Prophecy of Christ?

[TxGodfollower]

Is this passage prophetic of Christ? It seems to be; he was disgraced and insulted for us.

“(7) Let those who wait in hope for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed because of me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced because of me. (8) For it is on your account I bear insult, that disgrace covers my face. (9) I have become an outcast to my kindred,a stranger to my mother’s children.” Psalm 69:7-9 New American Bible, Revised Edition.

 

[Todd977]

Yes. From the 1983 NAB commentary on Psalm 69:
Since several passages are quoted in the New Testament in reference to Christ, Catholic tradition has always considered this psalm as at least indirectly Messianic.
From the 2011 NABRE commentary on Psalm 69:
The Psalm, which depicts the suffering of the innocent just person vividly, is cited often by the New Testament especially in the passion accounts, e.g., Ps 69:5 in Jn 15:25; Ps 69:22 in Mk 15:23, 36 and parallels and in Jn 19:29.

 

[TxGodfollower]

Yes. From the 1983 NAB commentary on Psalm 69:
Since several passages are quoted in the New Testament in reference to Christ, Catholic tradition has always considered this psalm as at least indirectly Messianic.
From the 2011 NABRE commentary on Psalm 69:
The Psalm, which depicts the suffering of the innocent just person vividly, is cited often by the New Testament especially in the passion accounts, e.g., Ps 69:5 in Jn 15:25; Ps 69:22 in Mk 15:23, 36 and parallels and in Jn 19:29.

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

 

[Todd977]

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for he was but one when I called him, but I blessed him and made him many. (Isaiah 51:2)

It was not uncommon for the Jews to refer to Abraham as their father. And, as the above quote from Isaiah shows, they also considered Abraham’s wife Sarah to be their mother. So when the psalmist mentions becoming “an outcast to my kindred and a stranger to my mother’s children,” it may refer to being rejected by all the Jews in general rather than beinig rejected by just the psalmist’s immediate family. When applied to Jesus Christ, this more general understanding of the the words to mean being rejected by the Jews in general seems the best fit, since Jesus’ mother, the Virgin Mary, only had the one child.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing; For no one who wants to be widely known acts in secret. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” (For not even his brothers believed in him.) Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil.
John 7:4-7

 

[patrick457]

Is this passage prophetic of Christ? It seems to be; he was disgraced and insulted for us.

“(7) Let those who wait in hope for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed because of me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced because of me. (8) For it is on your account I bear insult, that disgrace covers my face. (9) I have become an outcast to my kindred,a stranger to my mother’s children.” Psalm 69:7-9 New American Bible, Revised Edition.

Yes, you can say that parts of the psalm can be applied to Jesus. I’d like to point out your attention to other verses within that psalm.

“For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.”

The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2:13-16)

“They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.”

And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. (…) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. (Matthew 27:33-34, 45-48)

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

Here’s the thing. There’s really no requirement that prophecies be fulfilled literally to the letter - that’s an understanding imposed by moderns. For the ancients, the prophecy can be considered ‘fulfilled’ even if it did not literally happen as written in the text, word-for-word - as long as the event evoked the passage in question (even if in a somewhat general, loose way), it’s all good. So IMHO just because the psalm refers to “the sons of my mother” does not automatically mean, “Hey! Jesus had biological brothers / Mary had other children.”

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

The mother in this passage is primarily Israel as in Revelation 12. Although the woman in both passages spiritually refers to Mary as well, who is the mother of all Christians.

And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12:17)

So nice try, you sneaky pete!

 

[dmar198]

Thank you; but this brings up an interesting point with verse 9: “stranger to my mother’s children.”

Parts of the Psalm do not apply to Jesus, at least not at face value. E.g. verse 5: “O God, thou knowest my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee.” So also, the verse you quoted about His mother’s other sons does not apply to Jesus, at least not at face value.

 

[Cathoholic]

TxGodfollower. I think I know where you are going with this.

Sometimes Psalm 69 is misused to try to harpoon the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary (but it doesn’t work).

This is not where YOU are going is it TxGodfollower?

