D
De_Maria
Guest
Is the Truth absolute?
- Status
R
Roy5
Guest
To DeMaria:
You ask: is the truth absolute?
You ask: is the truth absolute?
Code:
Perhaps it is, but can we be positive that we have the absolute truth? A a Christian, I believe as a Christian, but I well understand that Jews, Muslims and others have a different perspective. I doubt if God judges us by our theology or our church affiliation. Most of us inherit them anyway, so if we do belong to the one, true church, why are we to be congratulated?
What is annoying are Catholics and Protestants and Muslims, etc., who think that there is only one way, and it is their way. Great men and women with brilliant minds have embraced a wide variety of faiths. It strikes me as boasting, lack of Christian humility, for any of us to attack other faiths. The only 'religious' people I am ready to assail are those who claim that they have all the truth because they possess the only correct interpretation of scripture or they have a unique pipeline to God (e. g., Pope). Herein lies much of the problem in the world today and through history.
Trying to convert others is legitimate, but in an intelligent, reasonable and understanding fashion, and not our of arrogance or fanaticism. I believe that is the democratic and American way. Bigotry of any variety should have no place among us, and religious bigotry is no better than any other bigotry.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Correct.
It is.
Yes.
As a Protestant Christian, you believe in a manner inconsistent with Scripture and with Christian Tradition through the centuries. In essence, you are your own pope.
So do I. But different doesn’t mean correct.
Does God judge us by the doctrines we keep?
Ephesians 4
14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.
Romans 6
17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.
If we were born into that faith and we persevered in that faith, then God will reward our perseverence. And if we were called into that faith and we persevere into that faith into which we were called, God will reward our perseverence:
Matthew 10
22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
Please provide the Catholic doctrine which you interpret as only one way. As I know it, there is the “little way”, “the way of purgation”, the “way of the cross”, the way of “perpetual union” with God, the theology of St. John of the Cross, the theology of St. Catherine Siena, the theology of St. Theresa of Avila, and the imitation of Christ and many other ways and examples which Saints have explained and set throughout Christian history. They are all different techniques for achieving the same result, union with Christ or union with God.
Great men and women have made a geat variety of mistakes as well.
Cont’d
D
De_Maria
Guest
Cont’d
The problem throughout history is the lack of humility in people who refuse to obey the Word of God which says:
Hebrews 13
17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Protestants have been the biggest bigots in this country by the mere fact that they have been the greatest number in this country. The only Catholic province, Maryland, when this country was founded had the only Constitution which allowed freedom of religion.
That is the Catholic way.
However, you are a Protestant on a Catholic website, defending not Protestantism, but Islam. So, please show where Islam permits freedom of religion anywhere in the world? You say that our faiths resemble each other, show me where and how? Provide the Quranic teaching or the Islamic teaching which contradicts the actual reality of violence which is displayed everyday in Islam.
Sincerely,
De Maria
As you attack the Catholic faith below, by belittling our Pope?
Then you don’t believe the Bible. Because the Bible tells us that we have the fullness of Truth in the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and the Bible tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ and that we should hear the Church, he who does not hear the Church should be treated as the heathen (Matt 18:17).
The problem throughout history is the lack of humility in people who refuse to obey the Word of God which says:
Hebrews 13
17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Show me where I or any Catholic on this forum have deviated from this fashion?
Apparently, you call arrogance and fanaticism anything which disagrees with your world view.
The Scripture says “4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?” (Matt 7).
Protestants have been the biggest bigots in this country by the mere fact that they have been the greatest number in this country. The only Catholic province, Maryland, when this country was founded had the only Constitution which allowed freedom of religion.
That is the Catholic way.
However, you are a Protestant on a Catholic website, defending not Protestantism, but Islam. So, please show where Islam permits freedom of religion anywhere in the world? You say that our faiths resemble each other, show me where and how? Provide the Quranic teaching or the Islamic teaching which contradicts the actual reality of violence which is displayed everyday in Islam.
Sincerely,
De Maria
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Roy5,
Welcome to the Forum, you are basically correct I think. But, may be you have not following enough. Quite often that we hear accusations in this (perhaps these forum). I don’t know how far the forum modulators are following us. I did find several threads were closed due to outrageous postings by some. Some of us was labeled as “banned” or “account under review”. Sometimes I tried to cool down some of our brothers. Sometimes it was succesfull, sometimes it was no avail. But still, I agree with you. This is a Catholic forum, and this is where the Catholics are supposed to explain our belief regardless how hostile other people may be. The Catholics by definition should be the defender.
