Prophet Muhhameds death- How is it in Koran?

[Damascus]

If Muhhamed was the one to give the words to the Koran (through Allmighty Allah)
How he is able to talk about things that happened after he was dead???

Who added that stuff? His child wife? I thought Muhhamed did the “miricle Koran” ??? He must have had a co-writer… His last wife or someone else?

 

[inJESUS]

where did he talk about things that happened after his death in Quran?

 

[FightingFat]

If Muhhamed was the one to give the words to the Koran (through Allmighty Allah)
How he is able to talk about things that happened after he was dead???

Who added that stuff? His child wife? I thought Muhhamed did the “miricle Koran” ??? He must have had a co-writer… His last wife or someone else?

Nope that info comes from the *Hadiths, *which are sayings of the Prophet. Islam did not have a spiritual elite- a priesthood due to the fact a substantial part of the Quran was accessable to the multitudes, it was written in the vernacular (Quran means literally ‘Discourse in Arabic’) whereas the Bible was written in Hebrew and Koine Greek, until the Latin Vulgate was translated by Jerome on the orders of Pope Damasus I in 382.

Nevertheless, the need for such a class is as apparent today as it was then. Many passages are obscure and cannot be understood without reference to the substantial body of exegetical literature, derived from the oral Traditions (HADITH= Tradition). These were selected and written down around the third century of Islam. The Hadiths are one of the four roots of Islamic law, largely because some statements within the Quran are contradictory (or seem that way at least, obviously yer Muslim would say different).
For example- Sura 16:67 clearly allows the drinking of wine:

And [we grant you nourishment] from the fruit of date-palms and vines: from it you derive intoxicants as well as wholesome sustenance…

However, we are all aware this is not how Muslim believe, and indeed that sura is evidently contradicted by 2:219:

They will ask about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: ‘In both are great evil and some used for men. But the sin in them is greater than their usefullness…’

An even stronger prohibition occurs in 5:90-1. Anyway, you get the picture. My opinion is they basically made a load of stuff up- cool stories about the Prophet to make the Quran say what they wanted.

 

[inJESUS]

regarding the wine drinking, Muslims do not consider it a contradiction btw…they believe that Allah prohibited it in many steps (3 or 4). In other words, Allah did not want to abolish it abruptly cuz people used to drink, so he took it step by step, saying it is good, then good and bad, then it’s bad is more than it’s good, then nothing. If not mistaken, the complete prohibition came after Muslims lost a war because the fighters were drunk.

 

[Eden]

An interesting article on the origin of the Quran:

islamreview.com/articles/inventionofislam.shtml

Since Muhammad and his several hundred companions were completely illiterate (could not read or write) and Muhammad had a poor memory; thus, his companions memorized for him the Quranic verses they plagiarized/concocted. But in the battle of Yamamah, almost all his companions were killed and the original Quranic verses were lost forever and was never compiled in writing before Muhammad himself was killed by food poisoning in 632 A.D. by a Jewish slave, who said, “If you are a true Apostle, Allah would have saved you”. Caliph Abu Bakr (632-634A.D.) then entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit to compile the Quran, from memories of Muhammad’s illiterate wives, concubines, slaves, and a few contacts; who claimed to have heard Muhammad and his companions utter various verses. Zayed managed to gather an estimated 7,900 verses. But this first compilation of the Quran, with numerous contradictions, ridicule, confusions, and errors, created a lot of trouble and huge problems arose over the years. Under the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 A.D.), he was compelled to withdraw all the distributed, handwritten copies of the Qurans and burnt them. Zayed was again ordered for the second time, to recompile and re-edit the Quran more sensibly and convincingly from his original Quran, kept with Hafsa (Muhammad’s widow). Zayed did the best he could in re-editing the Quran and more than 2,000 contradictory, confusing, erroneous and illogical verses were abrogated (cancelled), some were replaced, and others added/borrowed to make sense of the cancellations/replacements. This re-edited Quran in Sura 16:101-103 says Arabs accused a Christian slave of teaching Muhammad and was persecuted, and 25:4-5 confirms accusations of borrowing stories from Folktales, and Fables by the then Arabs. Abu Al-Aswad Al Doaly put dots as syntactical marks, during the time of Mu’awiya Ibn Abi Sufian (661-680 A.D). The letters were marked with different dotting by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy ibn Ya’amor, during the time of Abd Al-Malek Ibn Marawan (685-705 A.D). A complete system of diacritical marks, (damma, fataha, kasra,), were newly created by Al Khaleel Ibn Ahmad Al Faraheedy (d. 786 A.D). Now the Quran stands at only 6,241 verses today from its original 7,900. But given the circumstances prevailing in those days and the fact that compiling from various uneducated peoples’ memories, etc; this concocted manmade Quran, still have a lot of contradictions, confusions, absurdities, illogicalities, ridicule, errors, unscientific theories, etc. (For details, see ‘A dialogue between a Christian and a Muslim about the Quran’ and ‘A balanced understanding of Islam’ in this website). So a lot of people did have a hand in inventing the Quran. Thus, the bulk of the verses of today’s Quran, are actually from Muhammad’s wives, concubines, temporary wives, slaves and was edited by Zayed Ibn Thabit (it has nothing to do with God).

