Proselytizing

[Indyann]

Perhaps the reason for that too is because parents reasoned that they should catechize their children by example rather than words as well. So Catholicism for many today has boiled down to doing charity. They were never catechized or never catechized their children because they didn’t think it was needed. Doing good works became the end all and be all. Everything else became secondary to the laity.

Seriously? Have you never noticed the number of “why’s?” that come out of the mouths of children? Explaining the why’s takes a lot of words.

Be it children or adults.

 

[OraLabora]

Ok but still, I see no problem with the use of the word recruit either.

As I said before, I do not disagree. I say that to farm means to plow the field and also to plant the seed. You cannot just say plowing the field is farming. If someone just plows the field without ever planting seeds, all you have is a plowed ground at the end of the day. Someone else might throw some other type of seeds in to it and you will have missed the opportunity to grow what you plowed it for.

So what I am against is people who say just that and try to claim that doing good works by itself constitutes evangelizing. It cannot.

But that is an opinion and depends on also what you are capable of. The Church will always have sinners. Always! Even the early Church had a member like Peter who denied Christ, Other Apostles except John who deserted Christ, and it was soon after Judas had betrayed Christ. If Peter first tried to plow the field before preaching on day of Pentecost, things might have been very different…

So my point is that both the plowing and seeding are needed at all times. We cannot neglect one or the other. Both together is what we call farming. Neither by itself can be called farming.

Some of us are plows, some of us are sowers. The first word of the Rule of St. Benedict is “Listen”. In fact the Rule makes it clear that words are to be used parsimoniously. Which suggests that a Godly life is its own witness.

Similarly, some folks may be attracted by words, others say talk is cheap.

The beauty of the Catholic Church is that she has room for all charisms. We unify our differences into a body with different parts and functions rather than divide them into independent members.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Seriously? Have you never noticed the number of “why’s?” that come out of the mouths of children? Explaining the why’s takes a lot of words.

Be it children or adults.

Yes but usually adults lose touch with their kids very quickly in the West as well. So the Why’s are probably unanswered by their parents but answered by some other… not so reputable… places.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Some of us are plows, some of us are sowers. The first word of the Rule of St. Benedict is “Listen”. In fact the Rule makes it clear that words are to be used parsimoniously. Which suggests that a Godly life is its own witness.

The beauty of the Catholic Church is that she has room for all charisms. We unify our differences into a body with different parts and functions rather than divide them into independent members.

As I said before, I am not debating that people have different charisms. I am merely pointing out that we cannot call “just plowing” as farming. Farming is plowing and seeding. Now the same guy who plows doesn’t need to seed. But someone has to seed.

So in this sense, evangelizing is both walking the walk and talking the talk. It is not two ways but two things that are part of one process of evangelizing. Can we agree on that?

Similarly, some folks may be attracted by words, others say talk is cheap.

People can say a lot of things. What we should be interested in is what is reasonable. Without words, there are no reasons communicated. Hence there is no reason to think Christianity true.

So both the talk and the walk are important. I am against those who think its only the walk that’s important. Just to clarify, is it what you are claiming?

 

[simple_soul]

How about the Catechism then?

905 Lay people also fulfill their prophetic mission by evangelization, "that is, the proclamation of Christ by word and the testimony of life." For lay people, "this evangelization . . . acquires a specific property and peculiar efficacy because it is accomplished in the ordinary circumstances of the world."440

**This witness of life, however, is not the sole element in the apostolate; the true apostle is on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful.**

906 Lay people who are capable and trained may also collaborate in catechetical formation, in teaching the sacred sciences, and in use of the communications media.442

907 "In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons."443

I happen to like paragraph 907 since very often other CAF members will make a point of saying that the laity shouldn’t offer their opinions.

Thank you Lucky for posting this I have always thought since finding out about her that she really lived up to this teaching of the CCC.

