Proselytism to Orthodox

[DavidKays]

In reality, they are not in communion.

The Orthodox disagree with supremacy/infallibility.

Hi Mickey! When you read my post you must understand that yes today the 2 churches seemingly appear to be not in communion but in reality, this was my point in writing the post, they are in communion. If you read my post you would have a clearer understanding of some of my points that I wanted to bring up. As an Orthodox yourself I can understand why you think the way you do as do most Orthodox. Please let me say that I grew up more Catholic than Orthodox so I know my Catholic brothers and sisters more than most Orthodox who never ventured into a Catholic church. I grew up understanding Catholic ways because for the first 28 years I practiced and worshipped within the confines of the Catholic Church. I know her from the inside out unlike most Orthodox who only know her from the outside in. I have a greater respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters. Now that does not mean that I agree with her all the time. On the contrary I have debated with them on many issues and I believe there are incorrect on many issues for instance on supreme Papal authority. Let me tell you that the Popes do not want Supreme Authority over the East. Mayby the Catholic laypeople do but not the Popes. The problem with Catholics is that they do not read their own Popes. They have already decided too much what they do believe without checking out what their Popes have written. The problems with Catholics is very simply they do not read what the Popes have written. Everything the Popes have written can be checked out and can also silence the many Catholics who take too much of their own interpretation and throw it to us Orthodox. Both the Catholic and Orthodox churches have made statements where you can receive Communion in either churches. It is a start but read your own statements from the Orthodox. Both have declared that you can receive. Not many adhere to it but it is on paper written both by the Papacy and from the Orthodox. It is my conclusion that many people do not read these statements at all or their are not aware of them. My book will clarify the many misunderstandings and misconceptions that we have today. Thank you for your comments. I have a great love for my own Church as well and just to let you know that my Church has now the same chair His Holiness John Paul II sat on when he came to Canada for his 1st visit. It was in the attic for 20+ years and when an Orthodox priest saw it he asked for it and the Catholic priest said it was OK but you have to pay for the shipping. Now my own Orthodox Bishop sits on it when he arrives. I kid my Catholic friends when they are visiting my church saying " go ahead and sit on it, we are not charging anyone yet…" Anyway thank you and God Bless!

 

[jsps999]

To: DavidKay

Please write that book!
I would presume that you would also include references to the Tradition?
Thank you for for your postings here and I also thank all the others here who have posted about Orthodoxy and Catholic.

Some may find this Web page rather interesting for the historical aspects from the Early Church to the Schism, and beyond:

stjohnswarren.com/Orthodoxy.html

 

[trophybearer]

To: DavidKay

Please write that book!
I would presume that you would also include references to the Tradition?
Thank you for for your postings here and I also thank all the others here who have posted about Orthodoxy and Catholic.

Some may find this Web page rather interesting for the historical aspects from the Early Church to the Schism, and beyond:

stjohnswarren.com/Orthodoxy.html

my kitchen table IS a bit wobbly…

 

[Ignatios]

Hi Mickey! … Both the Catholic and Orthodox churches have made statements where you can receive Communion in either churches. It is a start but read your own statements from the Orthodox. Both have declared that you can receive. Not many adhere to it but it is on paper written both by the Papacy and from the Orthodox. It is my conclusion that many people do not read these statements at all or their are not aware of them…

Can you provide us with the evidence, i.e. those documents that allows both Orthodox and RCs to receive communion in eachothers churches ? Thank you.
GOD bless you all †††

 

[Aramis]

Can you provide us with the evidence, i.e. those documents that allows both Orthodox and RCs to receive communion in eachothers churches ? Thank you.
GOD bless you all †††

On the catholic side:

CIC Canon 842 §2 and CCEO Canon 671 §2 both permit Catholics to approach the Orthodox (and ministers of other Churches with valid sacraments), if the Orthodox are willing, for the sacraments of Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, and Reconciliation.

CIC Canon 842 §3 and CCEO Canon 671 §3 both permit the Orthodox (and some others) to come forward to receive in the Catholic Churches, subject to their own discretion and their home Church’s disciplines.

CIC: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
CCEO: intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Generally, the only EO Church that has much regular communing of/from Catholics is the Antiochian Orthodox Church. And that’s handled on a local level, and informally.

