moment death will come to us. Because we are always one heartbeat away from the next life, if one has mortal sin on their soul, they can’t take for granted at anytime, that there is always one more heartbeat in them. Or that they will have the presence of mind to be in the right mind to repent.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve heard that from Fr Barron as well. I take it as he’s expressing a pious thought. A good one to be sure, but in effect he’s thinking outloud.

The scriptures teach for example, Galatians 5:19-21 certain sins will keep one from going to heaven if one dies in them. That’s why the Church teaches 1035 .

Jesus taught more on hell than anyone. Jesus can’t warn hell is a real possibility for humans if it isn’t. That would be deceit.

If one for example says awe, that tough talking stuff from Paul is just Paul talking, they can’t do that without destroying all of scripture. Jesus said He would send the HS to teach the apostles all truth and remind them whatever Jesus taught them John 14:25-26 . And He further says, what the HS teaches comes from me. John 16:12-15 . iow the one who will judege all, is telling us in advance, how He will judge those sins. Therefore that tough talk from Paul, came from Jesus

So we as individuals, always have to be on watch for our own souls and in extension for the souls of others. None of us knows the moment death will come to us. Because we are always one heartbeat away from the next life, if one has mortal sin on their soul, they can’t take for granted at anytime, that there is always one more heartbeat in them. Or that they will have the presence of mind to be in the right mind to repent.

I don’t know what you mean by Fr. Barron “thinking out loud.” I’ve noticed this response to Fr. Barron’s remarks on Adam too–as if he’s just being careless instead of genuinely disagreeing with what a lot of folks take to be orthodoxy. I don’t find Fr. Barron careless at all.

And of course hell is a possibility. Fr. Barron doesn’t deny that. It’s a real possibility, but not an inevitability, for every living person. We know by revelation that some people are saved, and according to Catholic teaching we know that certain individuals are as well. We also pretty clearly don’t know that certain individuals are damned. I understand why some would conclude that we know by revelation that some people will be damned (just not who), but I am happy to see that thoughtful, generally orthodox folks like von Balthasar and Neuhaus and Fr. Barron disagree with that view.

Edwin

 

[RPRPsych]

Aye, aye the Saint Leonard sermon. Could not sleep for DAYS after reading that.

I’m generally a late sleeper, so it didn’t have quite that effect, but I did find it disturbing.

However, we need to take into account a few things when reading it:

1. The much quoted “1 in 30000 are saved” figure is a third-hand account, and hence shouldn’t be taken too authoritatively.
2. The style of that sermon was a popular kind in the “good old days”, as both James Joyce (A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man) and my mother will attest. It was meant to be a pastoral admonition, not a dogmatic teaching - and should be read as such. It was not a private revelation that St. Leonard personally received.
3. The thrust of that sermon is, ultimately, “no one who wants to be saved will be rejected by God.” It’s Christ’s message of the narrow door, turned up to eleven, and we don’t know about the congregation he was preaching to. Maybe there were more than a few hardened and recalcitrant members involved, and stern measures were called for.

Ultimately, hell is best viewed as “just” rather than “scary” - as I’ve pointed out earlier, whenever it’s mentioned in the New Testament, it’s always with the intent of correction or admonition, whether it’s Our Lord or St. Paul who’s doing the talking.

 

[RPRPsych]

I understand why some would conclude that we know by revelation that some people will be damned (just not who), but I am happy to see that thoughtful, generally orthodox folks like von Balthasar and Neuhaus and Fr. Barron disagree with that view.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I am going to say Hell is real and more scary than anyone could fathom. However I also trust that Jesus will penetrate hard hearts and many will he ultimately saved. I cannot believe otherwise

Remember the “O my Jesus” prayer: “O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.”

This is a relatively new prayer and it says a boatload, so to speak, but how many even want it to be much less believe it?

