S
Sherlock
Guest
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Are you saying that you expected that the Second Coming would come in the year since you’ve started your account? Why is that?
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Are you saying that you expected that the Second Coming would come in the year since you’ve started your account? Why is that?
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
Dear Church Militant,
Your kindness is overwhelming. Really. I do appreciate it.
I’m just too affected by the people around me. I can’t take this world any more. I’m losing my faith. What with the Church scandals, the inconsistancies in scripture, the controversies within the Church, the moral laxity of the laity, the poor leadership and mixed messages from the pulpit, the hypocrisy and viciousness in the devout, and my own lack of spiritual progress, I feel like I need a change. I feel like a ship without a rudder.
Your kindness is overwhelming. Really. I do appreciate it.
I’m just too affected by the people around me. I can’t take this world any more. I’m losing my faith. What with the Church scandals, the inconsistancies in scripture, the controversies within the Church, the moral laxity of the laity, the poor leadership and mixed messages from the pulpit, the hypocrisy and viciousness in the devout, and my own lack of spiritual progress, I feel like I need a change. I feel like a ship without a rudder.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Then let me affect you my friend, or do you not think that God brought you here to post and me to respond for His own reasons?
I understand all your reasonings, but they won’t make you feel any better if you bail on what is real.
Please PM me with the inconsistencies in scripture that you mention, because that is one thing that I have had to dig into myself and I can assure you that I’ve probably resolved most all of the ones you have because I had them too.
The pulpit problems are always weird, but they’re just like the rest of raggedy humanity, they get messed up too. Have ya thought of changing parishes? I know that not all the Catholic Churches are messed up, because my own is grand alltogether, but the most important pulpit is that one in Rome, and that one has been very very consistent over the last 2 pontificates. (Hey I wasn’t paying much attention prior to that, though I hear that John XXIII was a great dude!). Thank God that my own priests are so good, and I know it makes a difference.
Lemme get nosy here just for a sec if you don’t mind… When was the last time that you made a good confession? I often find that that is the answer to problems in my spiritual life. You can certainly tell me it’s none of my business if you wish and I won’t get my feelings hurt.
I really wanna give ya a hand with this if I can, H.O.
Pax tecum,
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
My last confession was in December. I generally keep up with it. I really am pretty faithful actually.
You are very kind. I’m just discouraged. Also, I suspect that there’s more than the Church says. I suspect hidden truths, such as Jesus said to the Apostles, he said that they weren’t ready to here it all and that he was holding out on them (I’m paraphrasing here, mind you.) I really think the fullness of the truth has not been revealed and that even the Church is in the dark about a lot of the workings of the universe.
You are very kind. I’m just discouraged. Also, I suspect that there’s more than the Church says. I suspect hidden truths, such as Jesus said to the Apostles, he said that they weren’t ready to here it all and that he was holding out on them (I’m paraphrasing here, mind you.) I really think the fullness of the truth has not been revealed and that even the Church is in the dark about a lot of the workings of the universe.
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
As far as Scripture, I don’t think it’s proof about Jesus fullfilling OT scriptures, since he was well versed in them, so could fullfill them himself. I also think that the OT is mostly ethno-centric and that the Jews used God as an excuse to wipe out their enemies.
But I do actually believe in Christ’s divinity, although I suspect that all of humanity is really a part of that same divinity. I also suspect that God really intends that we all return to him eventually and that Hell might not be literal or it might serve some temporary function.
But I do actually believe in Christ’s divinity, although I suspect that all of humanity is really a part of that same divinity. I also suspect that God really intends that we all return to him eventually and that Hell might not be literal or it might serve some temporary function.
H
hurst
Guest
You do have an obligation to test the spirit of your thoughts. Or do you think you generate your own thoughts and are obliged to follow them? There is a battle that wages for our souls, for our willingness to cooperate. Will it be with good or evil? Will it be unto the giving of ourselves or the getting for ourselves? Charity or Selfishness? Trace the root of your thoughts before you decide to cling to them.
