Prophet Mohammed

[jcaz]

Whew. It’s been a long week. As you guys saw, I had made several posts last weekend, and until now, I haven’t really had a chance to respond to many things. Some of those threads seem like ancient history, but insha Allaah, i will try to respond to the more important ones.

Ghosty had asked me to share my “story”, and insha Allaah, I will have the time to write this out shortly. But for now, as this topic is about Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam, I figured that I, from my previous perspective, would share with you my “crazy” thoughts on the prophethood of the prophets.

Please note, I am NOT writing this to present an argument. You can surely come refute everything I am about to say. I am simply sharing with you one of the many thought-processes that was going through my head regarding the status of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

After I had essentially left Catholicism and chosen to follow only the words and teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him, I felt myself conforming, in belief, to that of Islaam. The question of “who is Muhammad” kept coming up, and frankly, I did my darndist to ignore it, as it was my only goal to follow the true teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him. However, as my beliefs became more in line with Islaam, I was ultimately confronted with the question of who is Muhammad, peace be upon him, and this question had to be answered.

I would read the following verses in the Quraan:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Allâh has spoken the truth; follow the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham) Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism, i.e. he used to worship Allâh Alone), and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn.” (Aali Imran 3:95)

Then, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW saying): "Follow the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham) Hanifa, and he was not of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers, etc.). (An-Nahl 16:123)

And I would also read the verse explaining that Abraham was neither a Jew or a Christian:

Ibrâhim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa, and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn. (Aali Imran 3:67)

These verses intrigued me, as here was Allaah, commanding Muhammad to tell his followers to follow the religion of Abraham, because with so many man made teachings, it can be confusing as to what is the truth. So x it all, and follow the religion of Abraham. But what was this religion? He was not a Jew, as Judaism is based on the tribe of Judea, and he was not a Christian, as Christianity is based on Jesus, peace be upon him, would had not been sent yet. What was the religion of Abraham? Pure monotheism. Pure submission to his Lord. Pure “Islaam”…so much so that he was willing to sacrifice his son.

to be continued…

 

[jcaz]

So, here’s a thought-process that I had when trying to decipher who is and is not a real messenger. As Joe, one of the moderators, stated, religion does boil down to belief. So what would make me believe that Moses, or Isaac, or Noah, or jesus, or Muhammad, peace be upon them, were prophets? So imagine oneself at the time of prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, and imagine that you are one of his followers, believing in the one true God. Not a trinity, not a five-part God, but one God. And you believe that messengers will come to mankind, but you do not know who.

Now, you are warped through time and taken to the time of Moses, and it is up to you to decide if he is a messenger. So here were four questions I asked myself, being “a believer in the religion of Abraham”:

1. Is this person, in this case Moses, claiming to be a prophet from the religion of Abraham? The answer: Yes.
2. Are his teachings in line with those of Abraham? Yes.
3. Did God support him with miracles? Yes (ASSUME, since you are there at that time, that you SEE the miracles).
4. What was the result of his message? Well, we can see that Millions of people (Jews) followed the religion of Abraham as a result!
   ANSWER: Moses, peace be upon him, must have been a prophet.

So now you are time-warped to the time of Jesus, peace be upon him, and it is your task to see if he was a true prophet from your religion (Abrahamic faith). So again, here’s the questions:

1. Is this person, in this case Jesus, claiming to be a prophet from the religion of Abraham? The answer: Yes.
2. Are his teachings in line with those of Abraham? Yes (as Jesus ALWAYS called to the worship of his Lord, as he himself worshipped his Lord). And Jesus submittted to his Lord, as we can see in his life.
3. Did God support him with miracles? Yes (ASSUME, since you are there at that time, that you SEE the miracles).
4. What was the result of his message? Well, we can see that over ONE BILLION people (Christians) followed the religion of Abraham as a result!
   ANSWER: Jesus, peace be upon him, must have been a prophet.

Next, we come to David Koresh, and it is our job to decide if we think he is a prophet of our faith. So again, here are the questions:

1. Is this person, in this case David Koresh, claiming to be a prophet from the religion of Abraham? The answer: Yes.
2. Are his teachings in line with those of Abraham? NO.
3. Did God support him with miracles? NO.
4. What was the result of his message? Well, hundreds (i do not remember the exact number) of people were killed!
   ANSWER: He was NOT a prophet.

And we come to Muhammad, from the tribe of Quraysh, and it is our job to decide if we think he is a prophet of our faith. So, to the questions:

1. Is this person, in this case Muhammad, claiming to be a prophet from the religion of Abraham? The answer: Yes.
2. Are his teachings in line with those of Abraham? Yes, and actually, they are completely in line, as he his message was “la ilaaha illa Allaah”, “There is no diety worthy of worship except Allaah.”
3. Did God support him with miracles? Yes (ASSUME, since you are there at that time, that you SEE the miracles).
4. What was the result of his message? Well, we can see that over ONE BILLION people (Musilms) follow the religion of Abraham as a result!
   ANSWER: Muhammad, peace be upon him, must have been a prophet.

