Prophetic Nature of Humanae Vitae & Promiscuity

[Paladin_V]

"The Pope Paul VI Institute reports a perfect-use effectiveness rate of 99.5% in the first year.[5] In clinical studies of the CrMS conducted at the Pope Paul IV Institute, researchers excluded most pregnancies from the typical-use rate calculation, on the grounds that they believed the affected couples had used the method to deliberately attempt pregnancy.[6] The Institute reports a typical-use effectiveness of 96.8% in the first year** **(as opposed to the claim that, “They show it is 99% effective when used correctly,” as Paladin V asserts.) ****.[5] Most studies of similar systems do not exclude such pregnancies from the typical-use failure rate."[7][8]

I asserted that correct use is 99% effective. As your comments state, it is 99.5% effective when used perfectly (that is to say, correctly). The 96.8% effectiveness is for typical use (that is to say, the “in-practice” effectiveness), and I stated that the “in-practice” effectiveness was somewhat less.

In any case 96.8% is pretty darn good and is a better than a condom.

 

[captbackfire]

I asserted that correct use is 99% effective. As your comments state, it is 99.5% effective when used perfectly (that is to say, correctly). The 96.8% effectiveness is for typical use (that is to say, the “in-practice” effectiveness), and I stated that the “in-practice” effectiveness was somewhat less.

In any case 96.8% is pretty darn good and is a better than a condom.

**Let’s shop and compare:

“The breakage rate for condoms is two out of 100. Of every 100 couples who use condoms incorrectly and inconsistently, 15 will experience a pregnancy during the first year of use. Of every 100 couples who use condoms correctly and consistently, only two will experience a pregnancy.”** ~ MayoClinic.com ~ “Tools for Healthier Lives”

Copper T IUD and Mirena IUS: more than 99% effective. (CDC)

The Pill, the MiniPill, the Patch: 92-99% effective. (CDC)

The Ring: 92-99% effective. (CDC)

Progestin injections: 97-99% effective. (CDC)

Implant: 99% effective. (CDC)

Male condoms are 85–98% effective at preventing pregnancy. Female condoms are 79–95% effective at preventing pregnancy when used consistently and correctly, and may also help prevent STDs. The diaphragm is 84–94% effective at preventing pregnancy. Spermicides alone are about 71–82% effective at preventing pregnancy. Natural Family Planning and Fertility Awareness methods: 75–99% effective at preventing pregnancy. (CDC)

capt

 

[Paladin_V]

Indeed, thank you for showing the statistics I was referring to and their sources. I wasn’t able to look up the statistics for condom effectiveness at work. As your statistics show, condoms used correctly are 98% effective, compared to NFP used correctly, which is 99.5% effective. Used incorrectly, condoms show an 85% effectiveness while NFP shows a 96.8% effectiveness.

But really, this is sort of an aside. It is important that NFP is effective but the debate about its effectiveness was started because of claims that it is very ineffective when in fact it has been shown to be very effective. It seems we are in agreement on this, based on the statistics we’ve both shown.

The point is that however effective artificial contraception is, it always has been and always will be immoral. The Church has maintained this since its inception and scripture attests to this back into the old testament. It’s effectiveness is irrelevant. Many hormonal contraceptions are abortifacient and are tantamount to murder, there is increasing evidence of the negative effects contraception has on the woman and on the marital relationship, and it frustrates God’s plan for human sexuality.

If a person disagrees with the 2000 year old teachings of the Christ’s Church, many of the most brilliant people in history, and Christ himself, well, okay. No one, however, should expect Christ’s followers to support or promote artificial contraception in any form, being a clear contradiction of what we know to be truth.

 

[captbackfire]

Indeed, thank you for showing the statistics I was referring to and their sources. I wasn’t able to look up the statistics for condom effectiveness at work. As your statistics show, condoms used correctly are 98% effective, compared to NFP used correctly, which is 99.5% effective. Used incorrectly, condoms show an 85% effectiveness while NFP shows a 96.8% effectiveness.