 

[Hesychios]

Again, when I say “anti-Catholic” I’m referring specifically to rejecting Catholic propositions, not any kind of irrational hatred.

I think that the term is problematic, because most Catholics use it in the more negative “irrational hatred” sense most of the time (from what I can tell).

 

[Ignatios]

On the catholic side:

CIC Canon 842 §2 and CCEO Canon 671 §2 both permit Catholics to approach the Orthodox (and ministers of other Churches with valid sacraments), if the Orthodox are willing, for the sacraments of Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, and Reconciliation.

CIC Canon 842 §3 and CCEO Canon 671 §3 both permit the Orthodox (and some others) to come forward to receive in the Catholic Churches, subject to their own discretion and their home Church’s disciplines.

CIC: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
CCEO: intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Generally, the only EO Church that has much regular communing of/from Catholics is the Antiochian Orthodox Church. And that’s handled on a local level, and informally.

Thank you Aramis for the respond, However, I am aware of the RCC stand in regard to the Orthodox concerning the Eucharist, But my question was about what DavidKays said:
“…Both the Catholic and Orthodox churches have made statements where you can receive Communion in either churches…”
This I am not aware of, as both has made a declaration, or even from the Orthodox side at least.

As an Antiochian (Lebanese) myself I am also aware that many Melkites and Maronites receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Churches, I have seen this my self in an area where there is a big Churches and half of the populations either Melkites and/or Maronites, and not to mention that there is mixed marriages almost in every house, my brother-in-law is Maronite and the other Melkite the rest are Orthodox (big families, by the way no contraception problems in that part of the world as you see, I have 41 first-cousin ) so it does exist but it is not canonical for Orthodox to receive in non-Orthodox Church nor the other way around.

When I question that, the priest said , " what can I do? ask each and everyone, what Church does he belong to when he come up to receive the Eucharist? they know where we stand ", and not to mention that almost all the Eastern catholic sign the cross the same way as the Orthodox when they come up to receive.

However this situation is new to both the Orthodox and the Catholics, it appeared during the civil war in Lebanon, and some Catholic and Orthodox bishops mentioned it openly, but people kept going regardless.

GOD bless you all †††

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Hi! I am Greek Orthodox and I will like to respond to this forum’s question. To my knowledge the Orthodox and Catholic Church are just beginning to enter into full Communion with each other.
…
There is no need but to accept each other as brothers. We have the power to heal wounds. Pray that God will enable us to see us as He sees us and to realize that God desires this healing so we can see in each other this unity which still exists and which can never be severed. It is to that relationship that I pray for that the Pope His Holiness John Paul II also desires and to which every Orthodox and Catholic will embrace. God Bless! and by the way thank you for these forums because I have now a primer for my book and I hope I can clarify more of this in the book.

Brother, thank you for your posts! You truly, sincerely made my day. If there will come a time of unity among us Orthodox and Catholics, it will come in large part through the prayers and actions of people like you.

Reading your posts I was reminded of the marvelous events of Soufanieh (a suburb of Damascus, Syria), where Our Lady has been appearing to a housewife Myrna Nazzour, since 1982. Myrna is Melkite Catholic, and her husband Nicholas is Greek Orthodox. Our Lady has been calling us to unity, and asked the authorities to take action so that Pascha would be celebrated on the same day. This has been accomplished indeed in Syria, the various Patriarchs (including Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Syriac Orthodox etc) all agreed to celebrate Pascha on the same day, and it has been like that since 2002. I know a wonderful EO Archbishop (of the Society of Clerks of St. Basil Secular) from New Orleans, this Bishop has been to Soufanieh in the house of Nicholas and Myrna, and says that the authenticity of Our Lady’s apparitions has been recognized by the Melkite Patriarch, the Greek EO Patriarch, and every single Church and their Patriarchs in Damascus. The good Bishop jokingly said that even the Pastor of the local Baptist (Protestant) Church fully believes what’s happening, which is of course rather funny because Protestants are not known for their devotion to Our Lady.

There have been also many miracles. It all started with an icon of Theotokos with little Jesus, similar to the icon of Our Lady of Kazan, exuding myrrh. This icon is in the house of Nicholas and Myrna. There have been many miraculous healings of Christians and Muslims praying in front of the icon or anointed with the myrrh. There is also an atmosphere of genuine peace and unity, with Christians of all denominations, as well as Muslims, praying together in the house of Nicholas and Myrna. Also, many miracles were witnessed by various Bishops and Patriarchs, the Apostolic Nuncio from the Vatican to Syria, etc.