Those thoughts, amongst others, definitely made me decide to learn more about the teachings of Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam.

LASTLY: Yes, Ghosty and Hawk and others, you can come make many, many arguments to this. The point of this post is NOT to prove anything, as if it were, it would have many holes in it. As stated at the beginning, Ghosty asked me to share, and this was an opportunity to share some thoughts that went through my tiny, humble brain before I accepted Islaam.

Thank you.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

This perhaps the most ludicruous test.

There are many similar books and Allah challenges someone to produce a verse like on in the Quran here are some

islam-exposed.org/furqan/contents.html

Whilst I am sure muslims will do their best to dissect it.

The Quran will not hold up to the same kind of disection either, after all it is just a book.

thats the best they can do! lol…on the one hand…i felt bad for those people who wrote it…they will have to face God with lies they have created with their own hands in an attempt to mock God’s words…may God guide them before their time comes.

on the other hand…the Quranic arabic is on ANOTHER LEVEL…wow…alhamdulilah for Islam…

thanks for the laugh though

 

[Ghosty]

on the other hand…the Quranic arabic is on ANOTHER LEVEL…wow…alhamdulilah for Islam…

So is Shakespeare in the eyes of many English speakers. “It sounds pretty” is not a very stable basis of faith. All it requires for refutation is “it doesn’t sound pretty to me.”

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

So is Shakespeare in the eyes of many English speakers. “It sounds pretty” is not a very stable basis of faith. All it requires for refutation is “it doesn’t sound pretty to me.”

The Quran is extremely eloquent…I have seen non-arab speakers break down to tears upon just listneing to a recitiation of the Quran. But thats not why i say its amazing. Reread my posts!

SubhanAllah…all your rejections of the prophet are already in the Quran

All your excuses for asking the saints and Mary for things are already in the Quran

All the reasons why people reject truth are already in the Quran.

10 million people on this earth have that entire book memorized by heart. The words of God are actually with them in everything they do…reminding them of their purpose on earth.

Its eloquent…yes
But the guidance that is within it is breathtaking…alhamdulilah

 

[Ghosty]

The Quran is extremely eloquent…I have seen non-arab speakers break down to tears upon just listneing to a recitiation of the Quran. But thats not why i say its amazing. Reread my posts!

I’ve seen people cry when they cut onions. I’ve seen people cry at the end of “Revenge of the Nerds”. The fact that people break down and cry means nothing. I have read your posts, and you youself say you can’t explain how the Quran is so powerful. You say it’s as if it’s reading you, but that doesn’t really indicate anything more than for whatever reason you have an emotional response to reading a text. If I have the same emotional response reading “Othello” you would say that doesn’t mean anything. You need to be consistant.

SubhanAllah…all your rejections of the prophet are already in the Quran

All your excuses for asking the saints and Mary for things are already in the Quran

All the reasons why people reject truth are already in the Quran.

Of course those objections are in the Quran, because they’re the same objections that the Church has been making since before Mohammed was even born. We’ve been dealing with people who come along and make up “gospels” since Arabs were marching around a big rock worshipping pagan gods instead of walking around a big rock worshipping Allah. The fact that Mohammed wrote down the arguments Catholics were bringing up against him shows nothing of Divine Providence. On the contrary, it shows that he knew he was dealing in fallacies that had already been addressed and settled for centuries in both Judaism and Christianity.

Its eloquent…yes
But the guidance that is within it is breathtaking…alhamdulilah

A sign on the edge of a cliff that says “Thou shall not walk another step, lest you should fall and plummet to your death,” is both elegant and life-saving, but it ain’t the word of God.

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

I’ve seen people cry when they cut onions. I’ve seen people cry at the end of “Revenge of the Nerds”. The fact that people break down and cry means nothing. I have read your posts, and you youself say you can’t explain how the Quran is so powerful. You say it’s as if it’s reading you, but that doesn’t really indicate anything more than for whatever reason you have an emotional response to reading a text. If I have the same emotional response reading “Othello” you would say that doesn’t mean anything. You need to be consistant.

I said it is a book of GUIDANCE.

It has continually guided people. I mentioned Cat stevens before…all he did was read the Quran…he didnt even meet any muslim before his conversion…and that GUIDANCE resulted in him leaving his whole money-making famous life behind.

In any case, the Quran is clear. It is a guidance for those who have taqwa…are aware and consious of God. Others will say…

But the misbelievers say: “Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it.” In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood. (Quran 25:4)

Of course those objections are in the Quran, because they’re the same objections that the Church has been making since before Mohammed was even born. We’ve been dealing with people who come along and make up “gospels” since Arabs were marching around a big rock worshipping pagan gods instead of walking around a big rock worshipping Allah. The fact that Mohammed wrote down the arguments Catholics were bringing up against him shows nothing of Divine Providence. On the contrary, it shows that he knew he was dealing in fallacies that had already been addressed and settled for centuries in both Judaism and Christianity

And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening (Quran 25:5)

A sign on the edge of a cliff that says “Thou shall not walk another step, lest you should fall and plummet to your death,” is both elegant and life-saving, but it ain’t the word of God.

