prostition

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freesoulhope

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A muslim women( a freind of mine) once said to me, if women is starving and her kids are starving, then its okay for a women to sell her body. I refused to except this, it doesnt make any sense?
another muslim freind said that if you are in a bad situation that would require you to lie or face death, then lying is okay. I dont know if it is there religion or thier ignorance that fails them, or even my ignorance that fails me. but what there religion would say, thats not what worrys me so much. what i want to Know is, are these thing true in christianity, and does sin becomes less or veniel due to circumstance.
 
Too many people like to say things are okay because it isn’t a moral sin. Using an analogy a mortal sin is a death blow to your soul, a venial sin is just like chopping off your arm. Both are bad for you. (Mortal sins can be forgiven if repentance is sought, this is an anology after all.) But by definition mortal sin literally means deadly!

Some sins are more serious, more grave, than others. I dont know if that translates into “more venial” or not, I just don’t know enough.

In any case for a sin to be so deadly it must have the qualites of
  • grave matter
  • full knowledge
  • complete consent
See the Catechism 1858, and 1859 for more detials.
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/gravity.html#GRAVITY

I am no theologan but the Catechism says, “It [full consent] also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice.” (CCCC 1734)

So from my understanding is if you are forced to do something that it is still a sin and should be avoided by all means possible, even up to the point of willing to give up your life, but it may not be enough to loose salvation should you die shortly afterwards.

Edit: My thoughts concern like being forced to kill someone, etc. I havn’t thought through prostitution and stuff. Now prostiution is an ongoing choice that becomes a way of life, making it much different than like being forced to lie or whatever. But it is also a sin against hope, that God will provide, if you are in desperate needs. Of course from my comfortable temerature controlled room on a full stomach its a lot easier for me to say that.
 
Peace be with you!

Prostitution would still be gravely sinful even if a woman thinks (that’s the key word here) she has no other way to make money. If it’s a case where someone is kidnapped and forced to do this, like what happens in Asia, then it wouldn’t be a sin for them because they are being forced against their will. If they choose to do it, then they are doing exactly that: choosing.

In Christ,
Rand
 
**

CCCC 2355 said:
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Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit. Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.) While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.
 
freesoulhope:

Prostitution: No it’s not ok and shows a lack of trust in God through prayer while making a effort in finding a solution. “What father would give a man a snake when he asks for a fish”.

Lieing: Depends on circumstances. To save life Ok.

Andy
 
I don’t think lying or prostitution would ever be okay…no matter the circumstances.

I remember reading “The Hiding Place” years ago, it’s the story of Corrie Tenbaum (sp?) and her sister Betsy. They hid Jews from the Nazis. Betsy would never lie about anything, she knew it was a sin. One time when the Nazis came looking for Jews they directly asked Betsy where they were hiding. She told them. She said they were in a hiding place under the kitchen table. The Nazis laughed at her and never looked there because they assumed she was lying.

I always think of this…sometimes a lie may seem like a good idea, but we can’t know the ultimate outcome. We only have to trust God and know that He knows the outcome!
 
I’m not convinced that prostitution is always gravely sinful. How could a female, under desperate, crushing poverty, maybe with children to care for, having no skills, possibly have complete consent? How could anyone ever have full consent while watching your children starve? Who wouldn’t do anything to relieve the suffering?

No, I propose that there are circumstances, under which prostitution is not sinful.
 
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jebojora:
I don’t think lying or prostitution would ever be okay…no matter the circumstances.

I remember reading “The Hiding Place” years ago, it’s the story of Corrie Tenbaum (sp?) and her sister Betsy. They hid Jews from the Nazis. Betsy would never lie about anything, she knew it was a sin. One time when the Nazis came looking for Jews they directly asked Betsy where they were hiding. She told them. She said they were in a hiding place under the kitchen table. The Nazis laughed at her and never looked there because they assumed she was lying.

I always think of this…sometimes a lie may seem like a good idea, but we can’t know the ultimate outcome. We only have to trust God and know that He knows the outcome!
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I see it differently.

The devil was more interested in getting her to sell out her friends, and he succeeded.

