Protestant and Orthodox

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Peter_J

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I was just thinking … has anyone else here noticed that on this forum there often seems to be more charity towards Protestants than towards Eastern Orthodox? I wonder why that is.

(Granted, Eastern Orthodox discussions here are pretty few and far between. The only recent one I can think of is the Orthodox vs. Catholic Doctrinal Development thread.)
 
Peter_J said:
I was just thinking … has anyone else here noticed that on this forum there often seems to be more charity towards Protestants than towards Eastern Orthodox? I wonder why that is.

(Granted, Eastern Orthodox discussions here are pretty few and far between. The only recent one I can think of is the Orthodox vs. Catholic Doctrinal Development thread.)
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think a possible reason for this could be that many Catholics do not expect to convert Orthodox Christians and see Protestants as the ones who need conversion more. Afterall, almost universally across the board Catholics see Orthodox has having valid Sacraments and are not as worried for their salvation as they are for the Protestants.

This is one man’s opinion though. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I can’t remember exactly when the Orthodox forum was closed down, you may not have been a member then. I remember that the threads on that board got pretty heated and after so many problems the mods (or whoever) decided it wasn’t worth it and shut it down, replacing it with the Eastern Catholic forum. There was quite a bit of fall out after that happened. Many of our Orthodox brothers and sisters just quit coming, but not all, thanks be to God. For a long while, nearly all discussion was banned regarding the Orthodox faith. It may still be on a sticky note somewhere. I think the mods just really wanted us to get away from the heated discussions. In my personal opinion, it is a great loss. Though I certainly cannot agree with the Orthodox about which Church is in schism (if I did, I’d be Orthodox) and some other teachings, I have a great respect for their apostolic faith and believe we have much we can learn from them. Believe me, in all my study of Church history and apologetics, no one has made me do my homework more than the Orthodox. And, to be honest, I’m a better Catholic precisely because I had to do my homework. Praise to the Lord!

I’d like to pose an alternative view to the one presented by Harpazo. Perhaps a small part of the “problem” is that the Orthodox have a claim to being the true Church that the protestants just can’t make. They are apostolic, whereas protestants came much later. If you look at history, one could see how the Orthodox could say “We are the true Church and the Catholics are in schism”. In other words, many Catholics can just counter the protestant argument easily-- either using scripture, history, what have you. But the Orthodox arguments cannot be so easily countered. They have just as much history as we do, and just as much tradition. If you are going to get into a discussion with an educated Orthodox, you better know your stuff. Because if you don’t, it is all to easy to turn it into personal jabs (to cover up for the fact that you don’t have an answer for them). And here is where the problem comes in. So, we amateur Catholic apologists should follow the old adage, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Don’t turn a civilized theological debate into a verbal brawl laced with sarcasm.

Of course, we shouldn’t get into verbal brawls with anyone whether they are Orthodox, protestant or whatever! We Catholics are representatives of our faith on these forums! In all things, we must practice charity. That is going to be the best witness for Our Lord and for our Church— better than knowing scripture verses, better than citing the catechism, better than knowing historically significant dates.
 
Perhaps, and this is just a thought, it is that the existence of Orthodoxy is a source of irritation to some Catholic apologists. As Hesychios said in another thread:
Hesychios said:
I sometimes think some apologists for the Latin Catholic church are (to an extent) embarrassed by Holy Orthodoxy, and wish we would have gone away a long time ago, because their claims to uniqueness are shared by us, their arguments to antiquity support us, and we still exist to witness the truth as we always have.

Frankly, if we had disappeared a long time ago (under the Mongols, the Arabs, the Turks, the Crusaders, the plague, the Communists or what have you), their job would be much easier today, they would have an Apostolic monopoly and modern inquirers would be none the wiser.
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The common assertion that there was only one Church until the reformers rebelled in the 16th century does not quite ring true when one discovers the Orthodox.