Say: “The (Qur’an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 25:6)

The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! would that I had taken a (straight) path with the Messenger. (Quran 25:27)

 

[Ghosty]

It has continually guided people. I mentioned Cat stevens before…all he did was read the Quran…he didnt even meet any muslim before his conversion…and that GUIDANCE resulted in him leaving his whole money-making famous life behind.

Guidance isn’t really something that can stand on its own. There’s good guidance, and bad guidance, right guidance and wrong guidance, and everything in between. The fact that something guides, or even guides someone to do nice things, does not make it the word of God.

And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening (Quran 25:5)

My point is that your assertion that it was addressed in the Quran means nothing. He was simply addressing things that were already there, and doing it poorly I might add because he misunderstood and misrepresented many of their teachings (another thread). It shows not providence on his part.

 

[TAWHEED1ST]

A kaafirah is not someone who is not muslim(by this i refer to the religion) my freind, I suggest you look up the meaning or ask someone who is more knowledgable than you in these matters.
I might be construed as a kaafir, none of these christians are kaafirs, please learn your faith.

1. do NOT even attempt to instruct a muslim on how he/she should follow islaam! you are FAR from being any kind of authority on islaam; and so are the orientalists FAR from it, because allaah tells us to obey those in authority and in this statement He does NOT mean infidels and He has used the words in the arabic which clearly indicate He is talking about those who are MUSLIMS and knowledgable of islaam!
2. the word كفر “kaafir” (with a small alif above the ك in written script and it would be pronounced كافر , but the keyboard doesn’t allow for me to type it correctly) comes from the word كفر “kufr” which means “cover”, and both these words come from كفره “kafarah” which means “to conceal (the truth)”.
   you are most definitely a kaafir if you don’t believe in islaam! by EVERY definition of the word!!! YOU are the one who needs to learn islaam, and to learn it from MUSLIM SCHOLARS and STUDENTS OF KNOWLEDGE and NOT from a non-muslim nor from yourself! you might also want to learn CLASSICAL arabic (not fusHa - the lingua franca - which is MODERNIZED arabic)!
   the word kaafir has often been translated as “infidel” in old texts and this word is actually more befitting a translation because EVERYBODY who isn’t a muslim is an infidel by default because of their infidelity towards the Creator, allaah!
   so give up the tactics of falsehood and do not try to change or alter a muslim’s understanding of a word which is so clear to any muslim who is upon the truth and not from the deviated sects such as the shi`ah!

I suppose calling people kaafirs is defending your faith?

this is a cheap shot, above, and an attempt to try to make people emotional so they get off topic or come back with a weak answer because of their emotions clouding their judgement! what you have said is FAR from the case and i think you know it too but are just being deliberately obstinate and devious! calling a spade a spade is not wrong, so rub the dirt out of your eyes and don’t build your home from sand on the shore!

Muslims never seize to amaze me, was it you who told me that I was kaafir for looking into shiism?

it is a WELL KNOWN FACT to ANY and ALL learned muslim that the shiah scholars of the twelver sect are considered as kuffaar and when the truth has been conveyed to their followers and they deny it and remain upon the polytheism they have been taught then so too are their followers kuffaar (infidels). the other sects of the shiah are ALL ENTIRELY kuffaar by unanimous agreement of the scholars of ahl-us-sunnah (the people of the sunnah) and this is supported by CLEAR evidence from the qur’aan and sunnah when their beliefs are tested against these two primary sources of islaam. all except the zaydi sect, from which there are different sub-sects, who are generally not ALL considered as kuffaar whereas some of the zaydi sub-sects are all considered as kuffaar. the zaydi people who are not considered as kuffaar are considered as deviants upon false beliefs that don’t necessarily remove them entirely from islaam!

Christians give da'wah by their sunnah, not by calling people kaafirs.

what is the sunnah of the christians? is it to offer their left cheek to get slapped after their right cheek has been slapped, etc. or is it to travel to every land they can spreading terror and raping and pillaging and forcing their polytheistic beliefs upon every person they come into contact with? from what i can see up until today, it is the latter! if it is the former then kindly explain the history of the church and the modern leaders of the christians (bush and his slaves) and explain how this fits in with the turning and offering of the other cheek!

And a fine job of it you are doing too!

i think he is doing fine from what i have seen so far of what the brother has said and it seems clear to me that your view is contrary to this!

i wish to make a point… please answer me this:

if you wished to learn biochemistry then do you go to a baker, whose expertise is in baking bread and making cakes alone, to learn this science or do you read a few books you bought from your local bookshop and henceforth consider yourself an expert in the field or do you go to an expert biochemist to learn from him?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hopefully you will be able to explain the source of your faith without resorting to using the Quran, because that will not be accepted as a valid approach, even for Christians.