The part that you bolder spoke to me the most.
The way I see it is we do need show charity to others in everything thing we think do or say. The part that becomes tricky is knowing what to do when and what to say when. This is when Prudence comes in. We have to learn when to say something and when not to. Some times only actions are necessary. Sometimes it may be words and actions. In my children’s and husband’s case some times all it takes is a look. The thing is we have to make sure that in anything we are doing to evangelize we need to make sure we show the same love for our neighbor that Jesus has for us. Jesus does not force Himself on me I believe this is why I could never try to force my faith on some one. Jesus never forced Himself on me and I can not force my beliefs on others. Although if they allow me to…I would probably talk their ear off. As it is I try to find that balance of living and talking about my faith with out forcing it on some one especially through violence and I do try to speak up about my beliefs and what I believe is morally right or wrong but if I find myself trying to force it I stop.
Anyway just thought I would add my 2cents. Hope and pray it makes sense.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think a good evangelical apostolate is a combination of the two “styles.”

 

[simple_soul]

I think a good evangelical apostolate is a combination of the two “styles.”

A combination of knowing when to speak and when not to. I beleive that this is why Blessed Mother Theresa is such a good evangelist. She knew what to say and what not to say and when the exact right time to say it or not to say it was.

Something else I have been dwelling on. When Jesus instructed the Apostals to go forth and make deciples of men I beleive we are forgetting that Jesus was not a deciple. The perfect deciple whom we should all be following and imitating is His Blessed Mother Mary.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Wevare called to evangelize,not proselytize.This according to John Paul II.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I think a good evangelical apostolate is a combination of the two “styles.”

I think there is no possibility of just one style. The Evangelization must be both witness by good deeds and use of words to give reasons to convert. Its both together that make evangeliztion rather than one alone.

I think people start assuming that they are two methods because they see people converting by just seeing good people. But what they don’t realize is that such conversion on that alone is not reasonable.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Wevare called to evangelize,not proselytize.This according to John Paul II.

I am not sure why this word is causing so much problems. Did JP II say “Do NOT proselytize?” If so, which Church document did he say this in?

Because Proselytize means to convert. Evangelize and Proselytize would therefore mean the same thing anyway. So if JP II said evangelize, it also means that he said Proselytize.

 

[Eufrosnia]

A combination of knowing when to speak and when not to. I beleive that this is why Blessed Mother Theresa is such a good evangelist. She knew what to say and what not to say and when the exact right time to say it or not to say it was.

Something else I have been dwelling on. When Jesus instructed the Apostals to go forth and make deciples of men I beleive we are forgetting that Jesus was not a deciple. The perfect deciple whom we should all be following and imitating is His Blessed Mother Mary.

First of all, what is up with reducing the Blessed Mother to a person we should imitate? The Blessed Mother is the Queen of heaven, our mother, and the most powerful intercessor with Christ, her son.

As far as imitation is concerned, we can’t imitate her in the strict sense of the word. We can only imitate her obedience to the WILL of God. God wills all his people to do good deeds. He also wishes some to give others reasons using words to convert to Christianity. The will of God is not that we all just get along and do charity works with respect to evangelizing. The CCC itself makes that clear as Luky7 posted.

Evangelizing is not solely charity works or solely about giving reasons. It is the combination of it. But people today want to call charity work by itself as evangelizing. WHY? Where has the Church taught that. Just cite one document where the Church says charity work by itself is evangelization or the most effective form of evangelization!

 

[Eufrosnia]

The thing is we have to make sure that in anything we are doing to evangelize we need to make sure we show the same love for our neighbor that Jesus has for us. Jesus does not force Himself on me I believe this is why I could never try to force my faith on some one. Jesus never forced Himself on me and I can not force my beliefs on others. Although if they allow me to…I would probably talk their ear off. As it is I try to find that balance of living and talking about my faith with out forcing it on some one especially through violence and I do try to speak up about my beliefs and what I believe is morally right or wrong but if I find myself trying to force it I stop.
Anyway just thought I would add my 2cents. Hope and pray it makes sense.

I replied to your post on the other thread but I think its more appropriate if we continue here.

I posted this on the prosilatizing thread but I thought it might belong on this thread to.

No one is honestly asking you to force your faith on someone. I am only asking that people acknowledge that charity work by itself is not evangelizing. That is just doing good works.