 

[Eden]

It is interesting, too, that Muslims claim that the Quran (intact, uncorrupted and “as it was revealed”) is a miracle, but in sura 17:59 Allah himself confirms, he sent no miracles. So who is wrong – Allah or the Muslims?

 

[inJESUS]

It is interesting, too, that Muslims claim that the Quran (intact, uncorrupted and “as it was revealed”) is a miracle, but in sura 17:59 Allah himself confirms, he sent no miracles. So who is wrong – Allah or the Muslims?

no in fact the Quran does say that is Muhammad’s only “miracle”.I’ll try to find the reference.

 

[inJESUS]

You were right Eden,the Quran does not say that it is Muhammad’s miracle…but it says:

“Say: If the whole of mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they assisted each other.” [Al-Israa’ (17): 88]

 

[Eden]

You were right Eden,the Quran does not say that it is Muhammad’s miracle…but it says:

“Say: If the whole of mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they assisted each other.” [Al-Israa’ (17): 88]

That quote doesn’t even mention anything about Muhammed, does it? Where is the irrefutable evidence that Muhammed even wrote the Quran?

 

[inJESUS]

That quote doesn’t even mention anything about Muhammed, does it?

nop .

but think of it : can God give such a subjective challenge? nop it is Muhammad’s challenge cuz it’s a very “human-like” kind of challenge my replies are better than yours…if you dont believe this, try to write better and i am the judge ! can God think in such human terms? the challenge SMELLS of humanity

Where is the irrefutable evidence that Muhammed even wrote the Quran?

 

[PaulDupre]

That quote doesn’t even mention anything about Muhammed, does it? Where is the irrefutable evidence that Muhammed even wrote the Quran?

Muhammed did not write the Quran. He reported his revelations verbally. After Muhammed died, his followers eventually wrote down the things he had been heard to say.

The Muslims take great delight in declaring that Muhammed was illiterate, and so the Quran is miraculous. But what this really means is that men who followed Muhammed wrote the Quran to promote an agenda that they developed while gaining power in Muhammed’s shadow.

Paul

 

[Eden]

Muhammed did not write the Quran. He reported his revelations verbally. After Muhammed died, his followers eventually wrote down the things he had been heard to say.

The Muslims take great delight in declaring that Muhammed was illiterate, and so the Quran is miraculous. But what this really means is that men who followed Muhammed wrote the Quran to promote an agenda that they developed while gaining power in Muhammed’s shadow.

Paul

Thanks. I should have said, where is the proof from Muslims that the Quran is a collection of revelations given to Muhammed? It is more likely almost entirely the work of his wives and the Caliphate who edited it since all of Muhammed’s men who first received the revelations from him were killed in battle and Muhammed himself died from poisoning before anyone wrote anything down.

 

[Damascus]

Thanks. I should have said, where is the proof from Muslims that the Quran is a collection of revelations given to Muhammed? It is more likely almost entirely the work of his wives and the Caliphate who edited it since all of Muhammed’s men who first received the revelations from him were killed in battle and Muhammed himself died from poisoning before anyone wrote anything down.

