Protestanst follow tradition when it suits

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This is an excellent article in an excellent website (mainly Mark Shea) that highlights how protestants pick and choose the instances when tradition is acceptable, when it is rejectable and when things must be in scripture. I recommend it to all.

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/markshea/sheavings/86.asp
Hi Tim,
One could argue that the CC, in the opposite direction, simply “develops” Tradition further to its own liking.
I think the writer, however, makes a good point, and it is something I have thought much about in my discussions here: we should move very slowly and cautiously before even being critical of teachings that have been held by both East and West from the time of the early councils.
For example, invocation of the saints and the Blessed Virgin has been practiced, both East and West, since long before the schism. While there is no command or promise in scripture for the practice, it seems we should be at least reluctant to condemn a long-held universal practice that millions of fellow Christians have found comfort in. By the same token, to require a belief in such a practice, seems equally questionable because it does lack a command or promise in scripture.

Jon
 
Hi Tim,
One could argue that the CC, in the opposite direction, simply “develops” Tradition further to its own liking.
I think the writer, however, makes a good point, and it is something I have thought much about in my discussions here: we should move very slowly and cautiously before even being critical of teachings that have been held by both East and West from the time of the early councils.
For example, invocation of the saints and the Blessed Virgin has been practiced, both East and West, since long before the schism. While there is no command or promise in scripture for the practice, it seems we should be at least reluctant to condemn a long-held universal practice that millions of fellow Christians have found comfort in. By the same token, to require a belief in such a practice, seems equally questionable because it does lack a command or promise in scripture.

Jon
One could argue that the CC, in the opposite direction, simply “develops” Tradition further to its own liking.
Blessings Jon! May you please elaborate or give an example where the church 'develops" Tradition to its own liking?
 
Blessings Jon! May you please elaborate or give an example where the church 'develops" Tradition to its own liking?
And blessings also with you.

Well, I’ve been told here often that the doctrine of the Church doesn’t change, but does develop as time goes on. You would probably more have examples of that than I do, as by your posts you seem a knowledgeable Catholic, but may I suggest Tranbsubstantiation as a development of the doctrine of the real presence?

My real reason for mentioning that possible criticism was a response to the OP’s title, the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Jon
 
And blessings also with you.

Well, I’ve been told here often that the doctrine of the Church doesn’t change, but does develop as time goes on. You would probably more have examples of that than I do, as by your posts you seem a knowledgeable Catholic, but may I suggest Tranbsubstantiation as a development of the doctrine of the real presence?

My real reason for mentioning that possible criticism was a response to the OP’s title, the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Jon
Well [T]radition and doctrine go hand in hand,unless you disagree? Notice I used an upper case T and not lower case t. This is where many stumble to make a distinction.

Yes as Catholics/Orthodoxs we believe that doctrine does develop over time,better known as doctrinal development (i.e., Trinity,Incarnation,Canon,infallibility,etc) Unfortunately,many have a profound understanding of doctrinal development an automatically equate it into ‘invention’ by the Catholic Church (RCC/Orthodox). Not true at all. Case in point, the Trinity. Jehovah Witnesses claim the RCC ‘invented’ the doctrine at Nicaea in 325 A.D. Not true at all.

It was always taught from the beginning by the Apostles, Christ is Jesus through Apostolic Tradition and later implicitly defined by scripture.Hence,both were used Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition to officially define the doctrine of the Trinity,although it took over 300 years.Same for the Incarnation,canon of scripture and etc.

We both know it was not ‘invented’ but simply defined and made official. Doctrines are defined and made official simply when issues arise or it is being challenged as in the case of the Arians against Christ Divinity.

Hope this helped out?