Catholic apologists have some very strong arguments they can use in a purely Catholic-Protestant world, and most Catholic apologetics I have read seem to have that sort of world in mind. Catholics can defend their doctrines using tradition, antiquity, and authority, and they can appeal to the human love of beauty in the liturgy and the wondrous mystery of a sacramental worldview. The fact that Orthodoxy also has all of these things complicates Catholic apologetics and causes Protestants who would have otherwise leaped joyously into the Catholic Church to hesitate and ponder.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
Perhaps, and this is just a thought, it is that the existence of Orthodoxy is a source of irritation to some Catholic apologists. As Hesychios said in another thread:

The common assertion that there was only one Church until the reformers rebelled in the 16th century does not quite ring true when one discovers the Orthodox.

Catholic apologists have some very strong arguments they can use in a purely Catholic-Protestant world, and most Catholic apologetics I have read seem to have that sort of world in mind. Catholics can defend their doctrines using tradition, antiquity, and authority, and they can appeal to the human love of beauty in the liturgy and the wondrous mystery of a sacramental worldview. The fact that Orthodoxy also has all of these things complicates Catholic apologetics and causes Protestants who would have otherwise leaped joyously into the Catholic Church to hesitate and ponder.
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I don’t think it complicates apologetics, it just means that there are different apologetics used when dealing with different groups, whether it’s mainstream Protestants, Mormons, schismatic Catholic groups, or Orthodox.
 
I see the EOC as close enough to Catholicism and as was pointed out elsewhere also have apostolic succession so are worthy of respect.

The protestant churches seem to make things up as they go along and are not scripturally based. Ir actually defies my logic that someone can call themselves a christian and not either be EOC or catholic.
 
Harpazo said:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think a possible reason for this could be that many Catholics do not expect to convert Orthodox Christians and see Protestants as the ones who need conversion more. Afterall, almost universally across the board Catholics see Orthodox has having valid Sacraments and are not as worried for their salvation as they are for the Protestants.

This is one man’s opinion though. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
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Would that lead to less charity toward the Orthodox, or greater charity toward the Orthodox?
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I can’t remember exactly when the Orthodox forum was closed down, you may not have been a member then. I remember that the threads on that board got pretty heated and after so many problems the mods (or whoever) decided it wasn’t worth it and shut it down, replacing it with the Eastern Catholic forum. There was quite a bit of fall out after that happened. Many of our Orthodox brothers and sisters just quit coming, but not all, thanks be to God. For a long while, nearly all discussion was banned regarding the Orthodox faith. It may still be on a sticky note somewhere. I think the mods just really wanted us to get away from the heated discussions. In my personal opinion, it is a great loss. Though I certainly cannot agree with the Orthodox about which Church is in schism (if I did, I’d be Orthodox) and some other teachings, I have a great respect for their apostolic faith and believe we have much we can learn from them. Believe me, in all my study of Church history and apologetics, no one has made me do my homework more than the Orthodox. And, to be honest, I’m a better Catholic precisely because I had to do my homework. Praise to the Lord!

I’d like to pose an alternative view to the one presented by Harpazo. Perhaps a small part of the “problem” is that the Orthodox have a claim to being the true Church that the protestants just can’t make. They are apostolic, whereas protestants came much later. If you look at history, one could see how the Orthodox could say “We are the true Church and the Catholics are in schism”. In other words, many Catholics can just counter the protestant argument easily-- either using scripture, history, what have you. But the Orthodox arguments cannot be so easily countered. They have just as much history as we do, and just as much tradition. If you are going to get into a discussion with an educated Orthodox, you better know your stuff. Because if you don’t, it is all to easy to turn it into personal jabs (to cover up for the fact that you don’t have an answer for them). And here is where the problem comes in. So, we amateur Catholic apologists should follow the old adage, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Don’t turn a civilized theological debate into a verbal brawl laced with sarcasm.

Of course, we shouldn’t get into verbal brawls with anyone whether they are Orthodox, protestant or whatever! We Catholics are representatives of our faith on these forums! In all things, we must practice charity. That is going to be the best witness for Our Lord and for our Church— better than knowing scripture verses, better than citing the catechism, better than knowing historically significant dates.
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Hi Prayer_Warrior, and thank you for that very thorough, and I think insightful, post. As you say, I wasn’t here at the time of the mass exodus of Orthodox from CAF, although I have read about it, for example here.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
Perhaps, and this is just a thought, it is that the existence of Orthodoxy is a source of irritation to some Catholic apologists. As Hesychios said in another thread:

The common assertion that there was only one Church until the reformers rebelled in the 16th century does not quite ring true when one discovers the Orthodox.