Proverbs 3:5 Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. 6 In all thy ways think on him, and he will direct thy steps. 7 Be not wise in thy own conceit: fear God, and depart from evil:
Faith does not rely on reason. Rather, it elevates reason without destroying it. If you are looking for reasons to believe something, then look for what the immutable God has spoken, for that is what our faith was made for.
hurst
A
AquinasXVI
Guest
HO:
Greetings!!! It seems to me you have come to a point of human exhaust…Like a marathon runner, you’re feeling the first pains of the long run. This is natural. But our baptismal gifts (mostly underestimated and unthought of) is an endless spring of grace that we can tap into…We are asked to live a supernatural life…in Christ in and through the Holy Eucharist.
When nothing else seem to keep us in the church the Holy Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life lest we forget. All other reasons do not even compete.
There are several opinions that you shared that need to be reconsidered. The mediocrity of some priests that you’ve seen is not a complete picture, just the other day an Italian priest was praying after Mass and murdered. Orthodox orders are growing in number. Too much politics, my wife converted to the CC because she saw far too much politics from her previous denomination as one of the reasons. Too much control; compared to Hollywood where SIN doesn’t exist, the prescriptions of the Church is for our own good and control is hardly the word for we are the only Christian Church that has a whole, balanced and complete theology on FREE WILL. Vatican II being a mess----well, we’d have to wait a little longer than 40 years to make a judgement call on that. After Trent, some parishes didn’t even get the docs after 100 years. After a council it takes about a century to really begin to see the effects.
I hope your despair doesn’t overcast HOPE. Chesterton said that we do not want a church that agrees with us when we are right, we want a church that tells us where we are wrong. Thus far, only the CC is consistent in its teaching in pointing out SIN.
What is the point of faith if it is not tested? Be not afraid of the Church. Take some time to read lives of the saints.
God bless you at your dark night.
in XT.
Greetings!!! It seems to me you have come to a point of human exhaust…Like a marathon runner, you’re feeling the first pains of the long run. This is natural. But our baptismal gifts (mostly underestimated and unthought of) is an endless spring of grace that we can tap into…We are asked to live a supernatural life…in Christ in and through the Holy Eucharist.
When nothing else seem to keep us in the church the Holy Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life lest we forget. All other reasons do not even compete.
There are several opinions that you shared that need to be reconsidered. The mediocrity of some priests that you’ve seen is not a complete picture, just the other day an Italian priest was praying after Mass and murdered. Orthodox orders are growing in number. Too much politics, my wife converted to the CC because she saw far too much politics from her previous denomination as one of the reasons. Too much control; compared to Hollywood where SIN doesn’t exist, the prescriptions of the Church is for our own good and control is hardly the word for we are the only Christian Church that has a whole, balanced and complete theology on FREE WILL. Vatican II being a mess----well, we’d have to wait a little longer than 40 years to make a judgement call on that. After Trent, some parishes didn’t even get the docs after 100 years. After a council it takes about a century to really begin to see the effects.
I hope your despair doesn’t overcast HOPE. Chesterton said that we do not want a church that agrees with us when we are right, we want a church that tells us where we are wrong. Thus far, only the CC is consistent in its teaching in pointing out SIN.
What is the point of faith if it is not tested? Be not afraid of the Church. Take some time to read lives of the saints.
God bless you at your dark night.
in XT.
1
1ke
Guest
Well, the only pro you need is:
The Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth and was instituted by Christ, is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, and is the means by which we receive the Sacraments. It God’s Kingdom and the chosen Bride of Christ.
All of the “cons” you listed exist in other denominations. The priest at my Episcopal Church was sent to rehab by the diocese several times and then he was “retired”. There is dissent, confusion, and problems in every faith-- it’s called “sin”. If you are looking to leave in order to find a perfect utopian society somewhere, you will be sorely disappointed.
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
I had been praying for God to send me a sign as to what direction, spiritually, I should go. So, in short order, I was done wrong by the Catholic pillar of the faith and encountered the woman after daily Mass who was so negative.
Father did give a nice little homily yesterday on Martha, and that she was very close to Jesus actually, one of the first to realize that he the Messiah, but that what we read in the Bible was just her ‘bad day’. He said that we shouldn’t judge Martha from her bad day.
Sometimes I feel like Martha, that I’m under appreciated and judged harshly for my bad day. I like the way Martha felt close enough to Jesus to complain to him. That indicates a level of friendship that was close. According to Father, Martha was the one who was closer to Jesus.