Peace brother in Christ.🙂
 
Yeah, it does. I should have pointed this out in my first response to you, but my comment
simply “develops” Tradition further to its own liking” does not represent what I think, but as I said was a response to Tim’s title. It was intentionally polemic to point out that questioning motives, implied in both his title and my comment, does not further the cause of unity. I am bound by the 8th commendment to assume that the intentions of the Magisterium and Pope are honest and not deceitful, and I believe that to be true.
=Nicea325;6774555]Well [T]radition and doctrine go hand in hand,unless you disagree? Notice I used an upper case T and not lower case t. This is where many stumble to make a distinction.
I actually don’t disagree.
Yes as Catholics/Orthodoxs we believe that doctrine does develop over time,better known as doctrinal development (i.e., Trinity,Incarnation,Canon,infallibility,etc) Unfortunately,many have a profound **understanding **of doctrinal development an automatically equate it into ‘invention’ by the Catholic Church (RCC/Orthodox). Not true at all. Case in point, the Trinity. Jehovah Witnesses claim the RCC ‘invented’ the doctrine at Nicaea in 325 A.D. Not true at all.
I assume you meant here misunderstand.
It was always taught from the beginning by the Apostles, Christ is Jesus through Apostolic Tradition and later implicitly defined by scripture.Hence,both were used Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition to officially define the doctrine of the Trinity,although it took over 300 years.Same for the Incarnation,canon of scripture and etc.
We both know it was not ‘invented’ but simply defined and made official. Doctrines are defined and made official simply when issues arise or it is being challenged as in the case of the Arians against Christ Divinity.
I agree, and you know that Lutherans agree with theearly councils, such as Nicea.
Peace brother in Christ
And also with you.

Jon
 
Yeah, it does. I should have pointed this out in my first response to you, but my comment
“simply “develops” Tradition further to its own liking” does not represent what I think, but as I said was a response to Tim’s title. It was intentionally polemic to point out that questioning motives, implied in both his title and my comment, does not further the cause of unity. I am bound by the 8th commendment to assume that the intentions of the Magisterium and Pope are honest and not deceitful, and I believe that to be true.
Well taken and understood.

Quote:
=Nicea325;6774555]Well [T]radition and doctrine go hand in hand,unless you disagree? Notice I used an upper case T and not lower case t. This is where many stumble to make a distinction.
I actually don’t disagree.
Amen brother!

Quote:
Yes as Catholics/Orthodoxs we believe that doctrine does develop over time,better known as doctrinal development (i.e., Trinity,Incarnation,Canon,infallibility, etc) Unfortunately,many have a profound understanding of doctrinal development an automatically equate it into ‘invention’ by the Catholic Church (RCC/Orthodox). Not true at all. Case in point, the Trinity. Jehovah Witnesses claim the RCC ‘invented’ the doctrine at Nicaea in 325 A.D. Not true at all.
I assume you meant here misunderstand.
Oops! Yes I meant to say misunderstanding,thanks for noticing my spelling error.

Quote:
It was always taught from the beginning by the Apostles, Christ is Jesus through Apostolic Tradition and later implicitly defined by scripture.Hence,both were used Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition to officially define the doctrine of the Trinity,although it took over 300 years.Same for the Incarnation,canon of scripture and etc.

We both know it was not ‘invented’ but simply defined and made official. Doctrines are defined and made official simply when issues arise or it is being challenged as in the case of the Arians against Christ Divinity.
I agree, and you know that Lutherans agree with theearly councils, such as Nicea.
👍 I do not consider Lutherans as Protestants,although some Catholics do and anothers. I do not,way to much in common. BTW: What is your take on the ELCA allowing openly gays to be priests? If I am incorrect about the spelling: ELCA,please correct me.

Quote:
Peace brother in Christ
And also with you.
Peace 🙂
Jon
 
I don’t get it. What’s wrong with respecting tradition, while using scripture, reason and experience to define its place? Yes, of course tradition should be followed when it suits those other considerations, and not when it doesn’t.

Btw, I am “Protestant” only in that I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox (however, I am both catholic and orthodox ;)), though I respect both and think there are some bits of theology they have more right than we “Protestants” do.
 
. BTW: What is your take on the ELCA allowing openly gays to be priests? If I am incorrect about the spelling: ELCA,please correct me.
Hi Nicea,
You have it right, ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).
I am incredibly disappointed and heartbroken that my old synod made this move. It is in violation of scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. My dad was an ELCA pastor, and I know the pain it would cause him were he still alive. I still have family in the ELCA, though my mom resigned her membership. There are still many confessional Lutherans in the ELCA, and they need our prayers and support.