Four of the lines:

1. “forgive us our sins”, not “some of us” but “us”.
2. “save us from the fires of hell”, notice that it doesn’t say “keep us” but it says “save us” and it also doesn’t say “some of us”.
3. “lead all souls to Heaven”, does anyone else think/believe that it is quite a shame that so many say this prayer but either don’t even hear what they are saying or just plain don’t believe that it is possible for Jesus to somehow accomplish what these 5 words say?
4. “especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy”, one hears so many speaking of God’s Justice, not so many speaking of God’s Mercy.

I, for one, do not think of God’ Justice even remotely like some seem to think of God’s Justice.

As I have said before and I say again, many of those that believe in God are in for quite a shock when they meet God and find out that pretty much all that they knew about God was God’s Name.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I think you’re probably right about the teeth-gnashing. Certainly there is language in Scripture that uses imagery evocative of physical pain, but the gnashing of teeth is probably more about chagrin and shame and regret. The Daniel passage is a great one for that–this point of this language obviously is that the wicked thought they had made the wise choice and were on top of the world, but at the Judgment everything will be turned upside down.

One big problem with the way hell language (and for that matter sin language) has been used often in the history of the Church is that originally, in the Bible, such language is primarily used to signify a reversal of values and a calling to account of those who think they’re above accountability. But it’s often been used, understandably, to promote social order, which means that it bears hardest on those who are at the margins of the social order already.

For instance, my parish has been helping a guy who spent some time in prison on a DUI conviction. Now he’s divorced, thousands of dollars behind on child support, and furthermore suffering from a brain tumor. He has no drivers’ license. He subsists on odd jobs. A while ago he said to one of the members of the church, expressing gratitude for our help: “You guys are going to heaven, because you are such good people and have been so good to me. But I’m going to hell, obviously, because I’ve been such a sinner.”

Now you know who I think is most likely to go to hell? Whoever, by word or deed or unspoken manner, did anything to plant such a twisted, demonic notion in the head of this man created in God’s image and bought with Christ’s blood.

The threat of hell is supposed to wake up those who are asleep, to call to repentance those who think they don’t need repentance. Instead, too often, it is used to crush those who are already broken.

Edwin

God bless you and don’t forget Jesus went to hell and He did not go thru all that He went thru in vain.

God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation and God’s Plan will come to Fruition.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Remember the “O my Jesus” prayer: “O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.”

This is a relatively new prayer and it says a boatload, so to speak, but how many even want it to be much less believe it?

Four of the lines:

1. “forgive us our sins”, not “some of us” but “us”.
2. “save us from the fires of hell”, notice that it doesn’t say “keep us” but it says “save us” and it also doesn’t say “some of us”.
3. “lead all souls to Heaven”, does anyone else think/believe that it is quite a shame that so many say this prayer but either don’t even hear what they are saying or just plain don’t believe that it is possible for Jesus to somehow accomplish what these 5 words say?
4. “especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy”, one hears so many speaking of God’s Justice, not so many speaking of God’s Mercy.

I, for one, do not think of God’ Justice even remotely like some seem to think of God’s Justice.

As I have said before and I say again, many of those that believe in God are in for quite a shock when they meet God and find out that pretty much all that they knew about God was God’s Name.

Amen

 

[John_of_Woking]

I’m generally a late sleeper, so it didn’t have quite that effect, but I did find it disturbing.

However, we need to take into account a few things when reading it:

1. The much quoted “1 in 30000 are saved” figure is a third-hand account, and hence shouldn’t be taken too authoritatively.
2. The style of that sermon was a popular kind in the “good old days”, as both James Joyce (A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man) and my mother will attest. It was meant to be a pastoral admonition, not a dogmatic teaching - and should be read as such. It was not a private revelation that St. Leonard personally received.
3. The thrust of that sermon is, ultimately, “no one who wants to be saved will be rejected by God.” It’s Christ’s message of the narrow door, turned up to eleven, and we don’t know about the congregation he was preaching to. Maybe there were more than a few hardened and recalcitrant members involved, and stern measures were called for.