D
dolphinlove
Guest
[SIGN]De Maria for president![/SIGN]
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Muhammad is the universal truthful Prophet of GodAllahYHWH, so it is no strange that prophecies regarding his coming are found in Hindu scriptures as are also found in Jewish scriptures and Christian scriptures; that is quite satisfying and nothing but natural.
These however also prove and reassure that Hindu, Jewish and Christian Scriptures must be truthful in the origin; if not so in the present shape. This must be kept in mind and understood by our Muslim brethren.
Thanks
Muhammad is the universal truthful Prophet of GodAllahYHWH, so it is no strange that prophecies regarding his coming are found in Hindu scriptures as are also found in Jewish scriptures and Christian scriptures; that is quite satisfying and nothing but natural.
These however also prove and reassure that Hindu, Jewish and Christian Scriptures must be truthful in the origin; if not so in the present shape. This must be kept in mind and understood by our Muslim brethren.
Thanks
D
De_Maria
Guest
Muslims can’t even prove the validity of their own Scriptures much less the so called existence of Mohammedan prophecies in other religious Scriptures. If Muslims were to make their claims in a court of law, they would be thrown out.
There are two types of evidence which are inadmissible in a court of law. Anyone making a claim which is supported by this type of evidence is regularly thrown out of court. In other words, the court will not even consider their case.
These types of evidence are:
- Hearsay - Evidence given by anyone other than by the person giving the testimony.
If Mohamed were to appear in a court of law today here is what I imagine the interchange would sound like:
Mohammed sir, is it true that an angel appeared to you with a message for mankind?
Yes.
Sir, did anyone else see this angel?
No.
Did anyone else hear the angel?
No.
Can you bring the angel to court that we might hear the testimony for ourselves?
No.
Mr. Mohammed, do you expect us to believe such an extraordinary claim without any evidence? Let me try a different tact. In the Bible, Moses was given a staff with which he could produce many miracles in order to prove the Divine source of his message to Pharoah. Mr. Mohammed, do YOU have any such miraculous signs which prove that an angel gave you a message?
No.
Mr. Mohammed, there is not enough evidence here to warrant a case. Goodbye sir.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is how the case would end.
- Copies of maliciously destroyed originals.
CONT’D
D
De_Maria
Guest
CONT’D
Let me give you a bit of background in case you aren’t familiar with Islamic history:
It turns out that Mohammed never did what he claimed he was instructed by the angel to do. He dictated the Quran in brief pieces called suras to various scribes. And the Scribes dutifully memorized or wrote down what Mohammed said. In the end however, Mohammed never compiled the Quran into a single book. Although Muslims claim that he edited the Quran, it seems unlikely since the Quran was never even in one place during his life.
So, when Mohammed died, Muslims began to dispute over who had the true Quran. They compared their memorized versions to the written versions. No match. They compared their written versions to other written versions. No match. Along comes a fellow named Uthman, he orders another fellow to compile the Quran but that fellow tries and is unsuccessful. Uthman makes a decision, he decides to BURN the originals and impose his own version of the Quran on Muslims.
If you don’t believe me, here it is in their own words:
Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sha’m and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to Uthman, ‘O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur’an) as Jews and the Christians did before’. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, ‘Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you’. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa’id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, ‘In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue’. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479).
What does that mean for us? Well, if that were to happen in court, the copy which is being substituted for the destroyed original would be unacceptable as evidence. Why? Because the original was destroyed in order to prevent it being put into evidence. Therefore, the copy which is now being provided in its place would be unacceptable.
Here is what I imagine the case for Uthman would sound like.
Mr. Uthman, I understand you have provided us a copy of the Quran.
Yes.
Mr. Uthman, don’t you have the original so that we can compare it to the copy and see how accurate it is.
Yes, but I have already compared it and I provided you the best copy.
Mr. Uthman, the court would like to decide for itself whether you have provided the best copy.
It is no longer available, I had it burned.
You had it burned?! Didn’t you say this was the Word of God! Yet you had it burned? Pray, tell, why did you have it burned?
Because the copy I gave you is better than the original.
What!? Mr. Uthman, I suggest you leave this courtroom before I have you thrown in jail.
Ladies and Gentlemen, who in their right mind would destroy such an important document as the original revelation of God to mankind. Unless they didn’t believe it was the actual revelation of God.
And, so, the Quranic version known as Uthman’s rescension, the only version used by Muslims today, would be thrown out of any court as an inadmissible copy.
In summary, Mohamed’s case would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. Uthman’s case would be thrown out of court for destruction of original evidence and substituing an inadmissible copy.