Jon
 
Hi Nicea,
You have it right, ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).
I am incredibly disappointed and heartbroken that my old synod made this move. It is in violation of scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. My dad was an ELCA pastor, and I know the pain it would cause him were he still alive. I still have family in the ELCA, though my mom resigned her membership. There are still many confessional Lutherans in the ELCA, and they need our prayers and support.

Jon
Jon,

As an ELCA pastor, I am deeply troubled with the actions of last year’s Church-wide Assembly. At this point, I am not ready to leave the ELCA but I will be a continuing voice of opposition to what has taken place. Above all, I plan to continue to teach and preach in accordance with the historic teachings of the church on matters of sexuality. I take heart in knowing that I am not alone in this but it will not be the easiest of paths to follow.
 
Jon,

As an ELCA pastor, I am deeply troubled with the actions of last year’s Church-wide Assembly. At this point, I am not ready to leave the ELCA but I will be a continuing voice of opposition to what has taken place. Above all, I plan to continue to teach and preach in accordance with the historic teachings of the church on matters of sexuality. I take heart in knowing that I am not alone in this but it will not be the easiest of paths to follow.
Pastor,
I have confidence that the Holy Spirit will use you and people like you to bring the ELCA back to orthodox confessional Lutheranism. May He bless and strengthen you for the road ahead.

Jon
 
Hi Nicea,
You have it right, ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).
I am incredibly disappointed and heartbroken that my old synod made this move. It is in violation of scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. My dad was an ELCA pastor, and I know the pain it would cause him were he still alive. I still have family in the ELCA, though my mom resigned her membership. There are still many confessional Lutherans in the ELCA, and they need our prayers and support.

Jon
I can only imagine what many Lutherans felt. I was very shocked to read it in a local newspaper here in So.Cal. It also breaks my heart,because instead of trying to close the gaps,which separates so many Christians,it only opens more can of worms and creates more wounds. You have all of my prayers and the entire Lutheran faithful community.

And trust me, it hurts me a lot as a Roman Catholic Church to know the church failed so many times to take action against those who abused children. I work for a local parish as the Director of Catechesis and many dioceses have implemented many preventive measures and all volunteers who work with children must be finger printed and complete several mandatory courses in regards to the protection of children. ABOUT TIME!
 
Jon,

As an ELCA pastor, I am deeply troubled with the actions of last year’s Church-wide Assembly. At this point, I am not ready to leave the ELCA but I will be a continuing voice of opposition to what has taken place. Above all, I plan to continue to teach and preach in accordance with the historic teachings of the church on matters of sexuality. I take heart in knowing that I am not alone in this but it will not be the easiest of paths to follow.
Well if the Lutherans would just come home…… 😃
 
Post is too long but here is some -

Council of Rome (382)
Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Hippo (393)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Carthage (397)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405)
Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Carthage (419)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441)
Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent

Council of Trent, an ecumenical council called to respond to the heresy of the Reformers (1545-1563)
The canon of OT and NT received final definitions: 46 books in the OT; 27 in the NT; “Henceforth the books of the OT and the NT, protocanonical and deuterocanonical alike, in their entirety and with all their parts, comprise the canon and are held to be of equal authority.” The ancient Vulgate edition of the Bible was called the authoritative edition of the Bible.

Vatican I Council (1869-1870)
Reaffirmed the decree of Trent. The Church holds the books of Holy Scripture as sacred and canonical, not because she subsequently approved them, nor because they contain revelation without error, but precisely because “having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself.”

Providentissimus Deus (1893), Pope Leo XIII, Bishop of Rome, 1878-1903
Inaugurated a new era in Roman Catholic biblical studies. Presented a plan for biblical study; Defined inspiration: “By supernatural power God so moved and impelled the human authors to write - he so assisted them in writing - that the things he ordered and those only they first rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth.”

Pascendi Dominica Gregis (1907), Pope Pius X, Bishop of Rome, 1903-1914
Refuted the errors of the Modernists; Scored erroneous teaching on the origin and nature of the Sacred Books, on inspiration; on the distinction between the purely human Christ of history and the divine Christ of faith; on the origin and growth of the Scriptures.

Spiritus Paraclitus (1920), Pope Benedict XV, Bishop of Rome, 1914-1922
Commends modern critical methods in biblical studies. All biblical interpretation rests upon the literal sense. Goal of biblical studies is to learn spiritual perfection, to arm oneself to defend the faith, to preach the word of God fruitfully.