Hi

If what Noah said, is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, and what Abraham
Said, is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, and what Moses said is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, and what Jesus said is to be believed from the Word revealed on him; and then why use double standards.

Please understand Muhammad from the Word i.e. Quran, revealed on him by GodAllahYHWH.
Your approach is simply biased, inconsistent and unprincipled.

Please have one standard.

Thanks

 

[Verisimilitude]

And we come to Muhammad, from the tribe of Quraysh, and it is our job to decide if we think he is a prophet of our faith. So, to the questions:

1. Is this person, in this case Muhammad, claiming to be a prophet from the religion of Abraham? The answer: Yes.
2. Are his teachings in line with those of Abraham? Yes, and actually, they are completely in line, as he his message was “la ilaaha illa Allaah”, “There is no diety worthy of worship except Allaah.”
3. Did God support him with miracles? Yes (ASSUME, since you are there at that time, that you SEE the miracles).
4. What was the result of his message? Well, we can see that over ONE BILLION people (Musilms) follow the religion of Abraham as a result!
   ANSWER: Muhammad, peace be upon him, must have been a prophet.

1. The claim itself is irrelevent, and has no support other than the words of mohamed.
2. If Mohameds teachings were in line with Abraham he would have practiced as the Jews have been for 2000 years. The Jews clearly rejected Mohameds view of Judaism.
3. allah says in the Quran the only sign to be given is that of the Quran. The miracles ascribed to mohamed after his death are not valid.
4. The result has been a intolerant religious/military expansion that divides the world into two camps; Moslem and non-Moslem.

 

[Booklover]

1. do NOT even attempt to instruct a muslim on how he/she should follow islaam! you are FAR from being any kind of authority on islaam; and so are the orientalists FAR from it, because allaah tells us to obey those in authority and in this statement He does NOT mean infidels and He has used the words in the arabic which clearly indicate He is talking about those who are MUSLIMS and knowledgable of islaam!
2. the word كفر “kaafir” (with a small alif above the ك in written script and it would be pronounced كافر , but the keyboard doesn’t allow for me to type it correctly) comes from the word كفر “kufr” which means “cover”, and both these words come from كفره “kafarah” which means “to conceal (the truth)”.
   you are most definitely a kaafir if you don’t believe in islaam! by EVERY definition of the word!!! YOU are the one who needs to learn islaam, and to learn it from MUSLIM SCHOLARS and STUDENTS OF KNOWLEDGE and NOT from a non-muslim nor from yourself! you might also want to learn CLASSICAL arabic (not fusHa - the lingua franca - which is MODERNIZED arabic)!
   the word kaafir has often been translated as “infidel” in old texts and this word is actually more befitting a translation because EVERYBODY who isn’t a muslim is an infidel by default because of their infidelity towards the Creator, allaah!
   so give up the tactics of falsehood and do not try to change or alter a muslim’s understanding of a word which is so clear to any muslim who is upon the truth and not from the deviated sects such as the shi`ah!

this is a cheap shot, above, and an attempt to try to make people emotional so they get off topic or come back with a weak answer because of their emotions clouding their judgement! what you have said is FAR from the case and i think you know it too but are just being deliberately obstinate and devious! calling a spade a spade is not wrong, so rub the dirt out of your eyes and don’t build your home from sand on the shore!

it is a WELL KNOWN FACT to ANY and ALL learned muslim that the shiah scholars of the twelver sect are considered as kuffaar and when the truth has been conveyed to their followers and they deny it and remain upon the polytheism they have been taught then so too are their followers kuffaar (infidels). the other sects of the shiah are ALL ENTIRELY kuffaar by unanimous agreement of the scholars of ahl-us-sunnah (the people of the sunnah) and this is supported by CLEAR evidence from the qur’aan and sunnah when their beliefs are tested against these two primary sources of islaam. all except the zaydi sect, from which there are different sub-sects, who are generally not ALL considered as kuffaar whereas some of the zaydi sub-sects are all considered as kuffaar. the zaydi people who are not considered as kuffaar are considered as deviants upon false beliefs that don’t necessarily remove them entirely from islaam!

what is the sunnah of the christians? is it to offer their left cheek to get slapped after their right cheek has been slapped, etc. or is it to travel to every land they can spreading terror and raping and pillaging and forcing their polytheistic beliefs upon every person they come into contact with? from what i can see up until today, it is the latter! if it is the former then kindly explain the history of the church and the modern leaders of the christians (bush and his slaves) and explain how this fits in with the turning and offering of the other cheek!

i think he is doing fine from what i have seen so far of what the brother has said and it seems clear to me that your view is contrary to this!

i wish to make a point… please answer me this:

if you wished to learn biochemistry then do you go to a baker, whose expertise is in baking bread and making cakes alone, to learn this science or do you read a few books you bought from your local bookshop and henceforth consider yourself an expert in the field or do you go to an expert biochemist to learn from him?