Catholic apologists have some very strong arguments they can use in a purely Catholic-Protestant world, and most Catholic apologetics I have read seem to have that sort of world in mind. Catholics can defend their doctrines using tradition, antiquity, and authority, and they can appeal to the human love of beauty in the liturgy and the wondrous mystery of a sacramental worldview. The fact that Orthodoxy also has all of these things complicates Catholic apologetics and causes Protestants who would have otherwise leaped joyously into the Catholic Church to hesitate and ponder.
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I too have seen Catholics made statements like “All Christians were Catholic until the Reformation”. :eek:

Thanks for quoting Hesychios’ post, I hadn’t seen it before.
 
Internal family disagreements can be much more painful and disturbing, than disputes with acquaintances. :sad_yes:
 
I have heard Orthodoxy referred to as the left lung of the Church, and I agree with that sentiment. I think in some ways Catholics feel frustrated because Orthodoxy is so close, yet we are not as “one”. I pray that someday both groups will reunite. I can’t speak for the other end, but I hope they share the feeling of being a “family” with us. I often find myself hoping that Protestants will discover the Orthodox Churches. Why? Because for some, becoming Catholic is not possible because of the stigma attached or the prejudices they hold. Yet, some Protestants know the disconnect between what they are learning in their churches and history and the Orthodox Churches are a place where they can reconcile that and move more fully into truth.
Some of you pointed out that Catholic apologists tend to skip over the fact that there was a schism when debating Protestants and say the Catholic Church was cohesive for 1600 years. I think they do this because for the most part, they view Orthodoxy as being so close in beliefs to Catholics that they almost “forget” we are not of one mind. What I mean to say is, look at all of the thousands of Protestant denominations and how far so many of them have strayed from any semblance to the early Church. The Orthodox churches are like a window in time - they have kept true. As others stated, they have valid Apostolic Succession, the holy spirit is alive and well in the Orthodox Church.
I still have a lot of confusion about the Orthodox Churches and understanding exactly what they are/how the Catholic Church relates to them. I also have trouble distinguishing what is Orthodox and what is just Eastern Rite Catholic, so take my words with a grain of salt I guess.
 
Greetings Prayer Warrior:)
I have to say, I find it humorous and sad that an Orthodox forum cannot co-exist with a Roman Catholic Discussion Board. That speaks volumes.
By his graces, his servant, Nic:)
Prayer_Warrior said:
I can’t remember exactly when the Orthodox forum was closed down, you may not have been a member then. I remember that the threads on that board got pretty heated and after so many problems the mods (or whoever) decided it wasn’t worth it and shut it down, replacing it with the Eastern Catholic forum. There was quite a bit of fall out after that happened. Many of our Orthodox brothers and sisters just quit coming, but not all, thanks be to God. For a long while, nearly all discussion was banned regarding the Orthodox faith. It may still be on a sticky note somewhere. I think the mods just really wanted us to get away from the heated discussions. In my personal opinion, it is a great loss. Though I certainly cannot agree with the Orthodox about which Church is in schism (if I did, I’d be Orthodox) and some other teachings, I have a great respect for their apostolic faith and believe we have much we can learn from them. Believe me, in all my study of Church history and apologetics, no one has made me do my homework more than the Orthodox. And, to be honest, I’m a better Catholic precisely because I had to do my homework. Praise to the Lord!

I’d like to pose an alternative view to the one presented by Harpazo. Perhaps a small part of the “problem” is that the Orthodox have a claim to being the true Church that the protestants just can’t make. They are apostolic, whereas protestants came much later. If you look at history, one could see how the Orthodox could say “We are the true Church and the Catholics are in schism”. In other words, many Catholics can just counter the protestant argument easily-- either using scripture, history, what have you. But the Orthodox arguments cannot be so easily countered. They have just as much history as we do, and just as much tradition. If you are going to get into a discussion with an educated Orthodox, you better know your stuff. Because if you don’t, it is all to easy to turn it into personal jabs (to cover up for the fact that you don’t have an answer for them). And here is where the problem comes in. So, we amateur Catholic apologists should follow the old adage, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Don’t turn a civilized theological debate into a verbal brawl laced with sarcasm.