I think that is what some people could possibly be leading up to with (is this the case TxGodfollower? You are not trying to “set-up” Catholic readers here are you?):

PSALM 69:8 8 I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mother’s sons.

Or

. . . . (9) I have become an outcast to my kindred,a stranger to my mother’s children." Psalm 69:7-9 New American Bible, Revised Edition… . . .

As soon as a Catholic says “Yes of course this is Messianic", then your conclusion could say:

Jesus’ “mother” had “sons” so this does away with the Blessed Virgin Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. After all, YOU Catholics agree it is Messianic!”

But just because Psalm 69 has Messianic dimensions, doesn’t mean there are not other layers of meaning too. And as you read on in Psalm 69 (I see you happened to omit those verses), it becomes pretty clear about the multiple aspects and layers to Psalm 69.

As QNDNNDQDCE said:

QUOTE:
So nice try, you sneaky pete!

And I think Patrick457 also preemptively anticipated those objections too (here).

If it is where you are going, that objection doesn’t work.

Again, the Psalm is multi-layered (dmar198 just alluded to that too) so the objection cannot be used for what I think you may be trying to use it for.

Reading on in the Psalm clearly shows the polyvalence of the Psalm. If you want, I can provide more information but I think the other people have it covered.

If this is not where you are going with this question (?), please clarify.

Do you REALLY NOT see the Messianic dimension of Psalm 69?
Are you REALLY in doubt about this?
Or is there something else?

I will await your response and proceed as indicated.

Thanks and God bless you TxGodfollower.

Cathoholic

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PS The mods may or may not be considering removing this thread (i.e. for a questioner baiting Catholics IF this turns out to be the case).

Hopefully this thread does not disappear though. Why?

This thread in and of itself is instructive for Catholic apologists to see how these “questions” posed to Catholics and how these “methods” of bait and switch are used to try to attack the Catholic faith (even if that is not what TxGodfollower intended–I’ll just have to wait and see TxGodfollower what YOU have to say about your motives here before I can say with certainty).

Perhaps instead of thread removal, a simple thread closure (if this turns out to be baiting Catholics) may be a better option—but that is their call.

But I am perfectly happy (dare I say prefer) to have the thread remain open too and have the debate.

Apparently there are several other Catholics here that are ready to have the debate as well.

This all of course is the moderators decision.

 

[patrick457]

Just a question. Has TxGodfollower done (as Cathoholic says) ‘bait and switch’ in other threads? If not, please don’t put words into his/her mouth. It’s one thing if the poster in question really does have an agenda or has shown signs of such, but preemptive/premature judgment is another. This is not a contest.

I mean, I know what it feels like to have people jump at you and say “I see your mind - you’re planning something nasty, aren’t you?” when they clearly don’t. I say innocent until proven guilty.

 

[michaelhager]

Just a question. Has TxGodfollower done (as Cathoholic says) ‘bait and switch’ in other threads? If not, please don’t put words into his/her mouth. It’s one thing if the poster in question really does have an agenda or has shown signs of such, but preemptive/premature judgment is another. This is not a contest.

I mean, I know what it feels like to have people jump at you and say “I see your mind - you’re planning something nasty, aren’t you?” when they clearly don’t. I say innocent until proven guilty.

I agree. Let us see where this goes and respond accordingly with love. TxGodfollower has a legitimate question. Let us answer him with the true teachings of the church, without judgement.

Peace, everyone.

 

[Cathoholic]

Good points michaelhager and Patrick 457. Admonition well received.

I will wait and see where the line of questioning on this thread goes.

TxGodfollower. Please clarify.

 

[TxGodfollower]

My apologies for the delay. Been a long few days.

Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for he was but one when I called him, but I blessed him and made him many. (Isaiah 51:2)

It was not uncommon for the Jews to refer to Abraham as their father. And, as the above quote from Isaiah shows, they also considered Abraham’s wife Sarah to be their mother. So when the psalmist mentions becoming “an outcast to my kindred and a stranger to my mother’s children,” it may refer to being rejected by all the Jews in general rather than beinig rejected by just the psalmist’s immediate family. When applied to Jesus Christ, this more general understanding of the the words to mean being rejected by the Jews in general seems the best fit, since Jesus’ mother, the Virgin Mary, only had the one child.

