Prophesy

[Faith1960]

Did you read what I wrote about the prophecies of the second coming and jews themselves seeing both “suffering servant” prophecies and “conqueror” prophecies? When the Jew tells you that Jesus hasn’t fulfilled all the prophecies and thus can’t be the messiah, they’re usually looking at the conquering prophecies, which christ will fulfill at His return. It’s a little hypocritical for then to make this argument, since their own talmud and many jews see that there will be 2 different Messiahs at 2 different times. That means that, even in their own understanding of the scriptures, the prophecies aren’t all fulfilled at one time, but at least at 2 different times.

Jesus will be the conquering messiah at the second coming, when He destroys all evil.

Yes I read it.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

I have a list of about 400 prophecies Jesus did fulfill. What are the chances of “just someone” fulfilling about 400 messianic prophecies unless he was the Messiah? None, I’d say. I’ll see if I can find it.

Wow, great list, is it complete ?
Because if it is, that would be one
prophecy for every day of the year 365.
(Barring leap year that is)

 

[tweedlealice]

Perhaps there was a translation error, Faith, or perhaps the prophecy was not interpreted correctly. Prophetic writing is difficult to interpret, well, can be difficult to interpret.

I have a list of about 400 prophecies Jesus did fulfill. What are the chances of “just someone” fulfilling about 400 messianic prophecies unless he was the Messiah? None, I’d say. I’ll see if I can find it.

Hi,
It is internal vs external interpretation. The Jews expected the Messiah to bring peace to Jerusalem. They wanted a political Messiah. They didn’t understand that the " KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU" I think it is in Thessalonians. The peace they were looking for was external. The Jew is Israel. The Jew is Jerusalem. "MY PEACE I LEAVE YOU, MY PEACE, I GIVE YOU. " He walked amongst them and they saw Him, not. He was a rebel. He brought political unrest with the Roman occupation. How could He be the Messiah? He criticized the Sadducces and the Pharisees. He really was agitating the Jewish leaders and Rome. “I GIVE YOU THE PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING.”
May we choose to receive His peace and keep it.
The root of Jesse
The Davidic line
Born in Bethlehem
Isaiah 54
Born of a virgin
SYMBOLISM IN OT.
The Christophany in the Tabernacle in the Wilderness
Abraham sacrificing Isaac (The Father sacrificing Jesus)
Isaiah 54, again.
Definitely not a 400 list which would be interesting to see.
Memory, probably, has reduced my quotes.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Wow, great list, is it complete ?
Because if it is, that would be one
prophecy for every day of the year 365.
(Barring leap year that is)

Here’s one for leap year then:

Psalm 21 as a Messianic Hymn and David’s praise.

Actually, there are more that he fulfilled.

A Blessed Advent to you!

 

[Kaninchen]

Do you ever wonder why some of us find such prophecy lists unimpressive?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Do you ever wonder why some of us find such prophecy lists unimpressive?

No.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Lily, I love your quote at the bottom of your posts.

Thank you, Faith. Teresa of Avila is my favorite saint. I’ve been lucky enough to visit the cathedral in Avila several times. Love Spain! Wish I could go back right now.

 

[Kaninchen]

No.

I expect that approach helps in Professor of Theology biz.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

One of my favorite YouTubers regarding religion is a gentleman named ProfMTH. He made a series of 5 videos address some of the more popular messianic prophecies. What I’m posting now is an out-and-out cribbing of his first video which can be found here.

(Prophecy 180 on your list)
Matthew 2:23 “He shall be called a Nazarene” do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures. It’s said to link to Isaiah 11:1 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch *(netzer) will bear fruit.” There is no evidence that the etymology of the town of Nazareth comes from branch.

(Prophecy 351)
Matthew 27:3-10

3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

Despite the verse saying this was spoken by Jeremiah, there is no such reference there. Your list links it to Zechariah 11:10-13. It’s not Jeremiah as Matthew says, and what it says in Zechariah doesn’t say what Matthew says.

(Prophecy 116)
John 2:17 says "His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” It’s supposed to be a reference to Psalm 69:9. The problem is that Psalm 69 is not a messianic prophecy. It’s about a sinner who says “O Elohim, you know my foolishness and my sins are not hidden from you.” To link the two is to say Jesus is a fool and a sinner.