Of course, we shouldn’t get into verbal brawls with anyone whether they are Orthodox, protestant or whatever! We Catholics are representatives of our faith on these forums! In all things, we must practice charity. That is going to be the best witness for Our Lord and for our Church— better than knowing scripture verses, better than citing the catechism, better than knowing historically significant dates.
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Glancing at the thread at OC.net and some blogs, it appears that some OC apologists were successful in getting a few people to leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. The current rebranded Eastern Catholic forum I imagine is more manageable and less problematic.
 
John_Larocque said:
Glancing at the thread at OC.net and some blogs, it appears that some OC apologists were successful in getting a few people to leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. The current rebranded Eastern Catholic forum I imagine is more manageable and less problematic.
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If the Catholic Church is the The Church, then her truth should be self-evident and should be able to take on any criticism.

The loss of Orthodox resources is the loss of Eastern Catholic resources.
 
Greetings John Larocque, grace to you:)
John_Larocque said:
Glancing at the thread at OC.net and some blogs, it appears that some OC apologists were successful in getting a few people to leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. The current rebranded Eastern Catholic forum I imagine is more manageable and less problematic.
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If we are all truly born-again Christians, then why all the fuss as to where one serves and worships God due to preferences for whatever reason granted to either persuasion?
It seems to me if one were to leave either and migrate toward the other, it’s moot; afterall one faith, one body, one Lord with the body having many members.
Albeit, I can see as many of those who have migrated East from the West and as to why.
By his graces, his servant, Nic:)
 
Grace and greetings NoWings:)
NoWings said:
If the Catholic Church is the The Church, then her truth should be self-evident and should be able to take on any criticism.

The loss of Orthodox resources is the loss of Eastern Catholic resources.
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It is indeed!
By his graces, his servant, Nic:)
 
Peter_J said:
I was just thinking … has anyone else here noticed that on this forum there often seems to be more charity towards Protestants than towards Eastern Orthodox? I wonder why that is.

(Granted, Eastern Orthodox discussions here are pretty few and far between. The only recent one I can think of is the Orthodox vs. Catholic Doctrinal Development thread.)
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Orthodox/Catholic debate is like sibling rivalry. Both want to be the Father’s favorite.

Protestant/Catholic debate calls for Catholic pastoral guidance to be extended to know-it-all Protestant children. And yes, of course I realize I’m the worst at this.
 
I think Catholics often present the idea to Protestants that they are the True Historic Church that has remained unified and historically intact. In many cases, this is an effective argument against a lot of forms of Protestantism, especially in North America.

It’s quite embarrassing for a Catholic who has been taught this to find out that many Orthodox see them as nothing more than schismatic Protestants, with no valid sacraments, having lost their apostolic succession. (In fact, such Orthodox are likely to see Protestants in a better light, as people who dimly perceived that the Catholic Church was in error.) And from the point of view of doctrine and practice, it is often a lot easier for the Orthodox to show a continuous connection with the first Christians in the Church than it is for the Catholics, especially the Latin ones.

So the Catholics who are unexpectedly confronted with this feel upset, and it makes them angry and unkind. If people buy the “We are the one true church” line with no idea that it is claimed exclusively elsewhere, it is scary when they find out.
 
Originally Posted by Peter J
I was just thinking … has anyone else here noticed that on this forum there often seems to be more charity towards Protestants than towards Eastern Orthodox? I wonder why that is.
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Jimmy_B said:
I haven’t noticed that…
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Neither have I. 😃

Seriously, it all depends on the individuals involved. There are some Catholics who seem downright bitter towards Protestants (to be honest, it goes the other way too). There are many other Catholics who are passionate about their faith and Church, but show great charity, towards Protestants and Orthodox alike, and even to other Catholics. 🙂

Jon
 
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