Proselytizing is widely denounced

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graciew said:
Now that you know what proselytizing means, try and avoid doing it… and that is it…
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I have never proselytized anyone. I don’t know anyone who does. I haven’t read of any cases of it happening anywhere in modern times. Can anyone on this thread please indicate to me any contemporary example of proselytizing which could warrant its frequent denunciation?
 
I liked Brother Jay. He’s a great guy. I hope he’s doing okay. But the story you shared, that took place in a Catholic society. Does just being nice to people in today’s society really evangelize anyone?
 
Well then, what’s your beef with this if you are unrelated ?
 
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Not really a Catholic society… all sorts of people in St Francis’ time…
I miss Brother Jay and he was awesome writing and explaining…He knew a whole lot about almost everything Catholic.
I also hope he is doing well. Every now and then I go to his site Franciscans for Life.
 
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I take it you have no beef with this, can I conclude that you are related? If so I am eager to hear your account of cases of proselytizing which you are aware of!
 
There’s been a lot of analysis of the Pope’s denunciations of proselytizing, and most of them conclude that he’s telling Catholics to not act like the Islamic and/or the Protestant churches who employ aggressive tactics.
Catholics haven’t engaged in any recent proselytizing.
As usual, it would be nice if the Pope would be more clear. I pretty much just pray for the Pope on the clarity point these days as I don’t think it is going to improve. I don’t think the Pope is a bad guy but I hope the next Pope is a better communicator.

 
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You asked, I answered.
And as far as I know , long before anything “Muslim or Protestant” where I live, our Archbishop and priests taught us this about evangelizing and using this word proselytizing, and the difference has been clear to us…ever since.
No beef, no curiosity either.
Just making time before departure with pleasant conversations in threads I like…
 
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Amen to that. One reason I converted was the clarity of Pope Benedict. One quote from him turned me around and opened my mind to the possibility of the Church being the Church founded by Christ. Reading him further, and the Catechism, just solidified that belief. My RCIA instructor was a spirit of Vatican II person, always citing it and lambasting anything before it as old fashioned, misunderstanding the faith, etc.
 
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graciew said:
And as far as I know , long before anything “Muslim or Protestant” where I live, our Archbishop and priests taught us this about evangelizing and using this word proselytizing, and the difference has been clear to us…ever since.
No beef, no curiosity either.
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This is the experience in my ‘field of operation’ as well, graciew. There was a common motto “faith is caught, not taught”. It distinguished between issuing warnings of a vengeful God and His power to destroy you, and a merciful loving Father always ready to welcome you when you are moved by His Grace to want Him.

One of the messages that I’ve tagged in St Faustina’s diaries is this.

“My daughter, know that you give Me greater glory by a single act of obedience than by long prayers and mortifications.” (894) --St Faustina, Divine Mercy in my Soul.

It makes me wonder how Catholics who constantly encourage doubt in the Magisterium of Pope Francis and rejection of his God given authority, reconcile that disobedience with 2000 years of the Seat of Peter?
 
Emeraldlady said:
It makes me wonder how Catholics who constantly encourage doubt in the Magisterium of Pope Francis and rejection of his God given authority, reconcile that disobedience with 2000 years of the Seat of Peter?
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:woman_shrugging:t3:

I don’t know…
It must be difficult or at least a totally different experience of Catholicism.
 
See the book Love for the Papacy and Filial Resistance to the Pope in the History of the Church by Roberto de Mattei, with a foreword by Cardinal Burke.
 
StudentMI said:
See the book Love for the Papacy and Filial Resistance to the Pope in the History of the Church by Roberto de Mattei, with a foreword by Cardinal Burke.
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I’ve read a number of books detailing reasons not to regard the teaching Magisterium as authoritative They don’t offer me anything fruitful.
 
Maximian said:
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graciew:
You asked, I answered.
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Actually no, you haven’t. My question was,
Maximian said:
has anyone here heard of a recent case of people being forced to convert?
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So have you?
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There are still those who today preaching the strict definition of “outside the Church there is no salvation” and reject the Church teaching regarding the special place of the Jews in the economy of salvation. Basically the mentality that you’ll go to hell if you don’t convert type of thing. It’s absolutely alive and well in some Catholic groups.
 
It’s unfortunate that the most quoted supposed saying of St. Francis is one that first surfaced centuries after his death.
Preach Constantly. When necessary, use words.
People who know little or nothing of his reliably recorded words, and the words used by his early followers to evangelize, somehow know that “quote”.
 
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The wikipedia article on Proselytism gives some indications of the problems with proselytism. It quotes a 1995 document from the World Council of Churches and the Roman Catholic Church listing some types of problematic activities:
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  • making unjust or uncharitable references to other churches’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
  • comparing two Christian communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other;
  • employing any kind of physical violence, moral compulsion and psychological pressure e.g. the use of certain advertising techniques in mass media that might bring undue pressure on readers/viewers;
  • using political, social and economic power as a means of winning new members for one’s own church;
  • extending explicit or implicit offers of education, health care or material inducements or using financial resources with the intent of making converts;
  • manipulative attitudes and practices that exploit people’s needs, weaknesses or lack of education especially in situations of distress, and fail to respect their freedom and human dignity.
The 1995 date tells us that this is not a new concern from Pope Francis.
 
Dovekin said:
this is not a new concern from Pope Francis.
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Nobody, least of all I, has suggested it is a new concern. But it is not something he has said as a one-off reminder, it is something he comes back to repeatedly.

Since I started this thread, not one person has actually given an example of proselytizing in modern times which actually deserved such a focus.

I trust the Pope. When he says something is an issue, I believe him. But I want to know where this is becoming an issue. At school? At work? In Africa? In the family?
 
Emeraldlady said:
Pope Francis addressed proselytism as any sort of spiritual bullying that appeals to peoples fear or pride. In an early homily he states…
  • Evangelization goes out to others and listens to them; proselytization excludes others and simply talks at them.
  • Evangelization is a proclamation of Jesus, allowing people to have an encounter with Christ; proselytization is proud and convinced that it has all the answers.
  • Evangelization trusts in the Holy Spirit as the true evangelist, as the one who makes converts; proselytization believes it’s up to us, to the force of our arguments and persuasive power.
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This is similar to what my priest has said in the past.

You are not supposed to brow-beat someone with self-righteousness that they are somehow eternally damned if they don’t become a Catholic. The Church itself has never taught that a specific person is in Hell. Instead, you’re supposed to live by example so that they ask questions and are interested in your faith. It’s fine though to plant seeds hoping this will lead to conversion because you care about their soul, but it’s how you do it that matters. As I will say later, it’s about guiding.

But it is not prostelyzing to expect your kids living under your roof to expect them to come to mass. There’s an element there of you know what’s good for them as a parent even if they don’t know it yet. Actually when I married my Protestant wife, the major important thing there is that I raise them Catholic and we’re on board with doing that and several priests are okay with our path.

I wonder how many atheists would consider it child abuse to force your kid to go to church. There’s a difference between “forcing” your beliefs on someone and not respecting their boundaries (free-will and choice) and guiding them (to which I believe bringing your kids to church is). I do love the military’s approach to church. If you don’t go to church, you’ve got some extra chores to do in the barracks. It’s definitely not a bad way for someone to make the choice to go to church.
 
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