But really, this is sort of an aside. It is important that NFP is effective but the debate about its effectiveness was started because of claims that it is very ineffective when in fact it has been shown to be very effective. It seems we are in agreement on this, based on the statistics we’ve both shown. ** I’m sorry, we are not in agreement on this point; my argument is that no method is practiced perfectly and, therefore, every method has a factor of unreliability attached to it which makes the failure rate for the woman experiencing an unplanned pregnancy 100%.**

The point is that however effective artificial contraception is, it always has been and always will be immoral. The Church has maintained this since its inception and scripture attests to this back into the old testament. It’s effectiveness is irrelevant. Many hormonal contraceptions are abortifacient and are tantamount to murder, there is increasing evidence of the negative effects contraception has on the woman and on the marital relationship, and it frustrates God’s plan for human sexuality. I view NFP as I view ABC: each “frustrates God’s plan for human sexuality” in that each method is designed and practiced to prevent conception. The fact that no chemicals, barriers or other artifice is employed with NFP does not excuse it from the criticism foisted upon ABC. The means to the end are different, but the end - and the intent - are the same.

If a person disagrees with the 2000 year old teachings of the Christ’s Church, many of the most brilliant people in history, and Christ himself, well, okay. No one, however, should expect Christ’s followers to support or promote artificial contraception in any form, being a clear contradiction of what we know to be truth. **No one expects Christ’s followers to support or promote artificial contraception, nor should any of Christ’s followers presume to be endowed with God’s authority to judge those who use artificial contraception.

capt**

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[Paladin_V]

The means to the end are different, but the end - and the intent - are the same.

Yes! Well… almost yes!

The end of **both **NFP and of ABC is the spacing of births. We are in agreement here. The overall intent, the spacing of births, is the same. Again, we are in perfect agreement here. I think we both agree that with NFP and ABC there is an overall attempt to mitigate the possibility of pregnancy during certain times in the marriage.

I contend, however, that the intent during intercourse is different. This is why the NFP couple and the ABC couple employ different means. The means, as you said, are different.

While the NFP couple is having intercourse, there is no intent to interfere in the act, and they don’t. They are simply having intercourse with nothing done to mitigate current fertility or prevent transmission of sperm. While the ABC couple is having intercourse, there is intent to interfere in the act, and they do. They are simply having intercourse with something done to mitigate current fertility or prevent transmission of sperm.

At this point, I’m not making claims about morality, I am pointing out that there is a difference in intent and means during sex for the NFP couple and the ABC couple. The NFP couple is intending to have sex without using anything to mitigate current fertility while the ABC couple is intending to mitigate current fertility.

Now two questions arise:

1. Is it okay to mitigate the possibility of pregnancy at certain times in the marital relationship?
2. Is it okay to mitigate current fertility during intercourse?

I view NFP as I view ABC: each “frustrates God’s plan for human sexuality” in that each method is designed and practiced to prevent conception.

Hopefully we can agree that frustration of God’s plans for human sexuality is wrong… it appears you agree. If we don’t, then we need to have another debate but for the sake of understanding where Catholics come from on this, lets assume that it is wrong and immoral to frustrate God’s plans for human sexuality.

What is God’s plan for sexuality? Again, we could debate this, but Catholics say two things… complete self-giving love that unites man and wife (the unitive part) and openness to life (the procreative part).

Lets treat question two first. Is it okay to mitigate current fertility during intercourse? Does mitigation of fertility frustrate either of the two plans for sexuality? Clearly there is not a full gift of self if one’s current fertility is withheld from the other (there is no union). Also, since current fertility is withheld, there is an intent to **remove **the procreative nature of sex. Notice that I didn’t refer to what the couple “wants.” Both the NFP and ABC couple don’t “want” to get pregnant. What matters is that during sex is that there is no **intent **to interfere.

