Prophets after Jesus

[eddie_too]

is a muslim speaking out of both sides of his mouth when he asserts: 1) that Jesus is a great prophet of almighty God; and, 2) Jesus and His holy Mother Mary perpetrated the greatest hoax of all time on mankind?

i think it is absurd to think you can have it both ways.

if the crucifixion was a hoax that did not result in Jesus’ death, everyone associated with Jesus knew it was a hoax and helped Him perpetrate it. all of the gospels and epistles that cite Jesus bodily Resurrection form the dead are deliberate lies, fabrications intended primarily, if not solely, to deceive.

why would muslims who believe that revere Jesus or His Mother?

it is sheer and utter nonsense to believe as the muslims try to teach about Jesus and His death and resurrection.

 

[Servant19]

For what it’s worth, I think Muslims have interpreted their own Holy Book, especially the verses related to this matter of contention, incorrectly.

The Quran, again, is a book related to spiritual TRUTHS, not historical facts.

There are verses in the Quran which clearly say that Muslim martyrs are not killed.

This clearly points to life and death in the Quran as a SPIRITUAL life and death, not physical.

The Divine Jesus never died.

The Muslim martyrs likewise, never died.

Muslims need to look at this perspective as it immediately fosters greater harmony between two beautiful religions…


.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

is a muslim speaking out of both sides of his mouth when he asserts: 1) that Jesus is a great prophet of almighty God; and, 2) Jesus and His holy Mother Mary perpetrated the greatest hoax of all time on mankind?

i think it is absurd to think you can have it both ways.

if the crucifixion was a hoax that did not result in Jesus’ death, everyone associated with Jesus knew it was a hoax and helped Him perpetrate it. all of the gospels and epistles that cite Jesus bodily Resurrection form the dead are deliberate lies, fabrications intended primarily, if not solely, to deceive.

why would muslims who believe that revere Jesus or His Mother?

it is sheer and utter nonsense to believe as the muslims try to teach about Jesus and His death and resurrection.

Exactly!!

 

[Dialogues]

Peace.

Blood “gushing” due to a “beating heart,” both points that you are depending on heavily for your assumptions, would make blood come out in “spurts.” Basic anatomy + your own statements = just what I said, and just what you deny.

Blood rushing out indicates that there is pressure in the circulatory system. It doesn’t need to come out in spurts to indicate a pumping heart. Hardly a trickle would ooze out of a corpse, because there is no pressure in the circulatory system. The flowing out of blood is a sure sign of life. Hence Origen felt compelled to explain it away as a ‘miracle’, instead of concluding the obvious, that Jesus was still alive at the time. He too allowed his preconceived notions to blind his eyes to the obvious, and he isn’t the only one.

Citation, please? What historian says this is not a Roman practice?

As the Bible makes no mention of it, the onus of proof is on you to establish that it was standard roman practice that would be expected to have been done.

Yes, but it is well known that various verses from the Quran conflict with each other, which brings up the principle of abrogation.

I don’t believe in the notion of abrogation, nor do a lot of other Muslims. There is no conflict between Qur’anic verses.

Ahh, so now He was also poisioned? And it took effect that rapidly?

If you believe he died at that point, then poisoning is the only logical conclusion. However, the fact that he was later seen to be alive by his friends, but not by his foes, shows that he had survived the cross and was hiding from the romans and jews lest he be caught again and killed for sure this time. Thus, the conclusion I make is that it was not a poison, but a sedative such as opium which caused him to lower his head immediately after the drink.

I though that Muslims claimed to believe the Gospels.

I believe that Jesus was given the Gospel, i.e. a direct revelation from God. The Gospels in the NT do contain elements of revelations which Jesus received on the basis of which he gave wisdom and made some prophecies, but they were composed by different authors.

Do you think that when Jesus “gave up his spirit” that part was a lie?

That part was an incorrect assumption made on the basis of his bowing his head. It could have meant death had it been poison that was mixed in with his drink.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Peace.

as for this phrase “blood gushing forth”, Jesus died on the Cross. the Romans thought He was already dead before being taken down from the Cross.