Andy
 
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cargopilot:
I’m not convinced that prostitution is always gravely sinful. How could a female, under desperate, crushing poverty, maybe with children to care for, having no skills, possibly have complete consent? How could anyone ever have full consent while watching your children starve? Who wouldn’t do anything to relieve the suffering?

No, I propose that there are circumstances, under which prostitution is not sinful.
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Well, yeah, I guess this would be too much for God to handle. After all, just because he can bring back life to a rotting corpse in front of hundreds, that pails by comparison to this REAL problem.

Being Catholic means we believe and we have the obligation to spread the,…and here’s that strange word again…Faith.

Andy
 
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AndyF:
I see it differently.

The devil was more interested in getting her to sell out her friends, and he succeeded.

Andy
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I don’t see it that way at all. God protected her friends. It comes down to a real test of faith…do we believe that God has an ultimate plan or not? Death is not the most horrible thing that can happen to a person…losing your soul is. To die as a martyr is better than lying and distancing your soul from God.

Please understand, I am not saying I could be that person…I am weak and would most likely lie…but that doesn’t stop me from seeing that I would be making the poorer choice. I pray to God I am never in a situation where I have to make that choice!
 
Yes it does seem that one day we all might have to choose between are faith and death lets hope and prey that we make the right choice! god bless 😉
 
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jebojora:
I don’t see it that way at all. God protected her friends. It comes down to a real test of faith…do we believe that God has an ultimate plan or not? Death is not the most horrible thing that can happen to a person…losing your soul is. To die as a martyr is better than lying and distancing your soul from God.

Please understand, I am not saying I could be that person…I am weak and would most likely lie…but that doesn’t stop me from seeing that I would be making the poorer choice. I pray to God I am never in a situation where I have to make that choice!
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I see her as being quite weak and overly scrupulous. I would not lie, but I sure as heck would not tell Nazi guards where innocent people were if they asked me. I would hope to keep my mouth shut. If they started torturing me or something, I would pray to God that I would not tell them anything under duress. Who knows if I would be successful, but I surely would not want that on my conscience.
 
i understand where your coming from. i would also rather stay silent. i fear that the young girl gave up the jews to save her life. the fact that she told the truth, did not help the jews. it was the mercy of god that saved them. she could have easly have been silent. a lie in these circumstances i feel , would have been a veniel sin, not a motal one. If lives are on the line then maybe its more better that you risk dying. but i dont blame the girl for giving up the jews, she simply feared losing her life, her desison to tell the truth strangly ended up in them being saved, but her desion could have cost the lives of those jews, so who’s right? was it the will of god that made her tell the truth, who’s wrong? i leave it up to you, what would you do in that situation?. 🙂
 
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BillyT92679:
I see her as being quite weak and overly scrupulous. I would not lie, but I sure as heck would not tell Nazi guards where innocent people were if they asked me. I would hope to keep my mouth shut. If they started torturing me or something, I would pray to God that I would not tell them anything under duress. Who knows if I would be successful, but I surely would not want that on my conscience.
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I guess I’m not making my point. First of all this already happened and the guards did not find the hidden Jews. God protected them…I see this as significant. If she had lied perhaps they would have found the Jews…because they would have looked under the table. They didn’t look there **because **she told the truth and they didn’t believe her. She completely trusted God.

Also, I read this book over 30 years ago…so I’m sure there was more to the story. I don’t remember exactly what the Nazis said etc. etc. I just remembered that she would not lie.

I cannot even begin to know what I would do in that situation. I didn’t get the impression that she was being pious and righteous. The book was written by her sister and In the book Betsy was seen as very humble person who loved the Lord. Both women ended up in a concentration camp because they were hiding Jews. Besty spent her last days encouraging others to love God even in the horrible conditions they lived. She gave her food away to those who were weak, even though she herself was weak. She eventually died in the concentration camp, her sister said that when she saw Betsy’s body, naked, thin from starvation, laying with others, that even then she looked peaceful and radiant. She never hated her abusers and she never blamed or cursed God.