Anyways, I might just stay in the Church, but also do my own thing and investigate other philosophies more. I refuse to accept that the Catechism of the Church is all there is. I think a lot has been left out about how things really work.
Father did give a nice little homily yesterday on Martha, and that she was very close to Jesus actually, one of the first to realize that he the Messiah, but that what we read in the Bible was just her ‘bad day’. He said that we shouldn’t judge Martha from her bad day.
Sometimes I feel like Martha, that I’m under appreciated and judged harshly for my bad day. I like the way Martha felt close enough to Jesus to complain to him. That indicates a level of friendship that was close. According to Father, Martha was the one who was closer to Jesus.
Anyways, I might just stay in the Church, but also do my own thing and investigate other philosophies more. I refuse to accept that the Catechism of the Church is all there is. I think a lot has been left out about how things really work.
I
ironmonk
Guest
There are no cons of the faith. Sometimes people make mistakes. The Papacy is not overblown… the Pope is the successor of Peter whom Christ told to tend His sheep.
Politics are part of life, they affect our lives, the Church needs to be involved in telling us what is right and wrong or we’ll all end up for the worse.
The Faith is not controlling at all. The faith teaches us how God wants us to live and show that we love him.
Priesthood is far from dysfunctional, it is what Christ created. A small number of people made mistakes who happened to be priests.
Confusion since V2 is due to satan sifting us like wheat… study up on the Vision of Pope Leo XIII.
Promises of Christ have and are being fulfilled. The Church will never be overcome and all who leave it are wrong to do so. (St. Matt 16:18-19, Acts 20:29-30, 1 Pet. 3:15, St. John 14, 1 Tim 3 :15)
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
Another con for me is how the Catechism treats our relationship with God as sort of a vending machine. If you do this, this, and this, then you get to Heaven. Now, if you commit a Mortal sin, and know it, then you go to Hell, unless you go to confession. If you are ignorent of it being a sin, then you are given a pass. You have to attend compulsery weekly Mass, otherwise you don’t pass Go and you don’t get $200. If you miss Mass, and meet the 3 criteria, then you go to Hell. Yet, if you murder someone, but go to confession before dying, then you go to Heaven, although you might spend more time in Purgatory.
Another con of the Church is that the power structure lends itself to abuse, right down to the Church secretary and head of the Liturgical committee. There’s a lot of social climbing that goes on in the organization of the Church I’ve noticed, and once someone gets into a position of authority it seems to go to their heads. They often know just who they need to brownnose to and who they can walk all over behind closed doors. I’ve noticed this attitude permeating my Catholic religion, with no checks and balances.
Another con of the Church is that the power structure lends itself to abuse, right down to the Church secretary and head of the Liturgical committee. There’s a lot of social climbing that goes on in the organization of the Church I’ve noticed, and once someone gets into a position of authority it seems to go to their heads. They often know just who they need to brownnose to and who they can walk all over behind closed doors. I’ve noticed this attitude permeating my Catholic religion, with no checks and balances.
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
You cannot possibly commit a mortal sin without knowing it, and the catechism does not in any way say that you can. It also doesn’t treat the faith like a vending machine, and I would be more than willing to argue with you that it is by far Protestant theology that does this, and Catholic theology that does not.
What it all comes down to is that there can be only one pro or one con to any faith.
Pro - This is the true faith that Christ instituted
Con - This is not the true faith that Christ instituted
There are no pros or cons beyond that. Whichever faith is the true faith by definition can have no cons, because even those things which we see as cons in this life are actually helping us out even if we don’t realize it.
There can be no cons beyond a faith not being true, because if it is not true that con is so big that nothing else matters.
What you need to do is figure out where Christ wants you, what faith He started. Pray to Him. Ask Him. That is what matters. Whether people in that faith are sinful or it seems disorganized or the way it is running at this point in time is perfect or not is irrelevant. There is no faith on earth you can join where you will not find these sorts of problems. What matters is which faith teaches truth, regardless of who in it does what or what state it is in. Are there sinners in the Catholic Church? Of course, as there are in all the world. Is there a priest shortage? Of course, just as Christ warned us that His Church would undergo tribulations and persecutions. None of this sort of “how’s it going right now” stuff matters.