Divino Afflante Spiritus (1943), Pope Pius XII, Bishop of Rome, 1939-1958
Permitted scholars to use original text of Scriptures. No claim was made that the Vulgate is always an accurate translation, but that it is free from any errors in faith or morals. The scholar must be principally concerned with the literal sense of the Scriptures; search out and expound the spiritual sense; avoid other figurative senses. Literary criticism should be employed. Stated that there are but few texts whose sense was determined by the authority of the Church (only seven biblical passages have been definitively interpreted in defending traditional doctrine and morals–Jn 3:5, Lk 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24, Jn 20:22, Jn 20:23, Rom 5:12, Ja 5: 14); this counteracts the frequent misunderstanding that Catholics have no freedom interpreting the Scriptures.

Humani Generis (1950), Pope Pius XII, Bishop of Rome, 1939 - 1958
Instructs scholars on evolution, polygenism and OT historical narratives

Vatican II Council (1962-1965)
The decree, On Divine Revelation, declares that there is one source of Divine Revelation, Jesus Christ; that there are two modes of handing on revelation: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition : “in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end,” and “it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything that has been revealed.” Concerning Inerrancy of Scripture: "The Books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation. "Emphasized that “in order to see what God wanted to communicate in Scripture, we must investigate the intention of the sacred author, and one way to do this is by paying attention to the literary form employed by the sacred writer.”

In the Catholic Church this is the definition of TRADITION.
“TRADITION: The living transmission of the message of the Gospel in the Church. The oral preaching of the Apostles, and the written message of salvation under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Bible), are conserved and handed on as the deposit of faith through the apostolic succession in the Church. Both the living Tradition and the written Scriptures have their common source in the revelation of God in Jesus Christ (75-82). The theological, liturgical, disciplinary, and devotional traditions of the local churches both contain and can be distinguished from this apostolic Tradition (83).”
CCC 2nd Ed - Glossary
 
Well if the Lutherans would just come home…… 😃
I know, Wm, from the emoticon, that you meant this in fun, but in all seriousness, I believe many on both sides are working hard for reconciliation. I also know you pray for it, as I do.

Jon
 
I can only imagine what many Lutherans felt. I was very shocked to read it in a local newspaper here in So.Cal. It also breaks my heart,because instead of trying to close the gaps,which separates so many Christians,it only opens more can of worms and creates more wounds. You have all of my prayers and the entire Lutheran faithful community.

And trust me, it hurts me a lot as a Roman Catholic Church to know the church failed so many times to take action against those who abused children. I work for a local parish as the Director of Catechesis and many dioceses have implemented many preventive measures and all volunteers who work with children must be finger printed and complete several mandatory courses in regards to the protection of children. ABOUT TIME!
For all have sinned and fall short of the golry of God. One of the things we share is the need for repentence and forgiveness.

Jon
 
For all have sinned and fall short of the golry of God. One of the things we share is the need for repentence and forgiveness.

Jon
That is for sure! Repent and forgive…amen!

Hey quick question? Is the Lutheran church very divided? Or is it more based on some congregations being conservative and others liberals? Reason I ask is because a few years ago I had two Lutheran gentlemen paint my office and both said their own congregations differed. One said his congregation was more liberal,while the other said his was much more conservative. What makes them differ?

Any information to get a better understanding would be much appreciated.

God Bless my brother in Christ.
 
That is for sure! Repent and forgive…amen!

Hey quick question? Is the Lutheran church very divided? Or is it more based on some congregations being conservative and others liberals? Reason I ask is because a few years ago I had two Lutheran gentlemen paint my office and both said their own congregations differed. One said his congregation was more liberal,while the other said his was much more conservative. What makes them differ?

Any information to get a better understanding would be much appreciated.

God Bless my brother in Christ.
I’ll PM you.

Jon
 
I know, Wm, from the emoticon, that you meant this in fun, but in all seriousness, I believe many on both sides are working hard for reconciliation. I also know you pray for it, as I do.

Jon
Jon I knew you would see it for the levity that I meant. Absolutely, I pray that we will see it in our life time.
 
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