The gist of the messages from Theotokos, and Our Lord Jesus Christ, both of whom appeared many times to Myrna, is a call for unity among the Christians, which, as mentioned, should start with unifying the day on which Pascha is celebrated. Also, the fact that Our Lady of Soufanieh chose a lay family, with a couple in mixed marriage where one spouse is Orthodox and the other one is Catholic, has a special significance. Some of the messages given say that unity is being asked for from us, ordinary people (ordinary laypeople, as opposed to leaders who only pretend to work for unity).

soufanieh.com/

There’s also a very moving book written about the events at Soufanieh, by a well-known Roman Catholic priest from the USA, named Fr. Robert J. Fox (Fr. Fox recently deceased in 2009).

soufanieh.com/ENGLISH/LIGHT.OF.THE.EAST/FFA.htm

Father Fox is much better known for establishing and leading for many years the Fatima Family Apostolate, dedicated to getting out the messages and requests of Our Lady of Fatima, who appeared in 1917 in Fatima, Portugal, and asked for Russia to be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart. Nevertheless, Fr. Fox was invited to Soufanieh in 2001, where he spent some 2 weeks, celebrated the Holy Mass in the house of Nicholas and Myrna, and immersed himself in that atmosphere of peace and unity reigning among lay Christians (and Muslims) visiting the house. Fr. Fox also witnessed the miracle of myrhh exuding from Myrna’s hands, on the occasion of his last evening Mass in Myrna’s house. In addition, he interviewed a number of Patriarchs, Bishops and Priests belonging to the various Christian (Melkite, RC, EO, Syriac) Churches, as well as the Apostolic Nuncio, regarding the apparitions of Our Lady of Soufanieh, and how these apparitions motivated religious leaders to take steps towards unity, starting with the unification of the day of the Feast of Easter (Pascha). I was lucky enough to meet Fr. Fox in 2006, and he made the impression of a holy priest who genuinely longed for that unity among us, Catholic and Orthodox Christians. One of the most beautiful and uplifting statements in his book was, that he wrote the book because during his visit to Soufanieh, he was able to witness the graces that permeate the place, and how indeed the various people, laypeople and consecrated, Orthodox and Catholic Christians, have been truly and sincerely living in that spirit of unity. He said that in the absence of this, the good fruits that were so apparent, there would have been no need or desire from his part to write a book on Soufanieh.

 

[Luvs2Learn]

Something I find very interesting… very often when reading posts on different internet forums regarding the Catholic stance or the Orthodox stance and I read post by either side the defence mechanisim goes on and people start spewing all sorts of were right your wrong blah blah blah… but then I see on the news or read in the paper about yet another step closer to unity between the 2 churches. Statements made from the church heirarchs, not petty comments by anonomous internet posters I realize that we probably are closer to unity then we all think.

 

[Mickey]

If you read my post you would have a clearer understanding of some of my points that I wanted to bring up.

I have read your posts. And I disagree with much of what you say. Forgive me.

Please let me say that I grew up more Catholic than Orthodox so I know my Catholic brothers and sisters more than most Orthodox who never ventured into a Catholic church.

I was Roman Catholic for more than 35 years and Byzantine Catholic for more than Eight years.

I grew up understanding Catholic ways because for the first 28 years I practiced and worshipped within the confines of the Catholic Church.

I was there longer.

I know her from the inside out

Me too.

I have a greater respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters.

I have many family and friends who are still RC or EC. I have a great respect for them…I just disagree with some things.

On the contrary I have debated with them on many issues and I believe they are incorrect on many issues for instance on supreme Papal authority.

Yes.

Let me tell you that the Popes do not want Supreme Authority over the East.

Have you talked to many Popes?

Both the Catholic and Orthodox churches have made statements where you can receive Communion in either churches.

This is only under extra-ordinary conditions.

