Prophesy

[Faith1960]

I suppose Nativity scenes depict three wise men because three gifts were mentioned, as you pointed out. If five gifts had been mentioned, we might have five magi.

In our parish, they are moved a little closer to the infant Jesus every week until they “arrive.” The first time I saw that they had been moved, I moved them back, thinking someone had tampered with them! I can be stupid about some things.

Fran, Faith, all, have a good night and wonderful week. I’m going back to my neglected dissertation, I think.

You have a good week too!

 

[Faith1960]

I suppose Nativity scenes depict three wise men because three gifts were mentioned, as you pointed out. If five gifts had been mentioned, we might have five magi.
.

So its not the Bible that’s wrong about the Magi, it’s just our presumption there were three because there were three gifts?

 

[Faith1960]

Back to the topic of the OP. How many filled prophesies need there be? Some? All?

 

[wmw]

Jesus has a second chance (called a second coming) at fulfilling any He might not have been ready to complete the first time around.

I think for this thread to get on track there needs to be some identification of the prophesies that the OP or “some atheists” think have not been fulfilled that can’t be fulfilled in the end times.

I loved the list of 365; Has a company made a tear off calendar for them?

 

[Faith1960]

Jesus has a second chance (called a second coming) at fulfilling any He might not have been ready to complete the first time around.

I think for this thread to get on track there needs to be some identification of the prophesies that the OP or “some atheists” think have not been fulfilled that can’t be fulfilled in the end times.

I loved the list of 365; Has a company made a tear off calendar for them?

First of all, if you meant I’m an atheist, I’m not.

Secondly, I don’t know anything about prophesy, so I can’t ID the ones unfulfilled. I read that some prophesies hadnt been fulfilled which sparked this thread.

 

[frangiuliano115]

So its not the Bible that’s wrong about the Magi, it’s just our presumption there were three because there were three gifts?

I don’t know if Lily is coming back any time soon, so the answer to your above question is YES. There were definitely three wise men but there might have been more. But there were only 3 gifts mentioned in the bible. Each one has a meaning. Look it up on the internet.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

wmw says:

Jesus has a second chance (called a second coming) at fulfilling any He might not have been ready to complete the first time around.

This is important Faith1960. It had been mentioned before.

The “suffering servant” prophecies have been fulfilled.
The “king” prophecies will be fulfilled when Jesus returns - the second time around - when He sets up His heavenly Kingdom.

Eventually, they will ALL be fulfilled! We have to trust in God’s timing and not our own idea of how things should be.

Fran

 

[Kaninchen]

I read that some prophesies hadnt been fulfilled which sparked this thread.

To Jews, the key achievements of Messiah would be:

1. rebuild the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28);
2. get us Jews all back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6);
3. establish world peace (Isaiah 2:4); and
4. spread knowledge of the God of Israel throughout the world (Zechariah 14:9).

Messiah would also need to be descended from David, of course, but if I wake up tomorrow, in Israel, watching construction work on the Temple through the window, with the morning news talking about how peaceful the world is and with newspaper headlines along the lines of “Everyone Agrees Us Jews Were Right All Along!” I think asking for a full DNA analysis would seem somewhat superfluous.

From a Jewish perspective, you see, the achievements of Jesus were all ‘textual’ (the ‘evidence’ is all in the ‘text’) while the necessary achievements of Messiah are decidedly ‘real world’.

Christians, meanwhile, expect that the ‘Second Coming’ of Jesus will sort it all out.

 

[frangiuliano115]

To Jews, the key achievements of Messiah would be:

1. rebuild the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28);
2. get us Jews all back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6);
3. establish world peace (Isaiah 2:4); and
4. spread knowledge of the God of Israel throughout the world (Zechariah 14:9).

Messiah would also need to be descended from David, of course, but if I wake up tomorrow, in Israel, watching construction work on the Temple through the window, with the morning news talking about how peaceful the world is and with newspaper headlines along the lines of “Everyone Agrees Us Jews Were Right All Along!” I think asking for a full DNA analysis would seem somewhat superfluous.

From a Jewish perspective, you see, the achievements of Jesus were all ‘textual’ (the ‘evidence’ is all in the ‘text’) while the necessary achievements of Messiah are decidedly ‘real world’.

Christians, meanwhile, expect that the ‘Second Coming’ of Jesus will sort it all out.