Evangelizing is both charity work and proclaiming reasons with words, but does not necessarily need to be done by the same person. If you feel that you are not cut out to proclaim, that is fine. But you cannot therefore conclude that the most effective method of evangelizing or what Jesus calls evangelizing is to just do charity work. There are others called and gifted to actually proclaim reasons to convert.

This does not mean you are off the hook either. You must be prepared to give reasons for your faith if God gives you the opportunity.

but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an account of the hope that is in you; – 1 Peter 3:15

 

[McCall1981]

This does not mean you are off the hook either. You must be prepared to give reasons for your faith if God gives you the opportunity.

This is true, but in the moment I never feel like like Im very good at sharing the faith. I think its particularly hard because, in my experience, people seem to want pithy, “sound bite” kinds of comments. Its like you should be able to explain any theological idea or moral teaching in one snappy comment, and if you cant it means your point is wrong. I always wish I could say, “dont take it from me, read this book by this saint who says it so much more beautifully than I do”.

 

[Eufrosnia]

This is true, but in the moment I never feel like like Im very good at sharing the faith. I think its particularly hard because, in my experience, people seem to want pithy, “sound bite” kinds of comments. Its like you should be able to explain any theological idea or moral teaching in one snappy comment, and if you cant it means your point is wrong. I always wish I could say, “dont take it from me, read this book by this saint who says it so much more beautifully than I do”.

True say. But I think its more about trying our best rather than it actually being the best.

I don’t know if this will help you but I usually tend to side step continuous moral or theological questions by pointing out that even if I were to give answers that would make sense, it still does not mean that they should adopt Catholicism or reject their own faith. Me making sense would only mean that Catholicism is internally consistent. But that is not proof that it is true.

Then when they acknowledge it, I will move the discussion to the plane of how one should accept religious claims considering we cannot verify it ourselves. Then I reduce it to going by authority of the person proclaiming the truths. Then to what reasons we have to think the person authoritative etc.

Does it convert? Probably not immediately until they have thought about it. But it will at least halt the attack and give them something to think about and a good basis to discuss over.

 

[simple_soul]

I replied to your post on the other thread but I think its more appropriate if we continue here.
No one is honestly asking you to force your faith on someone. I am only asking that people acknowledge that charity work by itself is not evangelizing. That is just doing good works.

Evangelizing is both charity work and proclaiming reasons with words, but does not necessarily need to be done by the same person. If you feel that you are not cut out to proclaim, that is fine. But you cannot therefore conclude that the most effective method of evangelizing or what Jesus calls evangelizing is to just do charity work. There are others called and gifted to actually proclaim reasons to convert.

This does not mean you are off the hook either. You must be prepared to give reasons for your faith if God gives you the opportunity.

What you seem to be saying or trying to imply with all your posts is that every signal charitable act needs to have words along with it in order for it to be considered evangelization. If that were the case we would be talking non stop. I personally beleive we all should be doing charity works with words when necessary. In some ways this is almost what you are saying too but then you say something that makes me beleive that you are actually just trying to find a way to say that those who choose to only use words when necessary are not using enough words and are therefor not really evagelizing.

but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an account of the hope that is in you; – 1 Peter 3:15

Even this quote indicates that we have to be ** prepared** to use words when it is demanded/necsassery. I do not believe anyone one this thread or the other thread is trying to say anything different.

 

[simple_soul]

First of all, what is up with reducing the Blessed Mother to a person we should imitate? The Blessed Mother is the Queen of heaven, our mother, and the most powerful intercessor with Christ, her son.

What! I know she is the Queen of Heaven why else do you think I would ask her to help me follow her example of a virtuous and holy life?

As far as imitation is concerned, we can’t imitate her in the strict sense of the word. We can only imitate her obedience to the WILL of God. God wills all his people to do good deeds. He also wishes some to give others reasons using words to convert to Christianity. The will of God is not that we all just get along and do charity works with respect to evangelizing. The CCC itself makes that clear as Luky7 posted.