 

[DavidKays]

Mickey, my brother, I will like to know is why have you left the Roman Catholic Church for a Byzantine Church. Are you still a Roman Catholic or now a Byzantine Catholic? In my post I mentioned about my Catholic upbringing but I was not Catholic but Orthodox. I was baptized Greek Orthodox as a baby but lived first as a Catholic. God was teaching me Catholic ways so as to have a better understanding of Her not like others who only read about Her. I found myself appreciating and accepting and loving Catholic ways and devotions because I was practicing them. Now when I say that I have a greater respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters gosh I am not saying that I have that more than you! What I am saying is I have a greater respect of their teachings, their ways, their devotions, their worship than most Orthodox. ( I mean you are still Catholic ) I enjoy praying like a Catholic. But I also enjoy praying as an Orthodox. I have a greater respect for them because I enjoy better praying the Catholic way. That is all. If you like something don’t hide it. Declare it. It has nothing to do with you but with me. You mentioned you stayed longer while God Bless you for that. I wish all of us including Orthodox can do that! All I want to point out is that most Orthodox cannot descibe Rome in this way. That is all I wanted to point out. Now you are Catholic it seems and now a Byzantine Catholic. Well that’s great. But what do your statements have to do with me! You are still Catholic, OK. I’m Orthodox. I’m an Orthodox telling people he loves the Church of Rome. I do not need to be Catholic to do that! Now your comments on Papal Authority interests me. You mentioned have I talked to many Popes. No I have not. But I have read many of them. The Late Holy Father John Paul II wrote in one of his letters and I will quote " the Pope listens to the East " and " the Church must breathe again her 2 lungs " and again John Paul II wrote that he is willing to have the same relationship to the Orthodox as the Church of Rome had with her before 1054 AD. In these statements I do not see him wanting Jurisdiction of the East. Yes the Holy Father has and deserves Authority. He is the Rock. But his Authority towards the East is the same as Peter’s relationship is to the other 11. The Eastern Church claims Apostlolic Foundation because she is the founding Church from the other 11. Peter given by Our Lord to have Primacy is correct. However the other 11 should support Peter. I cannot go on too much here. Read my book when it comes out. It will say alot more. And please the Churches are just beginning to understand each other. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that Jesus is present on both Catholic and Orthodox altars. I have received Communion in both Churches. Only once there was a problem when a Mother Superior from the RC church refused me so a good friend of mine another Catholic Sister told me to go to the Catholic Bishop and explain what is going on. I did and when he found out I was Greek Orthodox he said there is no problem here. You may go and receive. Mayby 50 years ago this would not have happened but it takes time to heal old wounds. Now the people are beginning to know and better understand each other. That is all it takes! God Bless!

 

[Vico]

… I was baptized Greek Orthodox as a baby but lived first as a Catholic. God was teaching me Catholic ways so as to have a better understanding of Her not like others who only read about Her. I found myself appreciating and accepting and loving Catholic ways and devotions because I was practicing them. … I’m an Orthodox telling people he loves the Church of Rome. I do not need to be Catholic to do that! …

David, do you know about the Russian Vladimir Soloviev (1853-1900) who thought that since there was no direct formal breach between the Sees of Rome and Moscow, that one can profess the totality of Catholic doctrine and be in communion with the Holy See while continuing to be Russian Orthodox?

Soloviev became a Russian Byzantine Catholic in 1896 through Father Nicholas Tolstoy, the first Russian Byzantine Catholic priest. I am not suggesting that you do this, only wondering since you are writing a book. I respect that you are Orthodox.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi Vico! When you mentioned Vladimir Soloviev, you brought back memories when I operated a Catholic/Orthodox bookstore for some 19+ years. During that time, come to think about, someone mentioned Vladimir and even gave some literature about it. I am glad you brought it up. I had forgotten about it. What you posted about him makes sense. Through my Orthodox priest here in Charlottetown, I had discovered that the Russian Orthodox Church does incoperates many western practices into its worship and structure. I am convinced that reconciliation of East and West will occur from the Russian Church. It will be Russia ( now this is my own personal opinion ) that will be the frontleader in restoring East/West relationship. Who knows mayby that is what Fatima was all about. To restore the Orthodox Church in Russia so as to lead the rest of the Orthodox toward a complete Full Communion with Rome. Having Russian Byzantine Catholics do help. Communication with Rome can begin with them. The Russian Orthodox Church is very opened to the West and I believe soon you will see an invitation from Moscow for the Holy Father Benedict XVI to visit. Healing old wounds takes time. The Russian Orthodox Church at 170 million strong which is the largest of the Orthodox Communions can lead the way for the rest of us. You have to wait until the old generation dies away before the new generation tired of decades ( let us face it centuries ) of bickering will accept reconciliation so that Rome and the Orthodox can finally be together. I like to tell you a story which happened about a year ago. Pope Benedict XVI asked for a sympothesium of Bishops including the Orthodox and the Protestants. Many were invited to talk. The biggest applause came from a very young Greek Orthodox Bishop who when it was his turn to address the Pope said " Your Holiness is the Sign for unity…". Well that got a large respnse and applause. So you see it is coming. This Bishop was young. And it will be the next generation that will bring finally bring this much needed restoration of East and West. Thank you Vico for your post. May I have your permission to use it in my book. It will be very helpful. God Bless you and continue to pray for us as we continue to remember you in our prayers.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, my brother, I will like to know is why have you left the Roman Catholic Church for a Byzantine Church. Are you still a Roman Catholic or now a Byzantine Catholic?