Therefore Muslims can’t even prove the validity of their own Scriptures, much less the so called prophecies of Mohammed in other religious Scriptures. This remains another Islamic claim which has not been proven. Neither Mohammed could prove his own claim nor can Muslims today prove it. In fact, Muslims can’t even prove that the Quran is traced back to Mohammed but only to Uthman.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Let me give you a bit of background in case you aren’t familiar with Islamic history:
It turns out that Mohammed never did what he claimed he was instructed by the angel to do. He dictated the Quran in brief pieces called suras to various scribes. And the Scribes dutifully memorized or wrote down what Mohammed said. In the end however, Mohammed never compiled the Quran into a single book. Although Muslims claim that he edited the Quran, it seems unlikely since the Quran was never even in one place during his life.
So, when Mohammed died, Muslims began to dispute over who had the true Quran. They compared their memorized versions to the written versions. No match. They compared their written versions to other written versions. No match. Along comes a fellow named Uthman, he orders another fellow to compile the Quran but that fellow tries and is unsuccessful. Uthman makes a decision, he decides to BURN the originals and impose his own version of the Quran on Muslims.
If you don’t believe me, here it is in their own words:
Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sha’m and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to Uthman, ‘O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur’an) as Jews and the Christians did before’. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, ‘Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you’. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa’id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, ‘In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue’. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479).
What does that mean for us? Well, if that were to happen in court, the copy which is being substituted for the destroyed original would be unacceptable as evidence. Why? Because the original was destroyed in order to prevent it being put into evidence. Therefore, the copy which is now being provided in its place would be unacceptable.
Here is what I imagine the case for Uthman would sound like.
Mr. Uthman, I understand you have provided us a copy of the Quran.
Yes.
Mr. Uthman, don’t you have the original so that we can compare it to the copy and see how accurate it is.
Yes, but I have already compared it and I provided you the best copy.
Mr. Uthman, the court would like to decide for itself whether you have provided the best copy.
It is no longer available, I had it burned.
You had it burned?! Didn’t you say this was the Word of God! Yet you had it burned? Pray, tell, why did you have it burned?
Because the copy I gave you is better than the original.
What!? Mr. Uthman, I suggest you leave this courtroom before I have you thrown in jail.
Ladies and Gentlemen, who in their right mind would destroy such an important document as the original revelation of God to mankind. Unless they didn’t believe it was the actual revelation of God.
And, so, the Quranic version known as Uthman’s rescension, the only version used by Muslims today, would be thrown out of any court as an inadmissible copy.
In summary, Mohamed’s case would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. Uthman’s case would be thrown out of court for destruction of original evidence and substituing an inadmissible copy.
Therefore Muslims can’t even prove the validity of their own Scriptures, much less the so called prophecies of Mohammed in other religious Scriptures. This remains another Islamic claim which has not been proven. Neither Mohammed could prove his own claim nor can Muslims today prove it. In fact, Muslims can’t even prove that the Quran is traced back to Mohammed but only to Uthman.
Sincerely,
De Maria
B
Booklover
Guest
B
Booklover
Guest
H
hamba2han
Guest
The following comes from this webpage:
Qur’an 35:24
Verily We have sent thee (Muhammad) in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner:
And there never was a people without a warner having lived among them (in the past).
Qur’an 16:36
For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) “Serve Allah and eshew Evil”:
Of the people were some whom Allah guided and some on whom Error became inevitably (established).
So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).
Qur’an 2:256
There is no compulsion in religion.
The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.
And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break.
Allah is Hearer, Knower.
================================================
The Epistle of Sasan I in Dasatir contains the prophecy about Prophet Muhammad. Sasan I was a reformer of the Zoroastrian religion. It is believed that this Epistle is a part of the teachings of Prophet Zoroaster, to which Sasan I added his explanatory notes. Some scholars have suggested that the word ‘Dasatir’ means ten (das) parts (tir) while others contend that this word is derived from Dasatur, meaning religious law. The Zoroastrians are also known as ‘Magians’ and ‘Fire Worshipers.’
The Epistle of Sasan I describes future events at a time when Zoroastrians will have forsaken their religious practices. The English translation of the Epistle of Sasan I is presented below.
“When the Persians will do such deeds, a man from among the Arabs will be born whose followers shall overthrow and dissolve the kingdom and religion of the Persians.
And the arrogant people (Persians) will be subjugated.
Instead of the temple of fire and the house of idols they will see the House of Abraham without any idols as their Qibla.
“And they (Muslims) will be a mercy to the worlds.
And they will capture the places of temples of fire, Madain (Ctesiphon), nearby lands, Tus and Balkh, and other eminent and sacred places (of Zoroastrians).
And their leader (Prophet Muhammad) will be an eloquent man whose words and message will be clear and far-reaching.”