All that matters is truth. Is the Catholic Church true? Is it the Church Christ instituted? Is what She teaches true? This is all that you should focus on. Figure that out with God’s help. I’m not telling you the answer hear, just what you need to focus on. All of this other stuff is simply distraction put in your path by Satan.
It also doesn’t treat the faith like a vending machine, and I would be more than willing to argue with you that it is by far Protestant theology that does this, and Catholic theology that does not.What it all comes down to is that there can be only one pro or one con to any faith.
Pro - This is the true faith that Christ instituted
Con - This is not the true faith that Christ instituted
There are no pros or cons beyond that. Whichever faith is the true faith by definition can have no cons, because even those things which we see as cons in this life are actually helping us out even if we don’t realize it.
There can be no cons beyond a faith not being true, because if it is not true that con is so big that nothing else matters.
What you need to do is figure out where Christ wants you, what faith He started. Pray to Him. Ask Him. That is what matters. Whether people in that faith are sinful or it seems disorganized or the way it is running at this point in time is perfect or not is irrelevant. There is no faith on earth you can join where you will not find these sorts of problems. What matters is which faith teaches truth, regardless of who in it does what or what state it is in. Are there sinners in the Catholic Church? Of course, as there are in all the world. Is there a priest shortage? Of course, just as Christ warned us that His Church would undergo tribulations and persecutions. None of this sort of “how’s it going right now” stuff matters.
All that matters is truth. Is the Catholic Church true? Is it the Church Christ instituted? Is what She teaches true? This is all that you should focus on. Figure that out with God’s help. I’m not telling you the answer hear, just what you need to focus on. All of this other stuff is simply distraction put in your path by Satan.
J
JimG
Guest
Of course Christ is already here. He is present in every Eucharist. He is present in the sacraments to heal, forgive sins, baptize, join people together, and ordain. We are collectively the body of Christ in a way that is more than metaphor, with the Holy Spirit as our soul. He promised to remain with His Church to the end, and He does.
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
I don’t think Satan is putting these thoughts into my head. I think that’s a weak argument actually. Also, I’m tired of hearing that the Church is made up of sinners and that’s why it’s so lousy. Why aren’t there better results, then? If this is Christ’s special church then why aren’t Catholics more holy? It really bothers me that people can walk out of receiving the Lord in Mass and lash out and get angry, or immediately start gossiping or trashing the priest, or other parishioners.
I think our spiritual walk is individual and continues after death in some form. I think that people in other parts of the world do this through other religions.
I think our spiritual walk is individual and continues after death in some form. I think that people in other parts of the world do this through other religions.
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
Satan very well could be putting the idea that the things you mentioned are important into your head. He is not putting the desire to search for truth into your head. That is a great desire. But the idea that the state of any church has anything to do with whether it is the one instituted by Christ is a stumbling block that very easily could have been put there by Satan. What matters is this:
Christ instituted a Church. He taught many things. Which church is the one He instituted, and which church teaches the things taught by Christ. Those are what matter. Whether there are a lot of priests or ministers in that church, or whether the people in that church dealve too much, too little, or just enough into politics and those sorts of things don’t matter because they have nothing to do with whether the church teaches truth or not.
As far as sinners in the Catholic Church, and what you seem to be talking about in con #6: Christ promised that His Church would always be with us. So if His Church is supposed to be one that does not have sinners in it, then His promise that His Church would always be with us is unfulfilled because there is not a church on this earth that has no sinners in it. If you are looking for a perfect church, you are never going to find it (until the day you get to Heaven) because it doesn’t exist. Peter denied Christ, a sin that is infinitely worse than any sin anybody in any church could ever committ, and yet he was one of the founding figures of Chrit’s Church. Jacob was a liar. Moses and King David were murderers. Paul just couldn’t stop sinning no matter how hard he tried! What other promises do you feel are not fulfilled in the Catholic Church?
C
clmowry
Guest
And here I Thought had the glass is half empty title all wraped up.
I’ve been lamenting the lack of piety in myself and much of the Church lately. It is of grat concern to me that we see so little difference between the exmples given by many Catholics and that given by the the world at large.