Blah, blah, blah, spoken like a true follower of Muhammad! Since your prophet gave you license to lie to the unbelievers, why should we kaffirs believe anything in a Muslim site. You only want us to go there, so you can deceive us with your lies about the religion of “peace”. The only ones who tell the truth about Islam are those who leave it!

Vickie

 

[adrift]

Hi

If what Noah said, is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, and what Abraham
Said, is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, and what Moses said is to be believed and understood from the Word of GodAllahYHWH Thanks

revealed on him, and what Jesus said is to be believed from the Word revealed on him; and then why use double standards.

Please understand Muhammad from the Word i.e. Quran, revealed on him by GodAllahYHWH.
Your approach is simply biased, inconsistent and unprincipled.

Please have one standard.

Did you not read her entire post? Your statement above makes not sense especially in light of what she said.

Catholics do not, contrary to what’s expressed here, base their belief in Jesus off of the Bible. In fact, we base our belief in the Bible on the oral testimony of the Apostles, and the non-Scriptural, and even non-Christian, accounts of what the Apostles taught. The Bible is the result of Christian belief, not the cause of it. The Catholic Church existed before any of the Bible was written down, and this is attested to by historical records, espescially Jewish ones.

Please read carefully an entire post before picking one sentence out of it to condemn

 

[TAWHEED1ST]

1. The claim itself is irrelevent, and has no support other than the words of mohamed.

1. this is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD, & this is why you are an infidel to your Creator! MANY companions, as well as the wives of the prophet muHammad - alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam - lived on after he departed from this material existence & they all reported the miracles of him as well as his exact teachings of the meanings (tafsiir) of the qur'aan & implimentations (sunnah) of the qur'aan. the community of muslims that accumulated during the lifetime of the prophet - Sallaa'llaahu alayhi wa sallim - was FAR LARGER than the companions of isa (jesus, as you know him - alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam). this large community, plus their children who witnessed his life, passed on this knowledge in pristine form because they (the companions - radhiyallaahu taaala anhum) are the first to have started the sciences of chains of narration & criticism of narrators! then these sciences became more stringent as time went on, in order to assure no liars were accepted as trustworthy narrators, etc.

1. If Mohameds teachings were in line with Abraham he would have practiced as the Jews have been for 2000 years. The Jews clearly rejected Mohameds view of Judaism.

1. are your christian teachings in line with what the jews believe? the answer is an emphatic NO. therefore this is a weak & illogical statement & carries NO weight whatsoever even from your side of things. plus the jews are known to everybody, including christians, as the liars & slanderers & revilers & attackers & murderers of all the prophets & they are also known as the most beligerant & the biggest fabricators of lies & deciet. just look at their talmud to find this out & see how they revile prophet isa (jesus) - alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam - & his mother - alayhas-Salaatu was-salaamah - & know that their talmud is a watered down & encoded version of what occultists call "the key of sulaymaan"! it is based on the magic the jews learned from the two angels, haruut & maruut, whilst in babylonian captivit (they falsely attributed this book to sulaymaan - alaynhis-salaam - and called him a sorceror)!
   so, the question is: knowing all this about the jews, do you still take them as an authority & do you STILL consider them as “the chosen people”? if so, then why aren’t you a jew?

1. allah says in the Quran the only sign to be given is that of the Quran. The miracles ascribed to mohamed after his death are not valid.

you have committed shirk (polytheism) by assuming you know better about the qur’aan than the very prophet it was revealed to, & this is how you have the audacity to make up your own false interpretations of the qur’aan rather than accepting the correct ones as taught by prophet muHammad - `alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam - himself! this act of yours is enough even to land a muslim in the hellfire because this entails that you believe you know more about the qur’aan than the very Creator, allaah, who revealed it to His messenger!

the prophet, Sallaa’llaahu `alayhi wa sallim, said:
whoso lies upon me, then let him prepare for his seat in the fire (of hell)

he, `alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam, also said:
whoso interprets the qur’aan based on his own opinions and is correct has gone astray (from the straight path), & whoso interprets the qur’aan based on his own opinions and is incorrect then let him prepare for his seat in the fire (of hell)

1. The result has been a intolerant religious/military expansion that divides the world into two camps; Moslem and non-Moslem.

yes, that is absolutely correct in many ways, al-Hamdu-lillaah!
we do not tolerate falsehood nor lies; neither do we tolerate evil; nor do we tolerate people attacking us & trying to destroy our religion; nor do we tolerate people trying to murder us or our relatives or our muslim brothers & sisters & their children; nor do we tolerate it when people try to force their man made laws upon us or try to take our lands &/or our homes (& the list goes on)
& there are two camps only, in REALITY… believers & infidels! like it or not, it will never change the facts no matter what you believe or try to convince yourselves of… i could buy a red car because it’s the last colour of my favourite car they had left, but that does NOT mean i could close my eyes & believe it’s actually blue & then open my eyes & find it has become blue by itself!