The word by word translation of the Epistle of Sasan I is given below. The text of this Epistle is taken from Dasatir published by Mulla Pheroze during the reign of Shah Nasiruddeen Kachar of Persia. Mulla Pheroze lived in Bombay (India) and he was an eminent scholar of Pahlavi, Zend, Persian, and Arabic languages. He consulted with several famous Zoroastrians priests to authenticate his translation. The original text is in Pahlavi.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
There are many prophecies in Dasatir and in Zend Avesta, the other sacred book of the Zoroastrians. The word ‘Astvat-ereta’ in the prophecies means ‘the praised one’ which is Muhammad in Arabic. Some prophecies are found in Farvardin Yasht XIII:17 and XXVIII:129, Zamyad Yasht: 95, and Atash Nyayish: 9.
Qur’an 35:24
Verily We have sent thee (Muhammad) in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner:
And there never was a people without a warner having lived among them (in the past).
Qur’an 16:36
For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) “Serve Allah and eshew Evil”:
Of the people were some whom Allah guided and some on whom Error became inevitably (established).
So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).
Qur’an 2:256
There is no compulsion in religion.
The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.
And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break.
Allah is Hearer, Knower.
================================================
The Epistle of Sasan I in Dasatir contains the prophecy about Prophet Muhammad. Sasan I was a reformer of the Zoroastrian religion. It is believed that this Epistle is a part of the teachings of Prophet Zoroaster, to which Sasan I added his explanatory notes. Some scholars have suggested that the word ‘Dasatir’ means ten (das) parts (tir) while others contend that this word is derived from Dasatur, meaning religious law. The Zoroastrians are also known as ‘Magians’ and ‘Fire Worshipers.’
The Epistle of Sasan I describes future events at a time when Zoroastrians will have forsaken their religious practices. The English translation of the Epistle of Sasan I is presented below.
“When the Persians will do such deeds, a man from among the Arabs will be born whose followers shall overthrow and dissolve the kingdom and religion of the Persians.
And the arrogant people (Persians) will be subjugated.
Instead of the temple of fire and the house of idols they will see the House of Abraham without any idols as their Qibla.
“And they (Muslims) will be a mercy to the worlds.
And they will capture the places of temples of fire, Madain (Ctesiphon), nearby lands, Tus and Balkh, and other eminent and sacred places (of Zoroastrians).
And their leader (Prophet Muhammad) will be an eloquent man whose words and message will be clear and far-reaching.”
The word by word translation of the Epistle of Sasan I is given below. The text of this Epistle is taken from Dasatir published by Mulla Pheroze during the reign of Shah Nasiruddeen Kachar of Persia. Mulla Pheroze lived in Bombay (India) and he was an eminent scholar of Pahlavi, Zend, Persian, and Arabic languages. He consulted with several famous Zoroastrians priests to authenticate his translation. The original text is in Pahlavi.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
There are many prophecies in Dasatir and in Zend Avesta, the other sacred book of the Zoroastrians. The word ‘Astvat-ereta’ in the prophecies means ‘the praised one’ which is Muhammad in Arabic. Some prophecies are found in Farvardin Yasht XIII:17 and XXVIII:129, Zamyad Yasht: 95, and Atash Nyayish: 9.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Paar:
Sorry for joining the conversation late. I’m interested in hearing where in the Hebrew scriptures the prophet Muhammad is mentioned.
R
ralphinal
Guest
So, in Islam, can we accept any sacred writings from any faith as being Devinely inspired? Does this mean that in Islam, all faiths are ways to salvation?
H
hamba2han
Guest
It is best that the Qur’an answer your question:
003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
christianity & judaism is not accepted either?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
H
hamba2han
Guest
The teachings of the previous Prophets (peace be upon them all) throughout the history of humankind were specific and applicable only to the nations and people that they were sent to.christianity & judaism is not accepted either?
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, is the ‘Seal of the Prophets’ and he was sent for all of humankind with the Final Revelation that will last till the end of the world.
Therefore, those who do desire to be with their Lord in Paradise and they have indeed heard the Message of Islam would no longer have the option of rejecting it .
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
It might help to read the passage you quoted from the Qu’ran in context. Here is the verse immediately proceeding the one you quoted (3:84):
"Say: ‘We believe in God and what is revealed to us; in that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, to Isaac and Jacob and the [Jewish] tribes; and in that which their Lord gave Moses and Jesus and the prophets. We discriminate against none of them. To Him we have surrendered ourselves.’ "
V
Valke2
Guest
If you are reading the Hebrew scriptures, a/k/a Tanakh, and you come across the word “Muhammad”, you’ve gone to far.Paar:
Sorry for joining the conversation late. I’m interested in hearing where in the Hebrew scriptures the prophet Muhammad is mentioned.
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