Evangelizing is not solely charity works or solely about giving reasons. It is the combination of it. But people today want to call charity work by itself as evangelizing. WHY?
Where has the Church taught that. Just cite one document where the Church says charity work by itself is evangelization or the most effective form of evangelization!

Again you seem to want to say that every act of charity needs to have words with it. If that were the case we would never stop talking.

 

[Lucky7]

This article was posted in Catholic News forum. The Pope talked about this very topic just yesterday. He said we must be "faithful to the Spirit, to proclaim Jesus with our lives, through our witness and our words.” Therefore, I thought it was extremely relevant (and whoa timely! lol) to this discussion:

ncregister.com/daily-news/without-evangelization-church-becomes-babysitter-pope-cautions/

 

[Lucky7]

I am not sure why this word is causing so much problems. Did JP II say “Do NOT proselytize?” If so, which Church document did he say this in?

Because Proselytize means to convert. Evangelize and Proselytize would therefore mean the same thing anyway. So if JP II said evangelize, it also means that he said Proselytize.

Honestly, I think evangelize is the PC word for proselytize. It doesn’t sound so in your face. When we think proselytize we think “bible thumper”. Evangelize is much softer, but yes, I think they mean the same thing. But like I said earlier, so many think that the Catholic Church no longer wishes to convert anyone (they will often say “since vatican II” I might add…another issue with its implementation).

I have posted on this before, but I happen to think the various ecumenical moves have contributed to this error in thinking as well. It would be one thing if the Church made these ecumenical moves along with talk about the Catholic Faith being the fullness of the Truth and the only sure way to Heaven. But we haven’t.

I will say that I was glad to see one of Pope Francis’ daily homilies a couple of weeks ago talk about how you MUST believe in Christ for salvation, not psychics, etc. That was at daily mass though. Most people never hear about those homilies. Perhaps with his most recent homily about boldly evangleizing with words and actions (my last post), he will proclaim this more than we have seen in the recent past.

 

[simple_soul]

Honestly, I think evangelize is the PC word for proselytize. It doesn’t sound so in your face. When we think proselytize we think “bible thumper”. Evangelize is much softer, but yes, I think they mean the same thing. But like I said earlier, so many think that the Catholic Church no longer wishes to convert anyone (they will often say “since vatican II” I might add…another issue with its implementation).

I have posted on this before, but I happen to think the various ecumenical moves have contributed to this error in thinking as well. It would be one thing if the Church made these ecumenical moves along with talk about the Catholic Faith being the fullness of the Truth and the only sure way to Heaven. But we haven’t.

I will say that I was glad to see one of Pope Francis’ daily homilies a couple of weeks ago talk about how you MUST believe in Christ for salvation, not psychics, etc. That was at daily mass though. Most people never hear about those homilies. Perhaps with his most recent homily about boldly evangleizing with words and actions (my last post), he will proclaim this more than we have seen in the recent past.

Thank you Lucky for sharring the link. It is timely… Just a quick note though on what you said here. I do not beleive the Pope used the word psychics. He said “fortune tellers” and “tarot card readers.” Personally I beleive a lot of people who claim to be fortune tellers and tarot card readers in a lot of cases are not really psychic at all and are just pretending to be. But what constitutes one to be a psychic or not is I beleive a discussion for another thread. Just wanted to clarify what the Pope actually said.

As to the word “proselytizing” I looked up the definition of it and evangelization. There are subtle differences between the words. Even though I will have to ponder those differences because I can not adequately explain them I know the church knows what those differences are and I beleive we should follow her lead and use the word Evangelize instead of Proselytize.

 

[simple_soul]

Another thought I just had that might explain better what I beleive Pope Francis may be trying to tell us is that it takes more than just words and actions to evangelize. We have to take the transforming Love and Mercy of God to these people through our words and actions. In order for us to do this we have to be transformed by God’s Love and Mercy. If we ourselves are not transformed so that Jesus’ Love and Mercy can touch others through our every thought, word and action then we are not evangelizing we are proselytizing. Hhhmmm will have to ponder this some more.