Hi Kaninchen

Are we in the same time zone??

Anyway, I knew about the temple having to be rebuilt - I think I mentioned it.
Didn’t the Jews all get back together, and in a rather supernatural way, in 1947? And think of what ti’s taken to keep the nation together.
Jesus wanted a transformation of the person which would bring world peace, but I’m not very satisfied with that either. Guess we have to wait for the 2nd time around!
Number 4 is happening.

I believe the main reason for Jesus appearance on this earth was to make us know God better and in a clearer way than in the O.T. and also to be God’s perfect sacrifice. A man could not accomplish this because he’s sinful. Jesus was perfect, as the perfect lamb which had to be killed and eaten in Exodus 11, 12, and the blood put on the doorposts. He was the bread of life, like the bread that had to be placed on the altar of the tabernacle in the desert.

In the meantime, He also DID fulfill many prophecies. His apostles were Jewish - did they not know the O.T.?? Did they not know the shema, Deut 6:4-9? and 11:13-21? Who were they following? Someone making believe to be God?

Jeremiah 29:13
If you seek, you find. Sometimes we’re too resistant to finding. I’m not going to list any prophecies, I think you know them well. Some might be a stretch, but you can’t say they all are. Psalm 45:6-7 and 102:25-27 and then Hebrews 1:8-12. Could the writer of Hebrews, a VERY Jewish writer, have been so wrong?

Fran

 

[Kaninchen]

Hi Kaninchen

Are we in the same time zone??

You’re one hour ahead.

Didn’t the Jews all get back together, and in a rather supernatural way, in 1947?

We’re back to the whole ‘text’ v’s ‘real world’ question.

One of the problems we have here is that you consider the NT as reportage while I consider it as literature, a ‘construct’. When something in the NT seems to be presaged in the Tanakh, to you it’s evidence, to me it’s ‘the NT was written up that way’. That should not necessarily be taken to imply dishonesty on the part of the writers - they believed, they sought ‘evidence’ for what they believed.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You’re one hour ahead.

We’re back to the whole ‘text’ v’s ‘real world’ question.

One of the problems we have here is that you consider the NT as reportage while I consider it as literature, a ‘construct’. When something in the NT seems to be presaged in the Tanakh, to you it’s evidence, to me it’s ‘the NT was written up that way’. That should not necessarily be taken to imply dishonesty on the part of the writers - they believed, they sought ‘evidence’ for what they believed.

Yes. I know what you mean. There’s that problem of the census being taken - was there ever a census to get Joseph and Mary down to Bethlehem? So that Micah 5:2 could be fulfilled? I like the rest of chapter 5 too.

This is the same problem atheists have with the bible being taught as literature in universities. It can’t really be seen that way. It’s not a history book. Although there are historical facts in it, as in the O.T. I like to quote 1 Corinthians 2 for this. The bible has to be seen spiritually but you have yourself listed as Jewish so I’m going to assume you’re a spiritual person but do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

But you’re not correct in saying that if something in the N.T. is presaged in the Tanakh to me it’s evidence. I think I’ve said before that the evidence to me is the change in the Apostles the week after Jesus was crucified - or I could say the resurrection.

Does the fact that you don’t believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies you expected Him to fulfill, keep you from considering the resurrection? Do you think that was a lie? And for what possible reason?

Fran

 

[Kaninchen]

But you’re not correct in saying that if something in the N.T. is presaged in the Tanakh to me it’s evidence. I think I’ve said before that the evidence to me is the change in the Apostles the week after Jesus was crucified - or I could say the resurrection.

You’re still presuming that you’re talking to somebody who thinks of the NT as some kind of reportage/sacred text - the point is that I don’t.

Does the fact that you don’t believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies you expected Him to fulfill, keep you from considering the resurrection? Do you think that was a lie? And for what possible reason?

For you these are ‘theological’ questions, to me they’re ‘literary criticism’ questions, ie reading the NT is reading a work of literature, to you the ‘resurrection’ of Jesus has some kind of reality, to me, it’s something that happens to a hero in a work of fiction. I may speculate as to why the ‘author(s)’ wrote what they did but it would really be no more than that.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Jesus has a second chance (called a second coming) at fulfilling any He might not have been ready to complete the first time around.