(Prophecy 315)
Matthew 2:14-15 says “Out of Egypt did I call my son” but the part that’s ripped from is Hosea 11:1, which says in full, “When Israel was a youth, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son” It’s about the nation and not about Jesus.

(Prophecy 164)
Matthew 1:18-23 is linked with Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21 says “You shall call him Jesus”. Then in Matthew 1:23 it says “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).” The problem is Isiah 7:14 says, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, the young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel” It was changed from she to they, and it had to be because he was named Jesus. As the author of the video notes the Septuigant matches with the Hebrew of Isaiah saying “she”

If I get the chance I’ll go through the rest of the videos which discuss more problematic claims of messianic prophecy.*

 

[frangiuliano115]

Do you ever wonder why some of us find such prophecy lists unimpressive?

Do you agree with my post no.2??

I also find them unimpressive because I believe in the resurrection.

Is there a different reason than what I stated why you would find them unimpressive?

I know Jewish persons who have become christian because of all the prophecies He did fulfill.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

One of my favorite YouTubers regarding religion is a gentleman named ProfMTH. He made a series of 5 videos address some of the more popular messianic prophecies. What I’m posting now is an out-and-out cribbing of his first video which can be found here.

(Prophecy 180 on your list)
Matthew 2:23 “He shall be called a Nazarene” do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures. It’s said to link to Isaiah 11:1 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch *(netzer) will bear fruit.” There is no evidence that the etymology of the town of Nazareth comes from branch.

(Prophecy 351)
Matthew 27:3-10

Despite the verse saying this was spoken by Jeremiah, there is no such reference there. Your list links it to Zechariah 11:10-13. It’s not Jeremiah as Matthew says, and what it says in Zechariah doesn’t say what Matthew says.

(Prophecy 116)
John 2:17 says "His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” It’s supposed to be a reference to Psalm 69:9. The problem is that Psalm 69 is not a messianic prophecy. It’s about a sinner who says “O Elohim, you know my foolishness and my sins are not hidden from you.” To link the two is to say Jesus is a fool and a sinner.

(Prophecy 315)
Matthew 2:14-15 says “Out of Egypt did I call my son” but the part that’s ripped from is Hosea 11:1, which says in full, “When Israel* was a youth, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son” It’s about the nation and not about Jesus.

(Prophecy 164)
Matthew 1:18-23 is linked with Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21 says “You shall call him Jesus”. Then in Matthew 1:23 it says “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).” The problem is Isiah 7:14 says, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, the young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel” It was changed from she to they, and it had to be because he was named Jesus. As the author of the video notes the Septuigant matches with the Hebrew of Isaiah saying “she”

If I get the chance I’ll go through the rest of the videos which discuss more problematic claims of messianic prophecy.

We do stretch some of the prophecies. Something I don’t like to do and only use the ones that are very clear and I try to keep them down to about 15 when doing lessons on this. There’s really no need for more!

Fran

 

[Kaninchen]

Do you agree with my post no.2??

No, I think they’re “Josh McDowellism” - trawling through the Tanakh (Old Testament) in search of pieces of text that might vaguely be said to apply to Jesus. At best they’re:

Isaiah XX:YY: A child shall stub its toe
Matthew WW:ZZ: And Jesus stubbed his toe.

That’s not to say that there are not ‘proof texts’ that might arguably be ‘messianic/prophecy’ in nature, it’s saying that I think that those long lists speak of a kind of evangelical Protestant desperation.

There are other reasons to reject them but that would be part of a different conversation, one about the nature of the New Testament itself.

I know Jewish persons who have become christian because of all the prophecies He did fulfill.

And I know people who were Christian and no longer believe a word of it, so what?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I expect that approach helps in Professor of Theology biz.

It could, but I rarely use it. I honestly don’t wonder why people aren’t impressed by the fulfillment of OT prophecy, but if you want to tell me, I’ll listen, or read, rather.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

No, I think they’re “Josh McDowellism” - trawling through the Tanakh (Old Testament) in search of pieces of text that might vaguely be said to apply to Jesus. At best they’re:

Isaiah XX:YY: A child shall stub its toe
Matthew WW:ZZ: And Jesus stubbed his toe.

That’s not to say that there are not ‘proof texts’ that might arguably be ‘messianic/prophecy’ in nature, it’s saying that I think that those long lists speak of a kind of evangelical Protestant desperation.