Todd, great point. Thank you for the insight and verse.

Here’s the thing. There’s really no requirement that prophecies be fulfilled literally to the letter - that’s an understanding imposed by moderns. For the ancients, the prophecy can be considered ‘fulfilled’ even if it did not literally happen as written in the text, word-for-word - as long as the event evoked the passage in question (even if in a somewhat general, loose way), it’s all good. So IMHO just because the psalm refers to “the sons of my mother” does not automatically mean, “Hey! Jesus had biological brothers / Mary had other children.”

Interesting point, Patrick. Could you provide me some other examples so I can study this further?

TxGodfollower. I think I know where you are going with this.

Sometimes Psalm 69 is misused to try to harpoon the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary (but it doesn’t work).

This is not where YOU are going is it TxGodfollower?

I think that is what some people could possibly be leading up to with (is this the case TxGodfollower? You are not trying to “set-up” Catholic readers here are you?):

PSALM 69:8 8 I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mother’s sons.

Or

As soon as a Catholic says “Yes of course this is Messianic", then your conclusion could say:

Jesus’ “mother” had “sons” so this does away with the Blessed Virgin Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. After all, YOU Catholics agree it is Messianic!”

But just because Psalm 69 has Messianic dimensions, doesn’t mean there are not other layers of meaning too. And as you read on in Psalm 69 (I see you happened to omit those verses), it becomes pretty clear about the multiple aspects and layers to Psalm 69.

And I think Patrick457 also preemptively anticipated those objections too (here).

If it is where you are going, that objection doesn’t work.

Reading on in the Psalm clearly shows the polyvalence of the Psalm. If you want, I can provide more information but I think the other people have it covered.

If this is not where you are going with this question (?), please clarify.

Do you REALLY NOT see the Messianic dimension of Psalm 69?
Are you REALLY in doubt about this?
Or is there something else?

I will await your response and proceed as indicated.

Thanks and God bless you TxGodfollower.

Cathoholic

---

PS The mods may or may not be considering removing this thread (i.e. for a questioner baiting Catholics IF this turns out to be the case).

Hopefully this thread does not disappear though. Why?

This thread in and of itself is instructive for Catholic apologists to see how these “questions” posed to Catholics and how these “methods” of bait and switch are used to try to attack the Catholic faith (even if that is not what TxGodfollower intended–I’ll just have to wait and see TxGodfollower what YOU have to say about your motives here before I can say with certainty).

Perhaps instead of thread removal, a simple thread closure (if this turns out to be baiting Catholics) may be a better option—but that is their call.

But I am perfectly happy (dare I say prefer) to have the thread remain open too and have the debate.

Apparently there are several other Catholics here that are ready to have the debate as well.

This all of course is the moderators decision.

What kind of Christian would try to trip up a fellow believer, whether he be Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant? I was merely asking for some Catholic opinion on this passage. Perhaps I could have phrased my question better; but I am not out on some sort of Catholic saving hunt; I believe Catholics are saved so I don’t see a point in wasting time in that kind of effort.

Just a question. Has TxGodfollower done (as Cathoholic says) ‘bait and switch’ in other threads? If not, please don’t put words into his/her mouth. It’s one thing if the poster in question really does have an agenda or has shown signs of such, but preemptive/premature judgment is another. This is not a contest.

I mean, I know what it feels like to have people jump at you and say “I see your mind - you’re planning something nasty, aren’t you?” when they clearly don’t. I say innocent until proven guilty.

I agree. Let us see where this goes and respond accordingly with love. TxGodfollower has a legitimate question. Let us answer him with the true teachings of the church, without judgement.

Peace, everyone.

Patrick and Michael,

Hard to say I have a pattern of bait and switch, since this is only my 3rd thread. I do appreciate your defense. God Bless.

 

[Cathoholic]

TxGodfollower. You said that you did not ask this question . . . .