 

[Booklover]

1. do NOT even attempt to instruct a muslim on how he/she should follow islaam! you are FAR from being any kind of authority on islaam; and so are the orientalists FAR from it, because allaah tells us to obey those in authority and in this statement He does NOT mean infidels and He has used the words in the arabic which clearly indicate He is talking about those who are MUSLIMS and knowledgable of islaam!
2. the word كفر “kaafir” (with a small alif above the ك in written script and it would be pronounced كافر , but the keyboard doesn’t allow for me to type it correctly) comes from the word كفر “kufr” which means “cover”, and both these words come from كفره “kafarah” which means “to conceal (the truth)”.
   you are most definitely a kaafir if you don’t believe in islaam! by EVERY definition of the word!!! YOU are the one who needs to learn islaam, and to learn it from MUSLIM SCHOLARS and STUDENTS OF KNOWLEDGE and NOT from a non-muslim nor from yourself! you might also want to learn CLASSICAL arabic (not fusHa - the lingua franca - which is MODERNIZED arabic)!
   the word kaafir has often been translated as “infidel” in old texts and this word is actually more befitting a translation because EVERYBODY who isn’t a muslim is an infidel by default because of their infidelity towards the Creator, allaah!
   so give up the tactics of falsehood and do not try to change or alter a muslim’s understanding of a word which is so clear to any muslim who is upon the truth and not from the deviated sects such as the shi`ah!

this is a cheap shot, above, and an attempt to try to make people emotional so they get off topic or come back with a weak answer because of their emotions clouding their judgement! what you have said is FAR from the case and i think you know it too but are just being deliberately obstinate and devious! calling a spade a spade is not wrong, so rub the dirt out of your eyes and don’t build your home from sand on the shore!

it is a WELL KNOWN FACT to ANY and ALL learned muslim that the shiah scholars of the twelver sect are considered as kuffaar and when the truth has been conveyed to their followers and they deny it and remain upon the polytheism they have been taught then so too are their followers kuffaar (infidels). the other sects of the shiah are ALL ENTIRELY kuffaar by unanimous agreement of the scholars of ahl-us-sunnah (the people of the sunnah) and this is supported by CLEAR evidence from the qur’aan and sunnah when their beliefs are tested against these two primary sources of islaam. all except the zaydi sect, from which there are different sub-sects, who are generally not ALL considered as kuffaar whereas some of the zaydi sub-sects are all considered as kuffaar. the zaydi people who are not considered as kuffaar are considered as deviants upon false beliefs that don’t necessarily remove them entirely from islaam!

what is the sunnah of the christians? is it to offer their left cheek to get slapped after their right cheek has been slapped, etc. or is it to travel to every land they can spreading terror and raping and pillaging and forcing their polytheistic beliefs upon every person they come into contact with? from what i can see up until today, it is the latter! if it is the former then kindly explain the history of the church and the modern leaders of the christians (bush and his slaves) and explain how this fits in with the turning and offering of the other cheek!

i think he is doing fine from what i have seen so far of what the brother has said and it seems clear to me that your view is contrary to this!

i wish to make a point… please answer me this:

if you wished to learn biochemistry then do you go to a baker, whose expertise is in baking bread and making cakes alone, to learn this science or do you read a few books you bought from your local bookshop and henceforth consider yourself an expert in the field or do you go to an expert biochemist to learn from him?

You are allowed to lie to the unbelievers, so why should we go to a Muslim site? We may be kaffirs, but we are not stupid!

Vickie

 

[Verisimilitude]

1. this is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD, & this is why you are an infidel to your Creator!

So says your prohet and no one else.

MANY companions, as well as the wives of the prophet muHammad - `alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam - lived on after he departed from this material existence & they all reported the miracles of him as well as his exact teachings of the meanings (tafsiir) of the qur’aan & implimentations (sunnah) of the qur’aan.

So the quran is wrong then since it says the quran is the only proof needed or given?
Sura 29: 50 And they say: "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord? Say: “The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.”
51 Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe.

the community of muslims that accumulated during the lifetime of the prophet - Sallaa’llaahu alayhi wa sallim - was FAR LARGER than the companions of isa (jesus, as you know him - `alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam).

Because your prophet made it proffitable to be Moslem, and Jesus taught a different way of life.

1. are your christian teachings in line with what the jews believe? the answer is an emphatic NO. therefore this is a weak & illogical statement & carries NO weight whatsoever even from your side of things. plus the jews are known to everybody, including christians, as the liars & slanderers & revilers & attackers & murderers of all the prophets & they are also known as the most beligerant & the biggest fabricators of lies & deciet. just look at their talmud to find this out & see how they revile prophet isa (jesus) - - & his mother - - & know that their talmud is a watered down & encoded version of what occultists call “the key of sulaymaan”! it is based on the magic the jews learned from the two angels, haruut & maruut, whilst in babylonian captivit (they falsely attributed this book to - and called him a sorceror)!
   so, the question is: knowing all this about the jews, do you still take them as an authority & do you STILL consider them as “the chosen people”? if so, then why aren’t you a jew?