I just told you that I was both–and now I am Orthodox.

Now when I say that I have a greater respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters gosh I am not saying that I have that more than you!

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I understand the RCC fairly well and I have some disagreements.

( I mean you are still Catholic ) I enjoy praying like a Catholic.

I am no longer in communion with Rome–and I enjoy praying like an Orthodox.

I enjoy better praying the Catholic way.

If you like something don’t hide it. Declare it.

Sounds like you are not really Orthodox at heart.

Now you are Catholic it seems and now a Byzantine Catholic.

No. I am Orthodox. I was Byzantine Catholic for about eight years.

Read my book when it comes out.

No thank you. You are influenced by much misinformation against Holy Orthodoxy. I’m afraid it would be too biased with many errors.

 

[DavidKays]

Mickey, you still did not answer my question. If you are Orthodox now then why did you choose to be Orthodox. I am curious why you went from Catholic to Byzantine Catholic and now to the Orthodox Church. That is all. I am not interested in debating with you. I am just interested in your reasons for leaving the Catholic Church. To be honest I was confused about what church you were attending. It doesn’t matter to me where someone goes. But listening to their reasons gives me a better understanding of their concerns. I did not want to engage in debating with you. I apologize for that. It is not my way. I like to engage in dialogue but only to share with others. I was hoping you wanted to share your story. Again I am sorry for anything you may have felt about me our my posts. I only engage in debating when I am forced to. I never questioned anyone beliefs unless they asked me to.

 

[Mickey]

If you are Orthodox now then why did you choose to be Orthodox.

If you would like my conversion story–I can send it to you privately.

 

[MGLechner]

Why do Catholics need to proselytize the Orthodox? They are already Christian!

 

[Aramis]

Why do Catholics need to proselytize the Orthodox? They are already Christian!

Many So-called Christians do not in fact even obey Christ’s explicit instruction to Communion; many many Christians misrepresent the nature of the scriptural call.

Some don’t even see a need for Baptism. A few go further afield still…

Therefore, Christian isn’t good enough.

The Orthodox are Christian, and are even Right-Believing in most things. Their ecclesiology is flawed, as is their view of dogma (due to that ecclesiology), but they hold all the essential elements of Truth… They don’t need the same kind of proselytism as other Christians might, since they are close enough to obtain salvation by the sacraments, but we are called to preach the Good News to all; Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, pagan, and heathen alike… And, as St Francis teaches, sometimes we even should use words.

Catholic and Orthodox alike know that salvation is not a switch to be turned at baptism, but a road to be followed. Both teach that road.

 

[Mickey]

The Orthodox are Christian, and are even Right-Believing in most things.

In ALL things.

Their ecclesiology is flawed, as is their view of dogma (due to that ecclesiology)

It is this type of condescending remark which usually results Catholic/Orthodox bitter arguments on this forum.

 

[Aramis]

In ALL things.

It is this type of condescending remark which usually results Catholic/Orthodox bitter arguments on this forum.

You’re on a Catholic Forum. Catholic teaching is that you lack the totality of truth, because you are not in communion with the Heir of St. Peter’s authority.

Therefore, you should both expect, and accept, that the Catholic view, and not your erroneous one, is predominant here.