I think for this thread to get on track there needs to be some identification of the prophesies that the OP or “some atheists” think have not been fulfilled that can’t be fulfilled in the end times.

I loved the list of 365; Has a company made a tear off calendar for them?

I’m glad you liked the prophecies. I felt kind of strange posting so many! I made those one day as a bored undergraduate and posted them on my blog. People kept copying them, but I don’t mind. They were there for the taking. They are here for the taking, too, so feel free to post them elsewhere or make a calendar of them, whatever.

I don’t know what prophecies atheists consider unfulfilled. I saw our Jewish contributor has told us why the Jews do not consider Jesus the Messiah.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

To Jews, the key achievements of Messiah would be:

1. rebuild the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28);
2. get us Jews all back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6);
3. establish world peace (Isaiah 2:4); and
4. spread knowledge of the God of Israel throughout the world (Zechariah 14:9).

Messiah would also need to be descended from David, of course, but if I wake up tomorrow, in Israel, watching construction work on the Temple through the window, with the morning news talking about how peaceful the world is and with newspaper headlines along the lines of “Everyone Agrees Us Jews Were Right All Along!” I think asking for a full DNA analysis would seem somewhat superfluous.

From a Jewish perspective, you see, the achievements of Jesus were all ‘textual’ (the ‘evidence’ is all in the ‘text’) while the necessary achievements of Messiah are decidedly ‘real world’.

Christians, meanwhile, expect that the ‘Second Coming’ of Jesus will sort it all out.

Thank you for giving us the Jewish perspective on why you do not consider Jesus the Messiah. Before I respond, I want to reread the passages you’ve indicated in Hebrew.

Thank you again for posting these. I agree almost completely with Fran, but I think the above were fulfilled in a way the Jews did not expect. To be sure, though, I need to consult the Hebrew, not an English translation. Much is lost in translation as I’m sure you know.

I have classes today, so I will come back when I finish with those.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hi Kaninchen

Are we in the same time zone??

Anyway, I knew about the temple having to be rebuilt - I think I mentioned it.
Didn’t the Jews all get back together, and in a rather supernatural way, in 1947? And think of what ti’s taken to keep the nation together.
Jesus wanted a transformation of the person which would bring world peace, but I’m not very satisfied with that either. Guess we have to wait for the 2nd time around!
Number 4 is happening.

I believe the main reason for Jesus appearance on this earth was to make us know God better and in a clearer way than in the O.T. and also to be God’s perfect sacrifice. A man could not accomplish this because he’s sinful. Jesus was perfect, as the perfect lamb which had to be killed and eaten in Exodus 11, 12, and the blood put on the doorposts. He was the bread of life, like the bread that had to be placed on the altar of the tabernacle in the desert.

In the meantime, He also DID fulfill many prophecies. His apostles were Jewish - did they not know the O.T.?? Did they not know the shema, Deut 6:4-9? and 11:13-21? Who were they following? Someone making believe to be God?

Jeremiah 29:13
If you seek, you find. Sometimes we’re too resistant to finding. I’m not going to list any prophecies, I think you know them well. Some might be a stretch, but you can’t say they all are. Psalm 45:6-7 and 102:25-27 and then Hebrews 1:8-12. Could the writer of Hebrews, a VERY Jewish writer, have been so wrong?

Fran

I think you make some excellent points, Fran, especially about the writer of Hebrews being very Jewish and the apostles being Jewish. They were certainly conversant with all the prophecies, as you’ve pointed out.

In Matthew 16:16, Peter confesses that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Peter was a Jew, and he certainly knew Jewish messianic prophecy, so more is going on there than we might read on the surface. I think there is a deeper meaning to some of these prophecies. Do you agree? Or can you clarify or add to that?

I’m not trying to convince our Jewish members of Christ’s divinity, and I would doubt you are, either, though I do not speak for you. I’m trying to put aside the fears of the OP, which I assume you are doing as well. I’m going to reread the passages indicated in Hebrew, but I have classes today, so will be absent part of the day.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You’re still presuming that you’re talking to somebody who thinks of the NT as some kind of reportage/sacred text - the point is that I don’t.

For you these are ‘theological’ questions, to me they’re ‘literary criticism’ questions, ie reading the NT is reading a work of literature, to you the ‘resurrection’ of Jesus has some kind of reality, to me, it’s something that happens to a hero in a work of fiction. I may speculate as to why the ‘author(s)’ wrote what they did but it would really be no more than that.