The point I’m trying to make is that we make decisions to lie because we think WE control the outcome. We don’t. When you lie you may cause other problems that you didn’t forsee.
 
you have penetrated my heart with the truth of god, you are right, its because she trusted in god, that both her and the jews where spared. some times we lack faith in gods ability to control situations because of are fear that god wouldnt act. some of us give are selfs to human pride and street code. loyalty to human beings rather then god is dangerous. i hope that i will be strong enough to tell the truth when the time comes. but its hard to agree to hide people from killer nazis, and then give them up in faith. that if thats what she intended
 
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freesoulhope:
i understand where your coming from. i would also rather stay silent. i fear that the young girl gave up the jews to save her life. the fact that she told the truth, did not help the jews. it was the mercy of god that saved them. she could have easly have been silent. a lie in these circumstances i feel , would have been a veniel sin, not a motal one. If lives are on the line then maybe its more better that you risk dying. but i dont blame the girl for giving up the jews, she simply feared losing her life, her desison to tell the truth strangly ended up in them being saved, but her desion could have cost the lives of those jews, so who’s right? was it the will of god that made her tell the truth, who’s wrong? i leave it up to you, what would you do in that situation?. 🙂
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I guess you all didn’t read it…she didn’t give them up. They didn’t find them. The possibility exists that they might have found them if she had lied. So in situations where we lie and things go badly anyway…how do we know that if we hadn’t lied and had instead trusted the Lord, that things would have turned out better?? We don’t becasue we already hopped in the driver seat by lying.

Also…again…I just gave you the gist of the incident as I remember it. I was about 15 when I read that book…and haven’t read it since. I’m sure the entire scene had a lot more details to it. I was just impressed that she understood and trusted God so implicitly. I can only hope that I might have that type of faith one day.
 
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freesoulhope:
That is a great awnser, yes, its likley the holy spirit told her to tell the truth, since god knows what was gonna happen. but if they did find them, would we feel the same about her. if she was silent and they found them, would have that been a sin? maybe i should just except that god does what he needs to do. but telling the truth with out the intevention of god may have brought darkness upon the jews. but then again maybe god saw that her heart was true therfore he saved them. who am i to jurdge. maybe there is no exceptions or excuses.
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freesoulhope, it looks like we’re posting in the wrong sequence! 🙂
I think you understand what I’m saying. My thought is just that trusting God cannot be wrong…ever. I do not remember if she had the option to be silent. I’m sure it was a frightenting situation. I’m sure the Nazis weren’t asking her where the Jews were why they all sipped tea together. I’m sure they were being terroized.
 
We are actually discussing moral actions in class. There are six questions, under three catergories, you have to consider to decide if it’s moral. The moral objective- What are you doing? Circumstances(not all always apply)- Who is doing it? When are they doing it? Where are they doing it? How are they going about it? Intention- Why are they doing it?

In the case of prostitution, the what on it’s own would seem wrong. The why is to save her own life, and the life of her children which on it’s own seems good. The circumstances have already been given.

I’m not suggesting that if you are starving you take up prostitution, but I think if you did make that decision to save your children, your responsibility would be lessened, and it would not be a mortal sin. We have to accept that God does not always save every person in the way they see fit. Otherwise no babies would die from abortion. People who trust God do die.
 
Thats real! That was what i was wondering. i mean obviously God doesnt want us to sin, but if its not in your heart to, and, lets say hunger forces you to steal because you wish not to die, i was thinking maybe it would be a lesser sin then if your where in a reasonable position, and you did it to for fill a desire for sake of it, because it is in your heart to do such things. do you no what i mean? is that a right interpretation
 
I understand what you all are saying, and I agree, but I think it’s a very human take on it.

When people were looting after Hurricane Katrina…we all agreed that if they were stealing food, medicine and necessities that we could understand that and even condone it. But the people stealing plasma televisions and mp3 players…well they were just plain thiefs.

I’m just not sure that God is on board with our point of view. We are called away from this world. Be in the world, not of it. The idea that I would steal to keep myself alive, or my children…is a given. I would. Does that make it okay? I don’t know. It makes it okay in my eyes…but I’m a weak, sinful human being. I do not have the mind of God, nor the perfection to understand such things. That is why we have confession, baptism, Eucharist and Purgatory. We do not understand the beautiful and perfect workings of the Lord. So, it only makes me all the more thankful for his great love and mercy.
 
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