Protestansts, If God judges the quality of our imperfect faith for justificaion, then why cant this be true of works?

[PeterGStanley]

Tell me I’m wrong but reading Pauls letters he is talking about working the law of Moses or the law of the prophets without Faith in Jesus Christ - it was a big problem in the early church of some Jews that said the law was required and Paul explained that it was not by the Law but by Faith they were saved - circumcision being one that they demanded - am I wrong about that. Also if we believe in Christ and have been baptized we have the Holy Spirit which guilds us to do good works unless we are doing it for our own glory which is pretty obvious if we are praising our selves .I guess next time an opportunity comes up to help my fellow man such as feeding the poor , comforting the sick and so on I should just say no - its not needed and God won’t be displeased with me because it by faith alone I’m saved and I’m wasting my time! Just worry about myself - pure selfishness - no chance of me believing that - you should be compelled by your faith to do good works and by the Holy Spirit and if you ignore it then I believe you are not doing Gods obvious will. Its taking one line or one word out of context of what the real letters intended to convey.Some how protestants believe we are doing it for our own glory and we simply are not - we do it because its Gods will and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonNC]

Tell me I’m wrong but reading Pauls letters he is talking about working the law of Moses or the law of the prophets without Faith in Jesus Christ - it was a big problem in the early church of some Jews that said the law was required and Paul explained that it was not by the Law but by Faith they were saved - circumcision being one that they demanded - am I wrong about that. Also if we believe in Christ and have been baptized we have the Holy Spirit which guilds us to do good works unless we are doing it for our own glory which is pretty obvious if we are praising our selves **.I guess next time an opportunity comes up to help my fellow man such as feeding the poor , comforting the sick and so on I should just say no - its not needed and God won’t be displeased with me because it by faith alone I’m saved and I’m wasting my time! **Just worry about myself - pure selfishness - no chance of me believing that - you should be compelled by your faith to do good works and by the Holy Spirit and if you ignore it then I believe you are not doing Gods obvious will. Its taking one line or one word out of context of what the real letters intended to convey.Some how protestants believe we are doing it for our own glory and we simply are not - we do it because its Gods will and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The bolded is exactly the opposite of Lutheran teaching.

Luther:

We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith

His commentary on Galatians 5:6

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

The Formula of Concord:

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Jon

 

[PeterGStanley]

Well the bold was meant to be sarcastic but if you want to take it seriously.

 

[JonNC]

Well the bold was meant to be sarcastic but if you want to take it seriously.

I know it was, and hyperbolic too. It just gave me the opportunity to respond, as some(both Portestant and Catholic) really do think that’s what sola fide means.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, all good things begin at justification.

In principle, I would agree with you, especially with regard to the Christian life. However, Jesus taught that good things occurred prior to Christianity, at creation.

Gen 1:26-31
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”…** And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.** And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

That’s made painfully obvious by your inability.

Please do not allow this to give you any pain, WCH. We are not given the ability to understand or explain all the mysteries of God because we don’t need it! This can be accepted by us with great joy, and not pain.

1 Cor 4:1
:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

We are to be good stewards of the mysteries, and keep them faithfully, even if we cannot always explain them.

When you’re able to explain your position concerning baptism from scripture, let me know.

I have been able to do this for many years, WCH. However, I am not sure it will be of much use to you, if you think that a pickle is substantially the same as a cucumber.

 

[guanophore]

Tell me I’m wrong but reading Pauls letters he is talking about working the law of Moses or the law of the prophets without Faith in Jesus Christ - it was a big problem in the early church of some Jews that said the law was required and Paul explained that it was not by the Law but by Faith they were saved - circumcision being one that they demanded - am I wrong about that.

No.

Also if we believe in Christ  and have been baptized we have the Holy Spirit which guilds us to do good works unless we are doing it for our own glory which is pretty obvious if we are praising our selves .

There is no such thing as a perfectly pure motive. By our nature, there are always selfish reasons for our choices. That does not mean God cannot work good through us.

Just worry about myself - pure selfishness -

Just worrying about oneself is not pure selfishness either. I mean, Jesus says to attend to the log in our own eye first, and the Apostles taught that we are to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith. Any good works done without these are of limited value.

you should be compelled by your faith to do good works and by the Holy Spirit and if you ignore it then I believe you are not doing Gods obvious will.

Yes, if there is no fruit growing, there is a problem with connection to the vine.

John 15:1-11
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Its taking one line or one word out of context of what the real letters intended to convey.Some how protestants believe we are doing it for our own glory and we simply are not - we do it because its Gods will and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

They come by this honestly. When their churches were formed during the Reformation, most of the Catholic leadership in Europe wer acting for their own glory.