Ultimately, hell is best viewed as “just” rather than “scary” - as I’ve pointed out earlier, whenever it’s mentioned in the New Testament, it’s always with the intent of correction or admonition, whether it’s Our Lord or St. Paul who’s doing the talking.

Fair point. Context is everything

 

[Tom_Baum]

RPRPsych

You wrote, “Ultimately, hell is best viewed as “just” rather than “scary” - as I’ve pointed out earlier, whenever it’s mentioned in the New Testament, it’s always with the intent of correction or admonition, whether it’s Our Lord or St. Paul who’s doing the talking.”

I am not talking about what the New Testament may say on the subject of hell but what some who post on this site say about hell, their take on hell being forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, has absolutely nothing to do with “correction or admonition”.

And it also has absolutely nothing to do with Justice but everything to do with vileness, pettiness, vindictiveness and, I would say, a few other ness’s and I, for one, do not believe in such a god as that and I, for one, will not even give a capital letter to this god.

God became One of us and went to hell for ALL of us, pretty simple, pretty awesome, pretty much unbelieved.

If one were to wake up in hell, so to speak, one will come to the realization that they built it themself and put themself there.

Since God is Omniscient and knew that not all would repent this side of breath, God came up with a Plan before creation itself and God’s Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.

By the way, I would not call hell “scary” but horrible beyond words.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t know what you mean by Fr. Barron “thinking out loud.” I’ve noticed this response to Fr. Barron’s remarks on Adam too–as if he’s just being careless instead of genuinely disagreeing with what a lot of folks take to be orthodoxy. I don’t find Fr. Barron careless at all.

I said he was expressing a pious thought. And I said it was a good one. I never associated “thinking out loud” after that statement, as being careless on his part. Those are your words.

I see Fr Barron in that instance, expressing an opinion.
C:

And of course hell is a possibility. Fr. Barron doesn’t deny that.

And I never said he did deny it.

Here’s 2 statements. One is true. One is pure speculation grounded in speculation

1. 
   *]hell is a possibility
   *]no body goes there
   C:
   

   It’s a real possibility, but not an inevitability, for every living person.

   I never said it was inevitable for every living person. Those are your words
   C:
   

   We know by revelation that some people are saved, and according to Catholic teaching we know that certain individuals are as well. We also pretty clearly don’t know that certain individuals are damned.

   Did I say we “know” who specifically is damned? No. That’s why when I quoted Galatians 5:19-21 I said certain sins will keep one from going to heaven if one dies in them. It’s a qualified statement. It begins with if. Go back and look at it. That’s also why I quoted the CCC that validates what I said… 1035
   C:
   

   I understand why some would conclude that we know by revelation that some people will be damned (just not who), but I am happy to see that thoughtful, generally orthodox folks like von Balthasar and Neuhaus and Fr. Barron disagree with that view.

   Disagree with what view?
   
   If you’ll notice the views you criticize, were views you expressed. I didn’t express the views you criticize.
   
   When Jesus said Matthew 7:13 I think he ought to know.

 

[steve_b]

RPRPsych

You wrote, “Ultimately, hell is best viewed as “just” rather than “scary” - as I’ve pointed out earlier, whenever it’s mentioned in the New Testament, it’s always with the intent of correction or admonition, whether it’s Our Lord or St. Paul who’s doing the talking.”

I am not talking about what the New Testament may say on the subject of hell but what some who post on this site say about hell, their take on hell being forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, has absolutely nothing to do with “correction or admonition”.

And it also has absolutely nothing to do with Justice but everything to do with vileness, pettiness, vindictiveness and, I would say, a few other ness’s and I, for one, do not believe in such a god as that and I, for one, will not even give a capital letter to this god.

God became One of us and went to hell for ALL of us, pretty simple, pretty awesome, pretty much unbelieved.

