Either way protestants deny the real presense which the ECF and the bible were very clear on. Anytime the ECF talked about scripture alone it was always in referral to the gnostic heresys and how it must be done with Catholic interperatation and within the Church… The ECF were very clear about interperatation of scripture by oneself leads to heresy and confusion, even as early as the 1st Century(Igantius and Iraeneus)I would suggest that what say was unheard of had indeed been referred to in the early church fathers.
The truth doesn’t change. The fact that Mormon doctrine (and even what gets doctrinal status) not only changes, but often, is a good indicator it’s not the truth. He had a very valid concern and question. Why does Mormon doctrine change so much if it is the one truth?You are too far out my friend. That is not worth wasting my time on.
zerinus
Mormon doctrtine does not change. Mormonism is true.The truth doesn’t change. The fact that Mormon doctrine (and even what gets doctrinal status) not only changes, but often, is a good indicator it’s not the truth. He had a very valid concern and question. Why does Mormon doctrine change so much if it is the one truth?
That is only a reflection of your true charecter. You must have been looking at the mirror when you said that.I believe it’s because it’s a load of manure myself.
Allweather,
That he also said this.Just what is it about "For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation" that is not clear to you?
The only people who see contradictions in the wrtings of the CF are those who are claiming they said things they didnt
So one place he says faith and works. Others he says faith only. Or are you saying New Advent has put up something he didn’t write? Who knows then what he really thought.See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only. John Chrysostom (Homilies on Romans, 7, v. 27)
Everyone knows that good fruit comes from a good tree. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, neither can a good tree bring forth evil fruit. If the fruit is good, that means the tree must be good. The goodness of the lives of Mormons comes form the virtue of their faith:Indeed, I do… I’ve been down Fundamentalist Lane myself, LOL.
Sorry if I came across as critical. Lately I’m trying to see the human side of Mormonism by focusing on the people rather than some of the strange items. I’ve been reading biographical materials from here and there. Gives me an appreciation for the individuals who built the religion. I think most of them meant well.
You are one of the “apologists” who haunt Mormon Q&A on AOL aren’t you? The venomous attitude seems very familiar.Mormon doctrtine does not change. Mormonism is true.
That is only a reflection of your true charecter. You must have been looking at the mirror when you said that.
zerinus
Good ridance.You are one of the “apologists” who haunt Mormon Q&A on AOL aren’t you? The venomous attitude seems very familiar.
Since I have better things to do than listen to personal attacks from you, I’ll let any number of other people here cover the ever changing Mormon doctrine.
so what type of fruit does the catholic tree bear?Everyone knows that good fruit comes from a good tree. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, neither can a good tree bring forth evil fruit. If the fruit is good, that means the tree must be good. The goodness of the lives of Mormons comes form the virtue of their faith:
Matthew 7:
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 12:
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
zerinus
Allweather,And, out of that Protestant set-up arose the sects and cults of the 19th century, of which Mormonism is only one among many.
I do not know the majority of faiths in this forum, I for one am a Protestant who is very interested in becoming Catholic, and I think this discussion is very interesting. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, and this has been told to me by a Mormon very high in his church. They have very different beliefs from us Protestants and the Catholics and are not considered to be in communion with the Christian Church, While some Mormons are very nice and hard working, etc, so are many atheists, but that does not make them candidates for Heaven.In fairness to the Mormons, these descriptions aren’t exactly true. They don’t deny the Trinity, they simply have a different take on it than Christians do. They don’t deny the deity of Christ (AFAIK) but rather consider him to be a separate being, and even a lesser god than the Father. Mormons are polytheists, but generally avoid use of that term, preferring instead to use the term “plurality of gods” to describe how they see things. Also, they don’t necessarily set themselves to be gods but rather say that they “may” become gods if they do all that they’re commanded to do by the religion. Obviously not all Mormons are equally good Mormons.
We need to be careful about stating as fact what only God knows for sure. I’d be really, really surprised to find that no Mormons went to heaven. Most Mormons are absolutely delightful, honest, hardworking, loving, decent people. Frankly, a few of the ones I know are a lot nicer than I am. Some may be deceitful in the promoting of their religion, but I believe that most are doing what they think is right. That would put them into alignment with Jesus, I think.
My my, what a sweet and loving thing to say.Good ridance.
zerinus
I know a few of both… that is, Mormons, and atheists. Actually, I’m not sure there IS such a thing as an atheist, so let’s just say I know a whole BUNCH of people who just don’t pay God any attention at all. If I’m comparing the two types of people, I’m absolutely certain that the Mormons will be the moral kings of the comparison.I do not know the majority of faiths in this forum, I for one am a Protestant who is very interested in becoming Catholic, and I think this discussion is very interesting. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, and this has been told to me by a Mormon very high in his church. They have very different beliefs from us Protestants and the Catholics and are not considered to be in communion with the Christian Church, While some Mormons are very nice and hard working, etc, so are many atheists, but that does not make them candidates for Heaven.
I’m no historian, just a hobby reader. Seems to me that East West Schism of the 11th century had a lot to do with cultural splits that had already taken place long before. The Empire had been politically divided, and there’d been an animosity between east and west over non-religious issues. In any case, AFAIK that schism didn’t directly lead to any major diminishing of Catholic faith. Both east and west continued with nearly identical doctrines and liturgies, and still do, each having valid orders, but slightly different views of authority.Allweather,
I sure wish I could disagree with you, but there has been quite a stir, hasn’t there. Of course, none are immune when churches are filled with humanity. The world is still realing from the split of east v. west created the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. I am so glad to see efforts being made today to start addressing the rift that happended so many centuries ago.
I think the beginning of the secularization is a lot further back than just the last couple of decades. I think it was well under way by the time of the American Revolution, and really picked up pace during the 19th century, with the progressive dismantling of the old monarchies, industrialization, liberalization of the mainline Protestant denominations, etc. After all, Marx and Hitler were both 19th century men, and for that matter so was Darwin.What I find the most disturbing is the secularization that we have all fallen victim to in the last couple decades. Tragic. Whole denominations have fallen to it and your Popes have had to spend a great deal of time battling it within your parishes. Europe has all but become atheist and the U.S. is not far behind. Satan is desperate and it will only get worse as long as people insist on sitting on the fence.