I apologize for my one-word answer in the earlier post, but I was on my way to bed very late, knowing I had to get up early this morning and attend a very early Mass. I didn’t treat you as charitably as I should have done even though I was tired, and I’m sorry for that.

I believe that did happen. I’m not a huge fan of history, but I had to study all of Church history, in depth for both of my degrees in theology. Immediately after Christ’s Resurrection I think the Church was wrapped up in that, the Resurrection, and I do believe in that. As time went on, however, I believe they became more and more interested in Jesus and who, exactly he was, what he’d been like, and questions arose about whether he was or was not the true Messiah.

I do believe the early Church members combed through the OT looking for prophecies of the Messiah and then attempted to apply them to Christ’s life. Some they got right, some they didn’t get right. For example, all of the professors at my school, including me, believe that Jesus was born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem and that no flight into Egypt occurred. Jesus was never known as anything but a Nazarene, there is not a whiff of Egyptian culture about him or his teachings. I think the writer(s) of Matthew and Luke performed some very great verbal acrobatics to get him to Bethlehem. Some, well, many, posters took a vehement stand against my belief on another thread, but that’s fine. Bethlehem is the only data we have, so I think non-theologians should go with that. I don’t want to get into another discussion of Jesus’ birthplace. In the end, it doesn’t matter. All that really matters is the Resurrection. If that happened, Christ is certainly the Messiah. If it did not, I refer you to the writings of St. Paul.

The OP, however, asked about the fulfillment of prophecies, so I gave her what I had.

I am a Roman Catholic Christian, and I do believe Christ introduced another kingdom that is “not of this world.” And I do think he fulfilled many prophecies, but they don’t impress me that much, either. My own lifelong personal relationship with him does.

Again, apologies for the one-word answer. I don’t use it in class much. I’m not headed off to bed at a very late hour in class. At least not yet.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

We do stretch some of the prophecies. Something I don’t like to do and only use the ones that are very clear and I try to keep them down to about 15 when doing lessons on this. There’s really no need for more!

Fran

The OP is very concerned about whether all of them were fulfilled. That’s the topic: Did Jesus fulfill all of the OT prophecies? There are some people, and I mean no one specifically, who will not believe in Christ’s divinity if he failed to fulfill even one prophecy. I agree with you that it doesn’t really matter if he did or not. I agree that the Resurrection is what matters. But the OP was asking about all of the prophecies.

Since I teach upper classes and seminarians, we don’t talk about the fulfillment of prophecy. We do, however, talk about the historicity of the Resurrection. It’s entirely up to you, but maybe it would help the OP if you told her why you believe in it so firmly.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

One of my favorite YouTubers regarding religion is a gentleman named ProfMTH. He made a series of 5 videos address some of the more popular messianic prophecies. What I’m posting now is an out-and-out cribbing of his first video which can be found here.

(Prophecy 180 on your list)
Matthew 2:23 “He shall be called a Nazarene” do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures. It’s said to link to Isaiah 11:1 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch *(netzer) will bear fruit.” There is no evidence that the etymology of the town of Nazareth comes from branch.

(Prophecy 351)
Matthew 27:3-10

Despite the verse saying this was spoken by Jeremiah, there is no such reference there. Your list links it to Zechariah 11:10-13. It’s not Jeremiah as Matthew says, and what it says in Zechariah doesn’t say what Matthew says.

(Prophecy 116)
John 2:17 says "His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” It’s supposed to be a reference to Psalm 69:9. The problem is that Psalm 69 is not a messianic prophecy. It’s about a sinner who says “O Elohim, you know my foolishness and my sins are not hidden from you.” To link the two is to say Jesus is a fool and a sinner.

(Prophecy 315)
Matthew 2:14-15 says “Out of Egypt did I call my son” but the part that’s ripped from is Hosea 11:1, which says in full, “When Israel* was a youth, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son” It’s about the nation and not about Jesus.

(Prophecy 164)
Matthew 1:18-23 is linked with Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21 says “You shall call him Jesus”. Then in Matthew 1:23 it says “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).” The problem is Isiah 7:14 says, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, the young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel” It was changed from she to they, and it had to be because he was named Jesus. As the author of the video notes the Septuigant matches with the Hebrew of Isaiah saying “she”

If I get the chance I’ll go through the rest of the videos which discuss more problematic claims of messianic prophecy.

