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r.gonzales
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not such a neat trick. in fact, i wouldn’t expect any less from any person of jewish faith, let alone the orthodox. but, in any case, thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Joseph_Alison
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Salaam Friend ssv;
It’s good to have you here. I am sure we will all benefit from your knowledge.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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Ghosty
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You should know better by now that that isn’t enough to get Catholics to gang up on you
Remember, we’re the ones who basically wrote in our Scriptures “This is what we (Christian Jews) believe about what was written, but those crazy Pharisees disagree.” It’s understood from the word go that you disagree on certain interpretations, and a goodly chunk of our Scripture is devoted to pointing that out
Incidently, nothing about your rendering goes against the Catholic reading of that passage to my knowledge. In fact, its exactly the impression I got when reading it.
Thanks for your contribution, friend
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The_Eurasian
Guest
So the Old Testament is called the “TANAKH”? Thanks for the info.Hi all!
We (Jews, orthodox Jews) do not believe that there are any references to either Jesus or Muhammad anywhere in the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), period.
ssv
With regards to references to Jesus in the Old Testament, THERE ARE OVER 20 PROPHECIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WITH REGARDS TO THE MESSIAH THAT ALL CAME TRUE IN THE LIFE OF JESUS.
Other Catholics and Christians can tell you what those prophecies were. I can only remember some of them.
“THEY SHALL BREAK NO BONE OF HIS” is one of them. You see in the cruxifixion, the legs of the two thieves who were crucified with him were broken so that they will die faster. But when they checked Jesus, they saw that he was already dead. SO THEY DID NOT BREAK HIS LEGS.
Another prophecy, if I am not mistaken is that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
Another is that the Messiah will be of the line of King David.
A fourth is that “THE VIRGIN WILL GIVE BIRTH”. Even the prophet of the Muslims, MUHAMMAD, DEFENDED THE VIRGIN BIRTH AGAINST SLANDERS. ACCORDING TO MUHAMMAD’S VERSION, THE MUSLIM VERSION, THE NEWLY BORN INFANT ISA (JESUS) SPOKE FROM THE CRADDLE AND DEFENDED HIS MOTHER MARYAM (MARY).
There are more than 20 such prophecies in the Old Testament with regards to the Messiah AND THEY ALL CAME TRUE IN THE LIFE OF JESUS WHICH PROBABILITY WISE IS IMPOSSIBLE. THAT"S WHY CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH!!
If others will tell you what those other prophecies were, CAN YOU PRINT THEM HERE FOR ALL TO SEE??? Thanks.
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Booklover
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No, I do not deny the miracles of the messengers, I just don’t think that Mohammed’s claim to be a “messenger” is valid!
If what I’ve read is right, Mohammed claimed the Qur’an as his only miracle and when unbelievers asked him to perform wonders he refused! As I’ve said before, anyone can write a book or have it written for him, and claim that the revelations came from God! Anyone who makes a claim like that, had better have lots of backup to validate that claim, and in Mohammed’s case that proof is lacking,
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janG
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"One of Muhammad’s employers was Khadijah, a rich widow then 40 years old. The young 25-year old Muhammad so impressed Khadijah that she offered him marriage in the year 595. He became a wealthy man by this marriage.
Khadija was the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad. Originally a follower of Judaism, according to traditions she became the first female convert to Islam.
Khadija’s distant cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal, was a monk and a convert to the Nestorian Christian sect. When Muhammad reportedly started receiving revelations, Waraqah identified him as the Prophet." Source: Wikipedia
Do you understand that Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a heretic? You keep saying that Christians affirmed Mohammed as a prophet, but what you apparently don’t understand, is they were not really Christians. They believed a heresy (false teachings) condemed by the Church. They did not believe what the Catholic Church (the church founded by Christ and given authority by Christ) teaches. So to trust a heretic’s word that Mohammed was a new prophet and predicted by Christian scripture is shocking. You’re basically saying you can prove Mohammed was a prophet based on the word of a liar.
Matt 7
[15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” (Jesus)
Khadija was the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad. Originally a follower of Judaism, according to traditions she became the first female convert to Islam.
Khadija’s distant cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal, was a monk and a convert to the Nestorian Christian sect. When Muhammad reportedly started receiving revelations, Waraqah identified him as the Prophet." Source: Wikipedia
Do you understand that Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a heretic? You keep saying that Christians affirmed Mohammed as a prophet, but what you apparently don’t understand, is they were not really Christians. They believed a heresy (false teachings) condemed by the Church. They did not believe what the Catholic Church (the church founded by Christ and given authority by Christ) teaches. So to trust a heretic’s word that Mohammed was a new prophet and predicted by Christian scripture is shocking. You’re basically saying you can prove Mohammed was a prophet based on the word of a liar.