The first question. Is it okay to mitigate the possibility of pregnancy during marriage (is it okay to space births)? Does that frustrate God’s plan for sex? Well, certainly we can’t continuously mitigate the possibility of pregnancy for the duration of the marriage; this frustrates both the procreative and unitive parts and hence is immoral. Certainly, however, we aren’t expected to continuously get pregnant. To do so would be a serious lack of the virtue of prudence and would be immoral as well. We could never take care of all the children we had if we were expected to be continuously giving birth. Nor would that be healthy for the woman. We might almost say it is one’s duty to space births.

The Church asks us to discern God’s will for the number of children we have using prudence, reason, and charity.

Since practicing NFP is the only means to the end of prudently spacing births that preserves both of God’s plans for sexuality, it is the only moral option available.

 

[captbackfire]

**Paladin V,

Well said, and I thank you for taking the time to delve into the details on the subject. I am not so certain about “God’s plan for human sexuality”, however; this is more my character defect than your willingness to endorse the notion of a “unitive” factor in marriage.

I simply do not believe in romantic love, spiritual unity with another human being, creative interdependence, or whatever you want to call it. I believe women, for the most part, marry for love, family and someone who will take care of them; men marry for sex, stability, and someone who will take care of them. I firmly believe that so much manipulation and lying and deceit occur on a subtle level between husband and wife that “unity” is an illusion. To forgive and forget is dangerous and naive. To build one’s life on a dream is folly.

I do not understand God’s plan for sexuality, nor do I care to. The time to investigate it is long past for me. I will never enter into another relationship with any man; I already have a full-time job. Add to that the personal observation that relationships are tedious and faulty, the results fruitless. There are many women out here who feel as I do. We tried it on and it didn’t fit. I may have another 12 minutes here on earth or another 30 years; I fully intend to spend the remainder of my days here without the company of a man.

So do I feel that frustration of God’s plan for sexuality is “wrong”? I feel that the plan itself is half-baked and exclusive. It’s just another facet of human life that not all human beings will do well or enjoy or have the opportunity to experience. How many other things has God designed this way?

capt**

 

[Paladin_V]

**Paladin V,

Well said, and I thank you for taking the time to delve into the details on the subject. I am not so certain about “God’s plan for human sexuality”, however; this is more my character defect than your willingness to endorse the notion of a “unitive” factor in marriage.

I simply do not believe in romantic love, spiritual unity with another human being, creative interdependence, or whatever you want to call it. I believe women, for the most part, marry for love, family and someone who will take care of them; men marry for sex, stability, and someone who will take care of them. I firmly believe that so much manipulation and lying and deceit occur on a subtle level between husband and wife that “unity” is an illusion. To forgive and forget is dangerous and naive. To build one’s life on a dream is folly.

I do not understand God’s plan for sexuality, nor do I care to. The time to investigate it is long past for me. I will never enter into another relationship with any man; I already have a full-time job. Add to that the personal observation that relationships are tedious and faulty, the results fruitless. There are many women out here who feel as I do. We tried it on and it didn’t fit. I may have another 12 minutes here on earth or another 30 years; I fully intend to spend the remainder of my days here without the company of a man.

So do I feel that frustration of God’s plan for sexuality is “wrong”? I feel that the plan itself is half-baked and exclusive. It’s just another facet of human life that not all human beings will do well or enjoy or have the opportunity to experience. How many other things has God designed this way?

capt**

Capt,

Thank you for your response and thank you for sharing with me your thoughts on marriage. This thread has been very helpful for me in terms of elucidating NFP and ABC.

I am sorry to hear about your beliefs on marriage and relationships. I think you are very right in that many relationships and perhaps the majority of relationships are filled with deceit and lack of unity, hence the high divorce rates. I believe that this is not God’s design but a result of our broken human nature.

I also believe that with God’s help (and only with God’s help) marriage does work and is blessed, fruitful, and unitive. It’s not easy, but there certainly are many examples of good solid marriages in the world. Please don’t give up hope for them.

It sounds as if you’ve experience some serious betrayal and hurts. I will add you to my rosary that you may find healing and peace.

God bless +

 

[captbackfire]

**Thank you.

capt**