All past prophets were Jews and were sent to the Jews only. Yes, they are a valid authority with respect to the OT, yes they will forever be the Chosen People even if I think the reason they were chosen has been completed with Christ. Jesus was a Jew and He fullfilled the law, extending Gods Word to the rest of the world…is why I am not a Jew. Why don’t you listen to Christ?

you have committed shirk (polytheism) by assuming you know better about the qur’aan than the very prophet it was revealed to, & this is how you have the audacity to make up your own false interpretations of the qur’aan rather than accepting the correct ones as taught by prophet muHammad - - himself! this act of yours is enough even to land a muslim in the hellfire because this entails that you believe you know more about the qur’aan than the very Creator, allaah, who revealed it to His messenger!

I am not making false interpretations of the quran. I accept it as you recite it, I just conclude that “death to the unbeliever” rant is not from God. It is not a false interpretation that only mohamed heard the revelations, that no miracles are to be given to mohamed as a sign other than the quran, or that mohamed had a incorrect view of Jews and Christians of the 7th century as you do today.

the prophet, , said:
whoso lies upon me, then let him prepare for his seat in the fire (of hell)

I’m not telling any lies about mohamed. He had people assassinated that mocked him. He raided caravans to keep his converts from leaving Islam. He married a child, his adopted sons wife, and a few slaves, not to mention the comfort he took with women whom his right hand possessed. These are not admirable attributes to have as a man, in my opinion, much less a man of God.

yes, that is absolutely correct in many ways, al-Hamdu-lillaah!
we do not tolerate falsehood nor lies; neither do we tolerate evil; nor do we tolerate people attacking us & trying to destroy our religion; nor do we tolerate people trying to murder us or our relatives or our muslim brothers & sisters & their children; nor do we tolerate it when people try to force their man made laws upon us or try to take our lands &/or our homes (& the list goes on)

That is the point of it all. Your view of what is a lie, or evil is upside down. Murder is wrong unless done in the name of mohamed. Stealing is wrong unles done for the good of the community. Tolerance is right unless it is toward a non-Moslem. Only another Moslem is a brother, the rest are targets.

What of the lands and homes Moslems stole from Christians and Jews, and others in the past 1400 years?

 

[TAWHEED1ST]

You are allowed to lie to the unbelievers, so why should we go to a Muslim site? We may be kaffirs, but we are not stupid!

Vickie

you MUST be stupid if you believe this!

i used to be a christian for a start!

secondly, any muslim who lies about islaam to anybody, muslim or non-muslim, immediately leaves the fold of islaam and becomes a kaafir for covering up the truth!

you are confusing islaam with shi`ah pagan magianism!

the two are completely different religions and if you did a proper and objective study then you would realise the shiah are really pagan magians using islaam as a cover and they would like nothing more than to destroy islaam which is why they have been trying to do so from the indside for over 14 centuries! but we muslims are not stupid and we know about and remember their treachery all throughout history ever since their beginning! if you actually bothered to study, you would know it is a shii principle to lie about their beliefs and NOT a muslim principle!

usool al-kaafi is a SHI`AH book NOT a sunni book!

usool al-kaafi says such things as:

taqiyyah (dissimulation) is nine tenths of the religion.

and it says many other such falsehoods that are COMPLETELY contrary to the teachings of islaam!

my advice to you is STAY AWAY from kaafir shi`ah!

 

[TAWHEED1ST]

So says your prohet and no one else.

So the quran is wrong then since it says the quran is the only proof needed or given?
Sura 29: 50 And they say: "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord? Say: “The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.”
51 Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe.

Because your prophet made it proffitable to be Moslem, and Jesus taught a different way of life.

All past prophets were Jews and were sent to the Jews only. Yes, they are a valid authority with respect to the OT, yes they will forever be the Chosen People even if I think the reason they were chosen has been completed with Christ. Jesus was a Jew and He fullfilled the law, extending Gods Word to the rest of the world…is why I am not a Jew. Why don’t you listen to Christ?

I am not making false interpretations of the quran. I accept it as you recite it, I just conclude that “death to the unbeliever” rant is not from God. It is not a false interpretation that only mohamed heard the revelations, that no miracles are to be given to mohamed as a sign other than the quran, or that mohamed had a incorrect view of Jews and Christians of the 7th century as you do today.

I’m not telling any lies about mohamed. He had people assassinated that mocked him. He raided caravans to keep his converts from leaving Islam. He married a child, his adopted sons wife, and a few slaves, not to mention the comfort he took with women whom his right hand possessed. These are not admirable attributes to have as a man, in my opinion, much less a man of God.

That is the point of it all. Your view of what is a lie, or evil is upside down. Murder is wrong unless done in the name of mohamed. Stealing is wrong unles done for the good of the community. Tolerance is right unless it is toward a non-Moslem. Only another Moslem is a brother, the rest are targets.