But I think you dismiss Satan too quickly. If you cannot see all of the good done by the Catholic Church over the last 2000 or so years, you my friend are being blinded by someone or something.
The good out weighs the bad by orders of magnitude. For every hurt there are thousands of helps.
There are 1000 registered families in my Parish. And it pains me to no end to see the 2/3 that are luke warm at best.
But the other third. They are a joy to my heart. They do so much good for so many in ways many never get to see.
And then there are a few I am sure who are true Saintly Souls. You can see the Spirit of God working through them in all they do.
And alas it is those few who shine so brightly that make me fear for the rest of us.
For I see in them what we all should be, but are not.
But it is not The Faith that is to blaim. It is our own weakness and pride. The Church has delivered us these few Saints. If we fail to become one of them, we have no one to blaim but ourselves.
HumbleObedience:
I’ve been lamenting the lack of piety in myself and much of the Church lately. It is of grat concern to me that we see so little difference between the exmples given by many Catholics and that given by the the world at large.
But I think you dismiss Satan too quickly. If you cannot see all of the good done by the Catholic Church over the last 2000 or so years, you my friend are being blinded by someone or something.
The good out weighs the bad by orders of magnitude. For every hurt there are thousands of helps.
There are 1000 registered families in my Parish. And it pains me to no end to see the 2/3 that are luke warm at best.
But the other third. They are a joy to my heart. They do so much good for so many in ways many never get to see.
And then there are a few I am sure who are true Saintly Souls. You can see the Spirit of God working through them in all they do.
And alas it is those few who shine so brightly that make me fear for the rest of us.
For I see in them what we all should be, but are not.
But it is not The Faith that is to blaim. It is our own weakness and pride. The Church has delivered us these few Saints. If we fail to become one of them, we have no one to blaim but ourselves.
D
doomhammer
Guest
what about Jesus on the Cross? “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani”
S
Strider
Guest
HO,
Don’t take offense at the following, as you seem easily offended, but by your posts in this thread, you come across as whiney.
You’re upset by a woman who was rude right after receiving Communion.
How do you think that looks from the Cross?
A few of your posts contain a degree of heresy, as you believe in Christ’s divinity but you believe all of humanity it part of that same divinity!
Of course, we all get tired of abuse and bad behavior by our fellow Catholics. Name an organization that does better.
Hell might not be literal? Read the Gospels.
You sound like the corwd who had been fed by Jesus miraculously when he multiplied the loaves and fishes. The next day thay said, “Show us a sign.”
You don’t like to hear that the Church is made up of sinners? If no sinners were allowed, only Jesus and Mary would be members.
There is much more confusion in other posts of yours; some of them sound almost New Age.
You need a good spiritual director. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.
I have a question for you: Why did Jesus choose Judas as an apostle?
I’ve always considered Judas as an example Jesus used to show us that there would always be sinners – big sinners – in the Church. We have to deal with that.
There has always been a period of confusion, sometimes lasting a hundred years, after a Church council. Many posters have tried to point out to you how much better things are getting. If you truly believe in the divinity of Christ and that the Catholic Church is the church he instituted, that he’s truly and substantially present in the Eucharist, then the rest will fall into place. If you don’t, you can find fault with the Church until the cows come home and there will be no answer that will satisfy you.
If you want something more substantial than the Catechism, try Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.
Remember, rules make you free!
H
HumbleObedience
Guest
Strider
Church Militant didn’t call me a heretic. And, he didn’t call me whiney. I think I prefer talking to him. I’m sure you aren’t offended by me asking you to not speak to me because you come across as insulting and insensitive.
Church Militant didn’t call me a heretic. And, he didn’t call me whiney. I think I prefer talking to him. I’m sure you aren’t offended by me asking you to not speak to me because you come across as insulting and insensitive.
T
Thal59
Guest
You have just sat in judgement of the entire Catholic church including over one and a quarter billion people! You do not like the results and you do not feel Catholics are holy enough. Your problem in internal, not the church.
Look at it this way. The same Roman Catholic Church that has a handful of pedophile priests is also the same church that produces people like St. Faustina, Maximillian Kolbe, John Paul II, Mother Theresa, etc.
Its not a question of the Catholic church or the Catholic faith… its a question of what one does with it.
Thal59
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