Matt 7
[15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” (Jesus)
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Booklover
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Thanks for the compliment! And yes, I do believe totally and completely that Jesus Christ, the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, died for me and for all mankind for our salvation and that on the 3rd day after his death and burial, he rose again from the dead! Alleluia!
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Ghosty
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TheEurasian: The point is that even if Jews absolutely read those to be prophesies about the Messiah (which they don’t necessarily), they DON’T believe they refer to Jesus of Nazareth.
Whether or not they are wrong in their point of view is irrelevant, SSV’s statement absolutely stands as valid.
When the Messiah comes (again?), the matter will be settled definatively
Regardless, that is not the topic of the thread.
Whether or not they are wrong in their point of view is irrelevant, SSV’s statement absolutely stands as valid.
When the Messiah comes (again?), the matter will be settled definatively
Regardless, that is not the topic of the thread.
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Booklover
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So, Mohammed testifies to the Qur’an and the Qur’an testifies to Mohammed, Mohammed testifies to the Qur’an and the Qur’an testifies to Mohammed. Circular reasoning?? Proves nothing.
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Booklover
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So, Mohammed testifies to the Qur’an and the Qur’an testifies to Mohammed, Mohammed testifies to the Qur’an and the Qur’an testifies to Mohammed. Circular reasoning?? Proves nothing.
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Faith101
Guest
That is incorrect. Mohamed peace be upon him performed many miracles.
1400 years ago, people asked for a miracle to prove that he was indeed a messenger from God. Here is the story.
Five years before the immigration of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) from Mecca to Medina, a group of people from the tribe of Quraish came challenging him saying: Oh** Muhammad if you were really a Prophet and a Messenger bring to us a miracle to establish this fact.** So he asked them what do you want? They said in an effort to complicate matters for him: split the moon for us. The Messenger of ALLAH (PBUH) stood supplicating to Allah to support him and grant him victory in this hard situation. Allah may He be Exalted inspired him to sign towards the moon with his finger. Immediately, the moon cleft into two parts standing far from each other for several hours then cling back together. The pagans started claiming: Oh Muhammad (PBUH) practiced witchcraft on us.
THis story is touched upon in the Quran
The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder
But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, “This is (but) transient magic.” (Quran 54:1-2)
LIke many others denied the miracles of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, claiming that he was a magician…so did people deny the miracles of Mohamed peace be upon him.
you can read the begining of chapter 54 (al Qamar) if you want to know about the people who rejected the messengers and what their fate will be.
by the way, have you ever read the Quran? It really amazes me every time someone says that Mohamed wrote it or someone told him what to write. SubhanAllah, that book is nothing short of divine revelation. But like the pagans before, some people will just deny the truth and follow their desires. May God guide us all.
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Faith101
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Khadiga was a Jew? Source please
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Booklover
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If he did perform other miracles, why did he not acknowledge them??
Mohammed’s name isn’t even mentioned in 54:1-2! If this really happened, where is the evidence that it was seen throughout the world???
Please check out post #19 and see what you think of that.
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Faith101
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what do you mean he didnt acknowledge them?
This is the art of tafseer. You have to know about Islamic history and when that verse was **revealed ** in order to fully understand the verse.
please paste revelant issues from that post here.
p.s. I dont expect that you readily accept the miracles of Mohamed peace be upon him or that he was a messenger from God. I mean, Jesus peace be upon him, made many miracles in front of people and they rejected him and called him many bad names. The pagans of Mohamed’s time did the same thing. Disbelievers will disbelieve even if the truth is put right smack in their face. SubhanALlah, the Quran talks about this also.
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Ghosty
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Faith101: Post #19 is very short and only contains one issue and point. Here, I’ll quote the entire original part of the post for you:
There ya go.
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Faith101
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thanks GhostyFaith101: Post #19 is very short and only contains one issue and point. Here, I’ll quote the entire original part of the post for you:
There ya go.
I dont know how to find post numbers quickly with the different subsets.
I believe several posts have been doing just that…giving eye witness accounts outside of the Quran itself…whether or not people choose to accept them.
Also, Mohamed’s (pbuh) life as a whole is a testimony to his prophethood. From the way he dealt with people to the way he was able to deal with everything from religion to state to army to family.
I just dont understand why anyone truly searching for the truth would think Mohamed (pbuh) made it up. What did he have to gain? He could have made himself a god or a son of god…but the Quran CLEARLY states that he was nothing more than a man and a messenger from God. It even goes so far as to CORRECT him on minor mistakes that he has done.
