Prophesy

[Mike_from_NJ]

Mike from NJ

It’s a relief to know we’re not going to go through each prophecy!

Although I agree with you to some degree, I do stand by my original post and I always feel that atheists are not willing to accept too much of what we believe. All those concepts I asked you to check out was for a reason. But you’d have to be really interested and the only reason you’d be really interested is if you were thinking of becoming christian and I doubt you are.

It’s not so much that atheists aren’t willing to accept what Christians believe, it’s that what is being presented is unimpressive (at least from what we see). Too often non-believers are told that only through a third-party explaining the true meaning of a passage will we understand it. The words say that but they really mean this. What value is a prophecy that is so muddy that no one agrees on what it means and whether it’s been fulfilled?

The Nazarene - branch thing is a play on words.

Is there any evidence of this, or is this an assumption based on another assumption that when the Bible says a prophecy was fulfilled that it was fulfilled? Is the word in Aramaic for someone from Nazareth the same as the word in Aramaic for branch? Are the words same in Hebrew?

Immanuel means “God With Us”. Jesus was God With Us. I’m sure you know this - you sound very knowledgeable. So, yes, it was a title.

Let’s look at the interlinear translation for Matthew 1:23. It says “they will call the name of him Immanuel”. The Greek word used for name is “onoma”. If you click on that word in the link I gave it shows each instance of “onoma” and it uses the word like we use the word name.

Jesus gave Peter the name Cephas in Aramaic because it means the rock, as Pietro is the masculine of pietra which means rock. It’s also a title.

The interlinear translation of John 1:42 where Peter is called Cephas shows the words used “will be called” as “klēthēsē”. It doesn’t use the word name/onoma. This might be a minor nit to pick, but barring other evidence it’s hard to simply assert that Immanuel was a title. That evidence would be showing where Jesus was called Immanuel. Do we know of a point where that name was uttered in reference to Jesus?

Even if you want to say that Immanuel is a title and not a name, the passage in the Old Testament makes it seem that it would be uttered by people, not just given to him never to be used.

You picked a couple of prophecies which you think were twisted in the wording to make them fit Jesus. Well, maybe some were. Are we sure He was born in Bethlehem, for instance?

BUT, are you willing to concede that some prophesies were fulfilled? There had been other supposed messiah’s that fulfilled one prophecy - I’m not even sure about two; maybe. But if you go beyond 4 or 5 the chances do become astronomical.

So, I mean, how many do you need?

Faith1960 asked that question as well, and I’ll be giving a detailed response there.

I had said that I personally will not use more than 15. Just Isaiah alone is incredible. 52, 53 and 54. But you’re saying the NT story was fixed to make it agree with the O.T.

Do you mean the Servant Songs where repeatedly it refers to Israel the nation, and not Jesus? I don’t find that so incredible.

I clipped out the part about the resurrection, but I agree – yes – if the resurrection were shown to be true that would be incredible.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Back to the topic of the OP. How many filled prophesies need there be? Some? All?

Even before we determine whether a prophecy has been fulfilled we must understand that not all prophecies are of equal worth. We need to take into account the likelihood of the prophecy getting fulfilled. If I state that there will be a time of war between two nations and then a very wise man will come who will bring about peace between them, then that’s almost a certainty. There have always been wars and there have always been those who have brought about peace (for a time). If I state that there is a man who will bring about 50 years of peace throughout the world, then the odds decrease significantly.

Next we have to analyze the accuracy of the prophet’s other prophecies. There was a man called The Amazing Criswell. For bad movie fans he was the one introducing the story in “Plan 9 From Outer Space”. Outside of his film work he had a weekly column of predictions and appeared on several talk shows.



His predictions were almost all terrible and off – except one. In March of 1963 on “The Jack Paar Program” Criswell said that President Kennedy would not be running for re-election because something will happen to him in November.

Even the Bible says we need to considering a prophet’s predictions in total. Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.” So all it takes is one unfilfilled prophecy to discredit a prophet.

The most important thing to consider is the verifiability of both the announcement of the prophecy and whether the propjecised event actually occurred. We all have that friend who when watching a movie claims they knew such-and-such was going to happen, but will only say so after it happens. In such cases we can’t verify that a prophecy was made prior to the event happening. A perfect example of this is psychic and horrible person Sylvia Browne. She was on a radio show the day after the Sago Mine explosion. There were reports while on the show that said all but one miner were found alive. On the show she said, “I knew they were going to be found.” Later in the program the reports were that all but one miner had died. She changed her tune by saying she knew they were dead.

The part about whether a prophecised event actually occurred is one that can plague some Biblical predictions. The New Testament was written decades after the events occurred with little to no corrobertaing evidence, and by people with a knowledge of the Old Testament scriptures. It makes verifying them very difficult (if not impossible in some cases).

===============

All that being said here are a few more prophecies that should be taken off of the earlier list for honesty’s sake:

(Prophecy 99 on the list)
Supposedly Psalm 38:11 “My loved ones and friends stay away, fearing my disease. Even my own family stands at a distance.” is a prophecy of what happens in Luke 23:49, “But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.”
There are two problems:

1. John 19:25-27 says that the women were beside the cross where they had a conversation.
2. Psalm 38 is about a man who is penitent and is an anxious and foolish sinner (which we are to assume Jesus is not).