I agree! And is it true or an old wives tale that a goat entered the widows home and ate some of the inspired words? I am not sure how true that is but it is supposedly written somewhere-

I would think IN Jesus would know, I do not.

 

[inJESUS]

Thanks. I should have said, where is the proof from Muslims that the Quran is a collection of revelations given to Muhammed? It is more likely almost entirely the work of his wives and the Caliphate who edited it since all of Muhammed’s men who first received the revelations from him were killed in battle and Muhammed himself died from poisoning before anyone wrote anything down.

as far as i remember, during the Quranic cimpilation, the essential part was Isnad. In other words, while compiling it, the scribes must gather the authentic sayings of Muhammad memorized by many witnesses. Of course things were not that easy. As you said and as ahadith show, many verses were totally lost, other verses were deleted, added, ecc. Among Muslim compilators there was no agreement as one of Muhammad’s favourite scribes rejected Zaid’s copy and it is Zaid’s copy that Uthman prefered. And yes some ahadith say a goat ate some verses ecc…

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Just to clarify the topic under discussion:

Muhammad’s death is mentioned in the Quran. Unfortunately the verse proves Allah was a figment of Muhammad’s imagination, and thus Muhammad was a liar and a false prophet and Islam is a false religion. Sorry the truth hurts, Muslims, but here is the evidence:

al-Imran 003:144
‏3:144 ومامحمد الا رسول قد خلت من قبله الرسل افئن مات او قتل انقلبتم على اعقابكم ومن ينقلب على عقبيه فلن يضر الله شيئا وسيجزي الله الشاكرين
Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu afa-in mata aw qutila inqalabtum AAala aAAqabikum waman yanqalib AAala AAaqibayhi falan yadurra Allaha shay-an wasayajzee Allahu alshshakireena

Literal: And Mohammad is not except a messenger, had passed/expired from before him the messengers, so if he died, or (he was) killed, you turned/returned on your heels , and whom turns/returns, on his two heels, so he will never/not harm God, a thing, and God will reward the thankful/grateful.

Shakir: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

The Arabic word “mata” means ‘dies’ implying a natural death, while the Arabic word “qutila” means ‘he is/was killed’.

The verse is traditionally believed to have been revealed in the lead up to the Battle of Uhud when Muhammad was addressing his troops on the eve of battle - hence the verse exhorting them to not disbelieve if Muhammad should die (i.e. mata) or be killed (i.e. qutila).

islamicity.com/mosque/quran/maududi/mau3.html

But poor Muhammad slipped up because it can be seen from 3:144 that Allah did not know if Muhammad would die from natural causes or would be killed, and also did not know the timing of his death. For if Allah knew Muhammad would survive Uhud, why bother issuing such a verse?

Chau,
Rodrigo.

 

[inJESUS]

well ONE thing is sure in this verse Rodrigo : this verse confirms that ALL messengers before Muhamad died. Jesus was a messenger as per Muhammad; therefore Jesus died according to Allah. Yet Jesus was elevated to Allah on the crucifixion day. Here is the question: when did Jesus die then ?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Unlike some other ‘messengers’ who carried consistent messages from beginning to end, Muhammad made revelations that can only seem to unbiased observers to be self-serving, contradictory and situational.

However, this verse is clear evidence of Allah’s lack of omniscience - since Allah did not foresee the outcome of the Battle of Uhud.

Chau,
Rodrigo de Bivar

 

[inJESUS]

Unlike some other ‘messengers’ who carried consistent messages from beginning to end, Muhammad made revelations that can only seem to unbiased observers to be self-serving, contradictory and situational.

that’s why he claimed that God changes his mind and abrogates verses…this abrogation stuff is beyond me…and people at muhammads time wondered as well about these changes…they knew smth is wrong so Allah needed to defend his position

However, this verse is clear evidence of Allah’s lack of omniscience - since Allah did not foresee the outcome of the Battle of Uhud.

 

[Sufi]

If Muhhamed was the one to give the words to the Koran (through Allmighty Allah)
How he is able to talk about things that happened after he was dead???

Who added that stuff? His child wife? I thought Muhhamed did the “miricle Koran” ??? He must have had a co-writer… His last wife or someone else?

What verse are you referring to?