In the begining when revelation starting coming to him, the pagans offered him EVERYTHING to stop calling to the worship of one God and he rejected.
Thats just one thing. The revelation that was given to him is still preserved in the exact way he recieved it. Not only that, but there are over a billion people who believe it to be the direct words of God with not a single ounce of man’s work. And every day those billion people pray for God to guide them “to the straight path.”
The Quran is what brought me to the worship of my creator. Its words are so powerful and so moving… calling only to the worship of ONE GOD with no partners. When reading it in arabic…the entire book is nothing short of divine scripture…i dont know how to explain it…but when i’m reading the Quran…i feel that it is actually reading me…responding to how i am feeling and guiding me. A book that was revealed in 7th century arabia with the capability to personally interact with a girl born and raised in america living in 2005…its amazing.
p.s. you make it seem as if you can just sit there and right a book like the Quran…i challenge you to do that. better yet, God challenges you.
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The_Eurasian
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Ghosty ---Post #63:
Are you not the fellow who quoted stillsmallvoice post#60 in your post#63 ?
Well I am answering stillsmallvoice’s contention which you yourself quoted BY POINTING OUT THAT PROPHECIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT WERE FULFILLED IN JESUS’ LIFE.
Why? You think there will ever be a time in the future where another person will be born of a virgin, without any of this clonning business by doctors??? Furthermore, where the child born of a virgin will be a male, who in his entire life as a human being will commit no sin at all!!! You think this will ever happen again???
I know that the title of this topic is “Prophet Mohammed.” But what do you exoect us to do??? BE SILENT SO THAT PEOPLE WILL SAY THAT JESUS IS NOT REFERED TO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT???
The topic may have one title. But things that people bring into the discussion can be stimuli for other discussions. Take for example the very useful medicine penicillin. The researcher had a topic. He was searching for something. But what he was searching which he believed was important was actually of no importance. But in his untidyness, he accidentally saw this mold winning the battle against the other molds. That mold happened to be penicillin!!! AND IT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT DISCOVERY WHICH SAVED MANY MANY MANY LIVES!!!
If you let the poster of the main topic dictate everything that we will discuss, I think you will be preventing God from bringing in surprises.
GhostyYou should know better by now that that isn’t enough to get Catholics to gang up on you
Remember, we’re the ones who basically wrote in our Scriptures “This is what we (Christian Jews) believe about what was written, but those crazy Pharisees disagree.” It’s understood from the word go that you disagree on certain interpretations, and a goodly chunk of our Scripture is devoted to pointing that out
Incidently, nothing about your rendering goes against the Catholic reading of that passage to my knowledge. In fact, its exactly the impression I got when reading it.
Thanks for your contribution, friend
Are you not the fellow who quoted stillsmallvoice post#60 in your post#63 ?
Well I am answering stillsmallvoice’s contention which you yourself quoted BY POINTING OUT THAT PROPHECIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT WERE FULFILLED IN JESUS’ LIFE.
Why? You think there will ever be a time in the future where another person will be born of a virgin, without any of this clonning business by doctors??? Furthermore, where the child born of a virgin will be a male, who in his entire life as a human being will commit no sin at all!!! You think this will ever happen again???
I know that the title of this topic is “Prophet Mohammed.” But what do you exoect us to do??? BE SILENT SO THAT PEOPLE WILL SAY THAT JESUS IS NOT REFERED TO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT???
The topic may have one title. But things that people bring into the discussion can be stimuli for other discussions. Take for example the very useful medicine penicillin. The researcher had a topic. He was searching for something. But what he was searching which he believed was important was actually of no importance. But in his untidyness, he accidentally saw this mold winning the battle against the other molds. That mold happened to be penicillin!!! AND IT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT DISCOVERY WHICH SAVED MANY MANY MANY LIVES!!!
If you let the poster of the main topic dictate everything that we will discuss, I think you will be preventing God from bringing in surprises.
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hawk
Guest
This perhaps the most ludicruous test.
There are many similar books and Allah challenges someone to produce a verse like on in the Quran here are some
islam-exposed.org/furqan/contents.html
Whilst I am sure muslims will do their best to dissect it.
The Quran will not hold up to the same kind of disection either, after all it is just a book.
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exoflare
Guest
I’ve heard the very same challenge before. The trick lies in it’s being extremely subjective. Who’s to know your exact standard of what’s “like” the Quran? The only way this challenge could indisputably be met with such a vague standard is to copy down the Quran word for word.
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r.gonzales
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the garbage in that book “furqan” doesn’t even come close to being like anything in the Quran. the arabic in it is extremely weak. i laughed at it the first time i read portions of it.
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