Pilate expressed surprise at being told he was already dead after roughly 3 hours on the cross, whereas he knew crucifixion took an average of about 3 days, sometimes even lasting up to about a week or so.

to ensure that He was dead, they pierced His side with a lance and blood and water issued, gushed, poured, use whatever verb you like,

It was to confirm he wasn’t feigning death, for he would have moved if he was still conscious. The roman soldiers appear not to have been aware of the drugged drink, or they would have known he had only fainted.

but it is safe to conclude that if Jesus heart was still beating when His side was pierced, it was not beating after it was pierced and the blood gushed forth.

There are not sufficient grounds to reach such a conclusion.

any reports of this wound being bound by those who loved Him? are we really expected to believe the muslim account and conclude that those who loved His simply left Him to bleed to death? seriously, that is mohammed’s teaching?

Some secret friends of Jesus are said to have taken care of him:

John 19:38 After this Joseph of Arimathe′a, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicode′mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight. 40 They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.

Nicodemus had previously met Pilate by night to discuss some plans to save Jesus in secret, out of fear of the Jews. Aloes and myrrh were well-known healing salves. They were used to treat the wounds of Jesus to prevent further bleeding and infection and to heal them. 100 lb is quite a lot! They knew he was alive and his wounds needed healing.

These plants, particularly aloe plants, are considered medicinal and applied to wounds. It was used extensively in many ancient cultures is used even today to soothe open wounds. The Roman physician Pedanius Dioscrorides (c 75 B.C) recommended aloe for wounds and skin conditions. Alexander the Great’s mentor, Aristotle, persuaded him to capture the island of Socotra to harvest the aloe plants for treating wounded soldiers.

Interestingly, the medieval near eastern classic textbook of medicine entitled Canon of Medicine by Avicenna mentioned an ointment termed Marhami Isa (Ointment of Jesus).

what kind of people leave the wounds of their loved ones unattended while the loved onesa are still alive? i am guessing only a muslim would do or believe in this.

It’s what the disciples did: “And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71). “Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak”(Mark 14:50).

Peace.

 

[jakasaki]

You guys should start a new thread to discuss whatever you all are posting regarding blood, gushing, not dead, passed out, was drugged… etc… etc… etc…

OR

Stick to the thread topic of “Prophets after Jesus”

CAUSE

I can see the Mod coming in here and locking this thread for major derailment.

JUST

My :twocents: on being on CAF for many years…!!!

 

[Dialogues]

what is the reasoning behind the muslim teaching that a Divine Person CANNOT have two natures?

i know they assert it. i just do not know why they make such an assertion.

does anyone know why muslims teach that God cannot have two natures?

The Islamic teaching is that humans have the capacity to acquire some divine attributes, such as mercy and justice. Just like a piece of iron displays some properties of fire when thrust into it, such as being very hot and having the capacity to burn, similarly, those humans who are very close to God in profound love [e.g. prophets] reflect those divine attributes to a far greater degree than those who are not that close to Him [e.g. ordinary believers].

It is humans who are created in the image of God, i.e. having the ability to reflect some divine attributes, but God is not an image of man. God is far above His creation.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

… Stick to the thread topic of “Prophets after Jesus”

Thanks for the reminder.

Though, it is still relevant to the topic, because if Jesus did not die on the cross, and did not physically ascend to heaven, then he will not return to this world in person, and the prophecy could only be fulfilled in the form of another person, a prophet who would be like Jesus in spiritual powers, just as John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah.



Peace.

 

[jakasaki]

Thanks for the reminder.

Though, it is still relevant to the topic, because if Jesus did not die on the cross, and did not physically ascend to heaven, then he will not return to this world in person, and the prophecy could only be fulfilled in the form of another person, a prophet who would be like Jesus in spiritual powers, just as John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah.



Peace.

My experience on CAF has been that you stick to the subject of the thread, otherwise the Mod which is Mr. Eric will come in here and kill the thread and at many times there are suspensions and or banishment…

Love for all ~ hatred for none!

 

[daler]

The Islamic teaching is that humans have the capacity to acquire some divine attributes, such as mercy and justice. Just like a piece of iron displays some properties of fire when thrust into it, such as being very hot and having the capacity to burn, similarly, those humans who are very close to God in profound love [e.g. prophets] reflect those divine attributes to a far greater degree than those who are not that close to Him [e.g. ordinary believers].

It is humans who are created in the image of God, i.e. having the ability to reflect some divine attributes, but God is not an image of man. God is far above His creation.

Peace.