Okay. Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly.
Is the O.T. a work of literary fiction too?

 

[Kaninchen]

Okay. Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly.
Is the O.T. a work of literary fiction too?

You draw a line at the end of the NT which ‘fictionalizes’ the Qu’ran and Book of Mormon, for example, so you can hardly complain.

 

[Faith1960]

wmw says:

Jesus has a second chance (called a second coming) at fulfilling any He might not have been ready to complete the first time around.

This is important Faith1960. It had been mentioned before.

The “suffering servant” prophecies have been fulfilled.
The “king” prophecies will be fulfilled when Jesus returns - the second time around - when He sets up His heavenly Kingdom.

Eventually, they will ALL be fulfilled! We have to trust in God’s timing and not our own idea of how things should be.

Fran

Ok

 

[tweedlealice]

There’s still prophecies related to the second coming that haven’t occurred yet, obviously. Even jews recognize that there is a strange aspect to messianic prophecies, with some of these prophecies portraying the Messiah as a suffering servant and others portraying the Messiah as a conqueror. Many divide the prophecies up to say that there are actually 2 different Messiahs at 2 different times. One is called Messiah Ben Joseph and the other is called Messiah Ben David. This is written about in the Talmud.

Other jewish writings I’ve read state that not both prophecies could be fulfilled, yet there’s only one messiah. Which prophecies are fulfilled will depend upon how good the Jewish people are. So the victorious prophecies will only occur if the Jews are good, and the suffering prophecies will only occur if the Jews are bad.

They’re confused about them, whereas we know that it’s one messiah with two comings.

Salutations,
The suffering servant prophecy has already been fulfilled. Isaiah 54. The Jews feel Israel is the suffering servant and we have a translation error/Rabbi.
Jewish prophecies= a pure red Bull for sacrifice.
The Temple being rebuilt. I heard with the excavations that continue under the Temple mount has exposed the old Temple and they are using it. Now, how many people passed this on before I heard it?
I heard the Rabbis are being schooled in the old way of worship with the blood sacrifices. This is part of the prophecies.
The individual who helps bring peace to Israel is the prophet or priest of the anti-Christ. The sign of the beast is 666. This stood for Nero in their present time. But, the Bible is Living Water that flows through
Centuries and meets our spiritual needs.The 666 is assumed to be the symbol of bar codes.There are 2 prophets that get killed in front of the wailing wall and rise from the dead after 2 days. No one touched them. After their resurrection, they were praising God.The rapture occurs before the trumpet. There is a debate about which trumpet. Pretribulation trumpet, a midtribulation trumpet or post tribulation trumpet or there is one trumpet just for the rapture.
Our Catholic Church isn’t keen on an actual rapture because God is not the author of confusion. So, would we have airplanes falling out of the sky? Would car accidents and boat accidents happen all over with people being killed.?
The anti Christ is suppose to come out of Europe (Eastern Europe). I had studied this a lot awhile ago. So, some of it may be rusty.
The simple thing is the faith. There is a God. That He loved us so much that He came down to earth to share our sufferings. Then, after all this, Jesus fulfilled a heck of a lot of prophecies and walked THE Via Doloroso, all the way to Calvary. Now, in my youth, I felt no one suffered as Jesus. But the martyrs of the first church weren’t having a party with the Lions in the collosium. The Christians that were crucified and burned on the crosses outside of Rome to light the Apia Way wished they were somewhere else. Yet, our church and Jesus’ story was carried through built on the blood of the martyrs. As Pope Frances said," I aM weak and do not wish to suffer."
There is a simplicity and complexity to scripture. Don’t lose Jesus, your best friend and brother, in the deep Theology of the Bible.
He will come in glory. Only the Father knows when. We must be as the virgins with their lamps filled with oil waiting for the Bridegroom.
I am probably over 6000 words and will have to delete something.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[wmw]

First of all, if you meant I’m an atheist, I’m not.

Secondly, I don’t know anything about prophesy, so I can’t ID the ones unfulfilled. I read that some prophesies hadnt been fulfilled which sparked this thread.

No, rather I sort of thought of two possible but very separate choices of a source of these unfulfilled prophecies that, other than those that are for the end times, I’m not so sure they even exist.