If one were to wake up in hell, so to speak, one will come to the realization that they built it themself and put themself there.

Since God is Omniscient and knew that not all would repent this side of breath, God came up with a Plan before creation itself and God’s Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.

By the way, I would not call hell “scary” but horrible beyond words.

Re: when Jesus descended to hell 633

 

[Tom_Baum]

Re: when Jesus descended to hell 633

I do not believe, even for an instant, that I have been thru worse than Jesus.

How can anyone say, if they give any thought at all to the subject, that since Jesus took our sins upon Himself and that He paid the “ransom for all” that He did not go to hell but only went to the nice place of the dead?

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, do you honestly think/believe that Jesus thought that this was a good time to say this psalm or that this psalm was coming true as Jesus was saying these words that were written many years before?

As I have said before and I say again, many people get so caught up in the physicality of the cross that they either downplay or completely ignore the spiritual things happening, concerning God-Incarnate’s work on the cross.

 

[Contarini]

Did I say we “know” who specifically is damned? No.

Nor did I say you did.

Disagree with what view?

If you’ll notice the views you criticize, were views you expressed. I didn’t express the views you criticize.

The view that “we know for sure that there will be people in hell but we don’t know who they will be.” The authors I mentioned disagree with that–they do not think that we can be certain that there will be human beings in hell, although they believe that hell is a real possibility.

If I’m not mistaken, you hold to the view above. Certainly your following remark implies that:

When Jesus said Matthew 7:13 I think he ought to know.

So you do you believe that more will be damned than will be saved? If you don’t think the passage necessarily means that, then I don’t see how it says anything at all about whether anyone will finally be damned. (I suppose there is the view that Jesus was talking about the people in His immediate context–first-century Jews who heard His message and were smug in their chosenness.)

Edwin

 

[steve_b]

I do not believe, even for an instant, that I have been thru worse than Jesus.

How can anyone say, if they give any thought at all to the subject, that since Jesus took our sins upon Himself and that He paid the “ransom for all” that He did not go to hell but only went to the nice place of the dead?

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, do you honestly think/believe that Jesus thought that this was a good time to say this psalm or that this psalm was coming true as Jesus was saying these words that were written many years before?

As I have said before and I say again, many people get so caught up in the physicality of the cross that they either downplay or completely ignore the spiritual things happening, concerning God-Incarnate’s work on the cross.

I only gave the reference 633 just in case some people are confused about what it meant by Jesus descended to hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I only gave the reference 633 just in case some people are confused about what it meant by Jesus descended to hell.

“633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.”

I didn’t say that Jesus went to “hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation”, I have said before and I say again that Jesus went to everyone’s hell by taking everyone’s sin/sins upon Himself and by doing this “won” the “keys” and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

Just because Jesus went to the “abode of the dead” and did what He did, does not mean that that is the only thing that was happeing concerning God-Incarnate’s “work” on the cross.

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

There is no Church teaching that I know of saying that God does this punitively in order to inflict more suffering on the wicked. That was a common opinion for much of church history, but has never been officially taught that I know of. Like you, I find that view morally repugnant and horrifying.

…]

From the catechism of the Council of Trent, Part I, Articles VII and XI:

*Again, as the just and the wicked performed their good and evil actions in this life not without the cooperation of the body, it necessarily follows that these actions belong also to the body as to their instrument. It was, therefore, altogether suitable that the body should share with the soul the due rewards of eternal glory or punishment. But this can only be accomplished by means of a general resurrection and of a general judgment. *

*The wicked, too, shall rise with all their members, even with those lost through their own fault. The greater the number of members which they shall have, the greater will be their torments; and therefore this restoration of members will serve to increase not their happiness but their sorrow and misery; for merit or demerit is ascribed not to the members, but to the person to whose body they are united. To those, therefore, who shall have done penance, they shall be restored as sources of reward; and to those who shall have contemned it, as instruments of punishment. *