And here are four of the prophecies on that list which deal with Revelation – a series of events that Christians agree have not occurred yet. Yet somehow these are on a list of fulfilled prophecies (despite that meaning the past):

1. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be as the “light of the morning”…Revelation 22:16
2. Isaiah 22:21-25…Peg in a sure place…Revelation 3:7
3. Isaiah 42:13-25…Messiah’s actions at His second coming…Revelation
4. Zechariah 2:10-13…The Lamb on the Throne…Revelation 5:13, 6:9, 21:24

 

[frangiuliano115]

Good Morning Mike from NJ

Actually, I agree with much that you’ve said. Which is why I wouldn’t make a list of prophecies fulfilled, although I do think a lot have been.

You speak of Isreal being the suffering servant. This is true. Like when it’s aid that I Will Take My Son Out Of Egypt. Okay. But some of these verses fit Jesus so well - many of them.

Immanuel. I know I won’t convince you, but it does mean God with Us. And christians believe Jesus is God with Us. Jesus is also an interesting name - God Saves. So God is with us AND He saves - since Jesus is the savior.

It’s too many things that come together in this way. If it were only one or two we’d have to let it go, but there are too many.

The only thing I want to say is that, yes, all depends on the resurrection. Our attention should be to that. If you’re interested, that’s what you should be studying more than the prophecies. Have you ever read Who Moved the Stone?" I think Morrison wrote it.

Plus, it’s difficult to come to christianity by searching for some kind of “scientific” evidence. That’s why it’s called faith, Mike from NJ. You have to start out by wondering what created everything we see around us. Do you really think it just formed itself out of nothing? Even a scientist will tell you something cannot be created out of nothing. So where did the universe come from? Whatever caused it (the first cause) we can call God. Then God revealed Himself. To Christians it was by using Jesus.

The bible cannot be read like a normal book. It has to be read with the spirit - that force in us that makes us wonder what this is all about. 1 Corinthians 2 explains it well,especially verses 12 to about 16 or so.

Fran

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Even before we determine whether a prophecy has been fulfilled we must understand that not all prophecies are of equal worth. We need to take into account the likelihood of the prophecy getting fulfilled. If I state that there will be a time of war between two nations and then a very wise man will come who will bring about peace between them, then that’s almost a certainty. There have always been wars and there have always been those who have brought about peace (for a time). If I state that there is a man who will bring about 50 years of peace throughout the world, then the odds decrease significantly.

Next we have to analyze the accuracy of the prophet’s other prophecies. There was a man called The Amazing Criswell. For bad movie fans he was the one introducing the story in “Plan 9 From Outer Space”. Outside of his film work he had a weekly column of predictions and appeared on several talk shows.

His predictions were almost all terrible and off – except one. In March of 1963 on “The Jack Paar Program” Criswell said that President Kennedy would not be running for re-election because something will happen to him in November.

Even the Bible says we need to considering a prophet’s predictions in total. Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.” So all it takes is one unfilfilled prophecy to discredit a prophet.

The most important thing to consider is the verifiability of both the announcement of the prophecy and whether the propjecised event actually occurred. We all have that friend who when watching a movie claims they knew such-and-such was going to happen, but will only say so after it happens. In such cases we can’t verify that a prophecy was made prior to the event happening. A perfect example of this is psychic and horrible person Sylvia Browne. She was on a radio show the day after the Sago Mine explosion. There were reports while on the show that said all but one miner were found alive. On the show she said, “I knew they were going to be found.” Later in the program the reports were that all but one miner had died. She changed her tune by saying she knew they were dead.

The part about whether a prophecised event actually occurred is one that can plague some Biblical predictions. The New Testament was written decades after the events occurred with little to no corrobertaing evidence, and by people with a knowledge of the Old Testament scriptures. It makes verifying them very difficult (if not impossible in some cases).

===============

All that being said here are a few more prophecies that should be taken off of the earlier list for honesty’s sake:

(Prophecy 99 on the list)
Supposedly Psalm 38:11 “My loved ones and friends stay away, fearing my disease. Even my own family stands at a distance.” is a prophecy of what happens in Luke 23:49, “But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.”
There are two problems:

1. John 19:25-27 says that the women were beside the cross where they had a conversation.
2. Psalm 38 is about a man who is penitent and is an anxious and foolish sinner (which we are to assume Jesus is not).

And here are four of the prophecies on that list which deal with Revelation – a series of events that Christians agree have not occurred yet. Yet somehow these are on a list of fulfilled prophecies (despite that meaning the past):

1. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be as the “light of the morning”…Revelation 22:16
2. Isaiah 22:21-25…Peg in a sure place…Revelation 3:7
3. Isaiah 42:13-25…Messiah’s actions at His second coming…Revelation
4. Zechariah 2:10-13…The Lamb on the Throne…Revelation 5:13, 6:9, 21:24

Hi Mike,

I consider myself a very devout Roman Catholic, a professor of RC theology, PhD candidate, and woman who was raised by Carmelites, and I agree with much of what you’ve written.

An aside, I, too, think Sylvia Browne is a horrible, horrible person! I can’t stand these people who prey on the sorrows of others. That Long Island Medium person is another horrible person. All they really care about is enriching themselves. That is not to say that some people don’t have the gift of prophecy. Some probably do, though it is not a gift that is bestowed much these days. Those who may have the gift, however, aren’t going to be charging for their “services” or appear on TV, etc., promoting themselves. I cringe whenever I encounter one of these “psychics,” which is very seldom since I try to keep away from such things. They always start with questions like “Why do I keep seeing baby clothes?” and of course someone in the audience has lost a baby either through miscarriage or very early, and sad, demise. Or “Why do I keep smelling roses?” Someone will have a connection with roses. A man will jump up and say, “Roses were my late wife’s favorite flower!” And the “psychic” is off and running and full of BS.