“(7) Let those who wait in hope for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed because of me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced because of me. (8) For it is on your account I bear insult, that disgrace covers my face. (9) I have become an outcast to my kindred,a stranger to my mother’s children.” Psalm 69:7-9 New American Bible, Revised Edition.

. . . . with any thoughts of calling into doubt the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Fair enough. I am gratified to hear that.

I’ll accept that (and I apologize for implying you had that in mind here).

---

At this point I will try to give you more insight on how a Catholic would view something like Psalm 69 (at least this Catholic).

Often Old Testament Messianic verses have different layers of meaning.

• In Psalm 69 there may be a personal aspect from King David (A “Davidic Dimension” if you will)
• There certainly is a personal prophetic aspect concerning Christ too (a Messianic or Christologic dimension).
• There is a larger corporate Old Covenant layer (the Old Testament Church).
• There is also a corporate prophetic layer concerning the Church (the Catholic Church–more on that shortly).
• There is also an eschatological meaning (concerning the end times) to fulfilling these passages.
• There is even often a layer of meaning for US personally.

For example of an aspect that could NOT concern Christ look at Psalm 69 verse 5 (which is just a few sentences before the verses you quoted.

PSALM 69:5a 5 O God, thou knowest my folly; the wrongs I have done . . . .

Does THIS concern Jesus? No!

But it DOES have to do with King David. It DOES have to do with ME and with YOU. It DOES have to do with the Old Testament Church too.

But if someone were to apply Psalm 69 whole and entire to Jesus, people would (wrongly) conclude Jesus has “folly” and has committed “wrongs”.

This doesn’t fit.

The best way to safeguard yourself in reading passages like this is to: “Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church””.

But consider Psalm 69:9, 19-21

PSALM 69:9,19-21 9 For zeal for thy house has consumed me, and the insults of those who insult thee have fallen on me. . . . 19 Thou knowest my reproach, and my shame and my dishonor; my foes are all known to thee. 20 Insults have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. 21 They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

This DOES concern Jesus, to be sure. The disciples see that too.

JOHN 2:15-17 15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16 And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; you shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."

But the Church doesn’t see these footsteps of our Lord as ONLY concerning Jesus.

WHY? Because the Church MUST FOLLOW in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus.

The Mystical Body of Christ—the Church must follow in the sacred footsteps of our Lord Jesus in a “final Passover”. A “final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection” and even now IS sharing in.

CCC 672b . . . According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by “distress” and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.

675a 675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. . . .

677a The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection . . .

I could mention other aspects of the Psalm such as verse 30 that states “I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify him with thanksgiving.” This suggests Jesus, but also the Church, and the Blessed Virgin Mary who is a living type (“typus”) of the Church (see CCC 967). The Blessed Virgin Mary who’s very soul “magnifies” the Lord (as Luke 1:46 tells us).

---

Now let’s go catechetically to those “different layers” of meanings so you can get into the proverbial mind of a Catholic (“I was . . . asking for some Catholic opinion on this passage”).

 

[Cathoholic]

Now let’s go catechetically to those “different layers” of meanings

Let’s look at some of those principles for those layered meanings from the CCC.

CCC 111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.”

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

CCC 112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.

CCC 113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").

CCC 114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith. By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

**The senses of Scripture **

CCC 115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

CCC 116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”

CCC 117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

TxGodfollower. Hopefully this is helpful to you on your quest of finding what “some Catholic opinion on this passage” is or any other Catholic teachings that interest you. I’ll hang around and see if there are any other things that arise here.

 

[ynotzap]

This aspect may have already been covered, so bear with me. Psalm 69 also makes a spiritual prophesy to those who follow Jesus Christ. They too will experience what Christ experienced, rejection, persecutions, disgrace by those that are not followers of Christ. Rejection will even enter into family relationships, Jesus made this very clear. Satan does use the unconverted world to hard-time Christians, and when we imitate Christ we can expect these things, Scripture has a spiritual prophetical dimension, and when we proclaim it we become prophets ourselves, we share in Christ’s priesthood