I think your post is fascinating, especially since I read Hebrew. Had to learn it for my PhD, and I’m still a candidate by the way, haven’t finished my dissertation.

Do you read Hebrew? I think “Nazarene” does mean “branch.” I won’t go into this any more until I know if you’re interested or not. You may not be, and that’s fine. I should be working on my dissertation or grading papers.

 

[pianistclare]

Wow, great list, is it complete ?
Because if it is, that would be one
prophecy for every day of the year 365.
(Barring leap year that is)

How do you figure?
Leap years are divisible by 4.

 

[frangiuliano115]

The OP is very concerned about whether all of them were fulfilled. That’s the topic: Did Jesus fulfill all of the OT prophecies? There are some people, and I mean no one specifically, who will not believe in Christ’s divinity if he failed to fulfill even one prophecy. I agree with you that it doesn’t really matter if he did or not. I agree that the Resurrection is what matters. But the OP was asking about all of the prophecies.

Since I teach upper classes and seminarians, we don’t talk about the fulfillment of prophecy. We do, however, talk about the historicity of the Resurrection. It’s entirely up to you, but maybe it would help the OP if you told her why you believe in it so firmly.

Of course I believe in all you say in your other post just above.

And I understand what Kaninchen is speaking of. How did Jesus get to be born in Bethlehem? Was there a census? We’ve romanticized the Christmas story to a degree. Embellished, maybe. For instance, the magi didn’t come to honor Jesus the night He was born. It took maybe two years from then and they showed up at a house, not a cave.

But, God bless St. Francis, for trying to teach his religion to uneducated people, I do agree with you that it doesn’t matter at all. The ONLY thing that matters is the resurrection. I certainly hope the O.P. isn’t having a problem with this.

Here’s my reason for believing it: The Apostles!

Maybe the first thing I learned in theology class is that if you can’t trust the apostles, then what are we basing our faith on??

So Jesus was arrested and tried (unlawfully BTW) and sentenced all in one evening/morning. John stayed in Jerusalem the whole time and went to the foot of the cross with Him.

Peter, and the other 9 apostles were terrified. Could they be next? They all hid that evening, probably in the home of Martha and Mary in Bethay, where they probably had stayed during Holy Week (Passover) and returned to each evening. Anyway, yeah, they were hiding out.

Within a week, they were roaming the streets, with a new courage and conviction. Their fear had passed and all was well.

Why?

Something extraordinary must have happened. How extraordinary must it have been to cause such a change in them?

Maybe seeing a person whom they had seen dead come back to life?

And what life did they lead after that? One of comfort? No. They lived hard lives, read the biography of Paul. Whipped, stoned, imprisoned and went to a martyer’s death. Ditto for Peter and the others. And all this for what? To propagate some lie they wanted to spread about some faith they didn’t really believe in? I think not.

All they taught has to be true or they were a group of madmen who put together and studied the biggest conspiracy in history and died for it.

To say nothing of Jesus. Who thought He was God.

So that’s my reason for believing and not needing to know HOW MANY prophecies were fulfilled by Him. Although many were. Just read Isaiah 52, 53, 54. Who else could it be speaking of??

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

One of my favorite YouTubers regarding religion is a gentleman named ProfMTH. He made a series of 5 videos address some of the more popular messianic prophecies. What I’m posting now is an out-and-out cribbing of his first video which can be found here.

(Prophecy 180 on your list)
Matthew 2:23 “He shall be called a Nazarene” do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures. It’s said to link to Isaiah 11:1 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch *(netzer) will bear fruit.” There is no evidence that the etymology of the town of Nazareth comes from branch.

(Prophecy 351)
Matthew 27:3-10

Despite the verse saying this was spoken by Jeremiah, there is no such reference there. Your list links it to Zechariah 11:10-13. It’s not Jeremiah as Matthew says, and what it says in Zechariah doesn’t say what Matthew says.

(Prophecy 116)
John 2:17 says "His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” It’s supposed to be a reference to Psalm 69:9. The problem is that Psalm 69 is not a messianic prophecy. It’s about a sinner who says “O Elohim, you know my foolishness and my sins are not hidden from you.” To link the two is to say Jesus is a fool and a sinner.