What of the lands and homes Moslems stole from Christians and Jews, and others in the past 1400 years?

i will deal with your lies, distortions, arrogance, foolishness and UTTER blindness when i get back from a good sleep! you seem devoid of all wisdom to tell the truth and all you can do is speak nonsense! and yes you are guilty of both distorting the meaning of the qur’aan and lying against the prophet muHammad - Sallaa’llaahu `alayhi wa sallim!

you worship a man! you worship an angel! and you say they are equal to allaah!

i challenge you to explain your trinitarian doctrine in a logical and nonsensical way that has NOT EVEN A SINGLE hole in it!

i will bring my monotheist creed in the open for you to examine carefully and we’ll see what you have to say then!
ALL prophets were MONOTHEISTS, NOT TRINITARIAN POLYTHEISTS!
name me even one single prophet who worshipped a human being and an angel alongside allaah!!! YOU CANNOT!!!
paul the ROMAN PAGAN has duped you majorly!!!
first he tried to get rid of the true followers of isa - alayhis-salaam - by the use of the sword and then when he saw it was failing he put down the sword and picked up the pen and robbed your faith!!!

by the way, it is YOUR religion as well as judaism and shi`ism that instructs the followers to lie to and decieve people about your faith… have you read the words of paul the roman pagan liar who said to become like a people to dupe them step by step into following your beliefs??? is this not dissimulation, deciet, trickery and lying??? go back to RE classes in sister dennis mary’s room in D block at school and relearn your religious doctrine of paul… except this time remember my words and pay attention to what they “teach” you! maybe one day you might begin to see the difference between paulianity and the truth, inshaa’llaah!!!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

1. this is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD, & this is why you are an infidel to your Creator! MANY companions, as well as the wives of the prophet muHammad - alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam - lived on after he departed from this material existence & they all reported the miracles of him as well as his exact teachings of the meanings (tafsiir) of the qur'aan & implimentations (sunnah) of the qur'aan. the community of muslims that accumulated during the lifetime of the prophet - Sallaa'llaahu alayhi wa sallim - was FAR LARGER than the companions of isa (jesus, as you know him - alayhis-Salaatu was-salaam). this large community, plus their children who witnessed his life, passed on this knowledge in pristine form because they (the companions - radhiyallaahu taaala anhum) are the first to have started the sciences of chains of narration & criticism of narrators! then these sciences became more stringent as time went on, in order to assure no liars were accepted as trustworthy narrators, etc.

I think you misunderstand what is meant. Muhammad’s claim is only a claim - his witnessing (i.e. through Jibril) was seen by nobody.

The fact that he told his claim to many people who then perpetuate it is irrelevant. He could have told a million people and it wouldn’t make a difference.

The starting point is still the same: Muhammad claimed to have witnessed from Jibril the word of God while he was alone, without attending miracles so others can join in the witnessing.

There was nothing miraculous about the life of Muhammad that would point to anything divine. Unless you consider killing, murder, torture, raiding caravans and villages, raping female captives, enslaving women and children, stealing livestock and having sex with a little girl to be divine.

Sorry if the truth hurts but tell us:

1. Who else witnessed Muhammad’s conversations with Jibril (not just the epileptic fits)?
2. What miracles did Muhammad perform?

It all boils down to the word of one man.

This man did these deeds: killing, murder, torture, raiding caravans and villages, raping female captives, enslaving women and children, stealing livestock and having sex with a little girl.

I’m afraid to say I would consider the mass-murder in my state gaol to be of higher credibility than someone like that.

Please reply with less anger.

Thank you.

Rodrigo.

 

[Verisimilitude]

i will deal with your lies, distortions, arrogance, foolishness and UTTER blindness when i get back from a good sleepyou seem devoid of all …

Pleasant dreams.

you worship a man! you worship an angel! and you say they are equal to allaah!

That is not very accurate, but if that is how you view the Trinity I will say they are not equal to God they are One God.

i challenge you to explain your trinitarian doctrine in a logical and nonsensical way that has NOT EVEN A SINGLE hole in it!

I can do that, but this thread is about Mohamed and the many holes in his story (Quran) and objectionable personal character. Please start a thread about Jesus.

i will bring my monotheist creed in the open for you to examine carefully and we’ll see what you have to say then!

That’s OK, I know it. Mohamed is not trustworthy and he gave you the creed.

ALL prophets were MONOTHEISTS…alongside allaah!!! YOU CANNOT!!!

OK. Relax. Don’t go to bed angry. I don’t want you to wake up in a bad mood. Do you know a prayer called “Our Father”? I like it, you might too. Mix things up a little and say that in your first prayer when you get up.

paul the ROMAN PAGAN has duped you majorly!!!
first he tried to get rid of the true followers of isa - alayhis-salaam - by the use of the sword and then when he saw it was failing he put down the sword and picked up the pen and robbed your faith!!!

Even that should serve as a lesson, wrong as it is. The pen is mightier than the sword…so put down your swords and write a book.

by the way…. go back to RE classes in sister dennis mary’s room in D block at school and …

Her name was Sister Mary Elephant….Rent a movie called the “Blues Brothers”…she was kind of like that.

I know you won’t get the humor, but your are not getting much else either.