Dialogues,
. This is very good, what you say, that as humans, we can acquire these attributes which are latent within us. The “image” of which you speak is a spiritual, not a physical image. To my understanding, the Prophets come into the world to demonstrate these attributes of God, or divine attributes, that we may reflect them as well by following their example and learning from their teachings and life.

. Yet what is sad is that people are narrow minded, too often attacking anything that is different or new, unable to taste the fresh water flowing from these spiritual wells. If we liken the Prophets to an Oasis in a desert which we travel on our spiritual journey, if we have not tasted fresh water or eaten luscious dates for a very long period of time, we may be so emaciated as to reject this water or food, even as a starving baby will reject food once it has reached such a state or condition.

. That God sent His Messengers on a fairly continuous basis for the several thousand year history of humanity tells us that we have need of this spiritual water, and that the Beneficent, All Knowing, and All Merciful God knows our needs, and supplies us with coded Messages which come to us through the voice of the Prophets. Yet it is given in such a way as to require something of us. That we purify ourselves to be pure receptacles of this Bounty in order to receive it, and then accept and appreciate it.

. What I read in the Holy Quran is that the verses themselves are the pure beverage alluded to from ancient times, such as when Moses struck the rock, and water flowed out. In a metaphorical sense, when the Roman soldiers stuck Jesus while on the cross, His Spirit flowed out, for those who would receive it. And when Muhammad (PBUH) recited the verses given to Him by the Angel Gabriel, the waters of utterance rained upon the hearts of the believers, while those who betrayed their trust in God were consumed in the flood, even as in the days of Noah.

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,
. This is very good, what you say, that as humans, we can acquire these attributes which are latent within us. The “image” of which you speak is a spiritual, not a physical image. To my understanding, the Prophets come into the world to demonstrate these attributes of God, or divine attributes, that we may reflect them as well by following their example and learning from their teachings and life.

Indeed, it cannot be a physical image, as God is not physical.

And indeed, prophets are like mirrors who reflect some divine attributes, and because of this reflection, some naive people mistakenly accord them divinity. They are like the iron bar in fire which has a glow that reflects the properties of light.

. That God sent His Messengers on a fairly continuous basis for the several thousand year history of humanity tells us that we have need of this spiritual water, and that the Beneficent, All Knowing, and All Merciful God knows our needs, and supplies us with coded Messages which come to us through the voice of the Prophets.

Yes, I would agree with that. I would add to this that according to the Qur’an [4:69], prophets will now only appear from among the followers of the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a.

Yet it is given in such a way as to require something of us. That we purify ourselves to be pure receptacles of this Bounty in order to receive it, and then accept and appreciate it.

May Allah purify us, Ameen.

. What I read in the Holy Quran is that the verses themselves are the pure beverage alluded to from ancient times, such as when Moses struck the rock, and water flowed out.

The revelation of the Qur’an has been likened to rain which falls on the desert landscape and gives new life to it.

Peace.

 

[Techno2000]

Peace.

Pilate expressed surprise at being told he was already dead after roughly 3 hours on the cross, whereas he knew crucifixion took an average of about 3 days, sometimes even lasting up to about a week or so.

It was to confirm he wasn’t feigning death, for he would have moved if he was still conscious. The roman soldiers appear not to have been aware of the drugged drink, or they would have known he had only fainted.

There are not sufficient grounds to reach such a conclusion.

Some secret friends of Jesus are said to have taken care of him:

John 19:38 After this Joseph of Arimathe′a, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicode′mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight. 40 They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.

Nicodemus had previously met Pilate by night to discuss some plans to save Jesus in secret, out of fear of the Jews. Aloes and myrrh were well-known healing salves. They were used to treat the wounds of Jesus to prevent further bleeding and infection and to heal them. 100 lb is quite a lot! They knew he was alive and his wounds needed healing.

These plants, particularly aloe plants, are considered medicinal and applied to wounds. It was used extensively in many ancient cultures is used even today to soothe open wounds. The Roman physician Pedanius Dioscrorides (c 75 B.C) recommended aloe for wounds and skin conditions. Alexander the Great’s mentor, Aristotle, persuaded him to capture the island of Socotra to harvest the aloe plants for treating wounded soldiers.

Interestingly, the medieval near eastern classic textbook of medicine entitled Canon of Medicine by Avicenna mentioned an ointment termed Marhami Isa (Ointment of Jesus).

It’s what the disciples did: “And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71). “Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak”(Mark 14:50).

Peace.

brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm#ltrofjcs