(Prophecy 315)
Matthew 2:14-15 says “Out of Egypt did I call my son” but the part that’s ripped from is Hosea 11:1, which says in full, “When Israel* was a youth, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son” It’s about the nation and not about Jesus.

(Prophecy 164)
Matthew 1:18-23 is linked with Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21 says “You shall call him Jesus”. Then in Matthew 1:23 it says “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).” The problem is Isiah 7:14 says, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, the young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel” It was changed from she to they, and it had to be because he was named Jesus. As the author of the video notes the Septuigant matches with the Hebrew of Isaiah saying “she”

If I get the chance I’ll go through the rest of the videos which discuss more problematic claims of messianic prophecy.

Mike from NJ!

Silly me. I hadn’t noticed your religious affiliation - of which you don’t have one. Well, really you do but that’s another story.

I’m always in such a darn rush.

So, what are you going to do? Take each prophecy and prove to some crazy christians that they’re not true??

I wish I had the time to sit here and go thru your stuff up there.
Nazarene does mean branch.

Mathew was speaking to a JEWISH audience. They knew a heck of a lot more about what Mathew meant than what anybody today thinks they know what Mathew meant.

So a psalm was about Israel and not about Jesus. Study “prefiguring” and “analogy”. It would take you a long way along to understanding how christians think of the Old Testament. Oh. and study Jeremiah a bit more. The New Covenant is in there somewhere. Why would the New Covenant be in the Old Testament? So many questions.

And calling Him Jesus and Immanuel. Maybe Immanuel is just a title and that other stuff doesn’t matter all that much? Peter was given a name by Jesus that was a title too. You could look that up also.

Or you could just give it up since we don’t depend as much on prophecy as you would want to think. It might help some Jews to become Christian (and some have) but it won’t help Christians remain Christian because it’s almost irrelevant.

Fran

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Of course I believe in all you say in your other post just above.

And I understand what Kaninchen is speaking of. How did Jesus get to be born in Bethlehem? Was there a census? We’ve romanticized the Christmas story to a degree. Embellished, maybe. For instance, the magi didn’t come to honor Jesus the night He was born. It took maybe two years from then and they showed up at a house, not a cave.

But, God bless St. Francis, for trying to teach his religion to uneducated people, I do agree with you that it doesn’t matter at all. The ONLY thing that matters is the resurrection. I certainly hope the O.P. isn’t having a problem with this.

Here’s my reason for believing it: The Apostles!

Maybe the first thing I learned in theology class is that if you can’t trust the apostles, then what are we basing our faith on??

So Jesus was arrested and tried (unlawfully BTW) and sentenced all in one evening/morning. John stayed in Jerusalem the whole time and went to the foot of the cross with Him.

Peter, and the other 9 apostles were terrified. Could they be next? They all hid that evening, probably in the home of Martha and Mary in Bethay, where they probably had stayed during Holy Week (Passover) and returned to each evening. Anyway, yeah, they were hiding out.

Within a week, they were roaming the streets, with a new courage and conviction. Their fear had passed and all was well.

Why?

Something extraordinary must have happened. How extraordinary must it have been to cause such a change in them?

Maybe seeing a person whom they had seen dead come back to life?

And what life did they lead after that? One of comfort? No. They lived hard lives, read the biography of Paul. Whipped, stoned, imprisoned and went to a martyer’s death. Ditto for Peter and the others. And all this for what? To propagate some lie they wanted to spread about some faith they didn’t really believe in? I think not.

All they taught has to be true or they were a group of madmen who put together and studied the biggest conspiracy in history and died for it.

To say nothing of Jesus. Who thought He was God.

So that’s my reason for believing and not needing to know HOW MANY prophecies were fulfilled by Him. Although many were. Just read Isaiah 52, 53, 54. Who else could it be speaking of??

Fran

Thank you for sharing the basis of your belief. I agree with you almost line-for-line. The best proof of the Resurrection is the changed life of the apostles, and I also agree with you that the Resurrection is what matters.

A side note, which you probably already know: When a first century Jew spoke of or wrote of “resurrection,” he or she was talking of bodily resurrection, not a spiritual only afterlife, etc.

Since I agree with you so completely, you saved me a lot of typing! Thank you, and have a Blessed Advent! If you’re in Italy, send me a panettone! LOL Not really. I bought one from Italy, and it is wonderful! Moist and fresh. When I lived in Italy, I ate too much panettone,