Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[Doreen]

Jim B:

Have you ever heard, “the giver is greater than the gift?”

In the case of the Eucharist, the gift is the very giver Himself!!
Could our Lord have given us any greater gift than Himself?
How can one understand such a gift? We must first ask for the grace of faith to believe. Once we believe (because Jesus is Truth) then we can understand. We Catholics call this the ‘mysterium fidei’ - the mystery of faith.

As Christians, we love Jesus and want to enter into an ever deeper relationship with our Savior. Christ waits for each of us in the Eucharist and when we receive Him worthily - we increase the grace He sends into our lives. Now that we know this, how could any of us want to deprive ourselves of the Eucharist?

God Love Ya!
Jim from Lincoln

Hello Jim,
Your passion for Christ is beautiful! What a blessing to know that you have known Jesus as Savior.

I share this passion you speak of, but I did not find it in the Eucharist, Jim. And I am wondering how it is that we share this beautiful experience, but we’ve come to know it differently.

That is really my main reason for coming to CA…to find out the disconnect here.

Jim,
Would you say it is possible for me to “receive Christ” outside of the Eucharist? I can tell you that my experience has been such as that I have had my entire mind renewed, my life transformed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which has become the driving force in my life. I feel that I am daily animated and motivated by the Spirit of God. He keeps me from stumbling, and directs my paths.

It’s been an amazing, undeniable relationship that I have had with the Lord. I cry out in prayer in the evening, and then meet with Him in the morning and He directly answers my cry in my time in His Word.

Would you say there is some reason why I can’t accept this as the fullness of Christ?

I used to be a troubled person…depressed often, and emotionally out of control…since asking Jesus to cleanse me, heal me, lead me…I have experienced all the fruits of the Spirit

…I can love even my “enemies”
…I have joy unspeakable
…the peace I have is indescribable
…I am increasingly patient with my children and my husband and others
…I have serious compassion for others, such as become like burdens on my heart, so much that I simply MUST pour myself out to God with these
…And I have self-control; no longer needing a beer, or glass of wine, or to go shopping to gain some sense of rest and satisfaction.

I have experienced healing in so many areas of my life. The demons have been cast out, and I daily seek the Lord for continued strength, protection, and rest. It is only by the GRACE of God that I have experienced this kind of transformation.

Shall I doubt the Lord has met me outside of the Eucharist?Please help me understand this.

Thanks, Jim.
D.

“In repentence and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength.” Isaiah 30:15

 

[Contarini]

Alfie:

Most differences between Protestants are merely based on tradition.

Isn’t this equally true of differences between Protestants and Catholics? After all, there are many Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans) who are closer on many points to Catholicism than to certain other Protestants. I’m far closer to Catholic than to Baptist theology, for instance.

I don’t think any of the differences among Trinitarian Christians concern essential matters (though some of them do concern important matters). But I don’t see how you can claim that Protestants as a whole have some unity from which Catholics are excluded.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Doreen:

I’ve heard this question asked a lot on this site…the misunderstanding comes from the Catholic not realizing that most Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit…they are sheep who follow a common voice.

Most Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit? That seems a bit presumptuous–though it’s far preferable to Alfie’s belief that only five percent of the people in mainline churches are saved!

Why doesn’t this “common voice” lead Lutherans and Baptists, for instance, to agree? Why did Martin Luther say that he would rather side with the “Papists” than the Zwinglians on the Eucharist if Luther and the Zwinglians were all hearing a “common voice”?

Having said this, remember that some protestants have given other protestants a bad name because they were like the seed falling by the wayside and getting trampled, and some have been like the seed that fell on rocky ground, while others fell on thorns that choked it…there are Catholics, as well, who have been like these seeds. While others, both protestant and Catholic have landed on good soil, sprouted and have been fruitful.

Of course. But that isn’t what we are talking about. Only Christ can see for sure who is a good seed and who isn’t. So when we speak of the unity of the Church, we are speaking of the visible Church and its visible unity. That is, by definition, the only kind of unity that we can meaningfully talk about as finite human beings.

So, to think that these 20,000 churches are a terrible thing, is to ignore God’s providential ways. People are being reached all over the world because of the many denominations, just as the Gospels taught…the body of Christ is made up of more than just an eye or an arm…diversity is what allows more people to be brought to Him.

Diversity and disunity are radically different. Paul says very clearly that if the various members fight or act as if they don’t need each other, then they do not have unity.

How do Southern Baptists act as if they need Pentecostals, or Episcopalians, or Eastern Orthodox? (I’m not picking on the Baptists–please feel free to apply the same question to whatever church you belong to.) How are the various denominations accountable to each other? How could you tell if they were *not *in unity with each other?

Unity must have practical, visible consequences.

I would argue that all baptized Christians do have a degree of visible unity. But it’s clearly not the kind of unity Christ wishes for us. We need to be working toward that instead of making up self-serving excuses for our sinful divisions.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Jim B:

He was the first person in history (that I can find) who declared that the Eucharist was merely a ‘symbol’. Triumph, page 200,
H.W. Crocker III

Crocker’s historical ignorance is his problem. (I didn’t recall that he said this–but he said so many other outrageous things that this probably got lost in the multitude.)

I defy anyone to show me how Wycliffe’s position is more radical than that of Berengar of Tours–perhaps it’s not even more radical than that of Ratramnus. And then there are those frequent remarks of Augustine making a significant distinction between the sign and the thing signified.

According to Gary Macy, it was common before the 13th century to claim that unbelievers did not receive Christ’s Body when they received the bread and wine of the Eucharist. The Catholic position as it is defended today may be more recent than you realize.

Wycliffe did not say that the Eucharist was merely a symbol. Most of the Reformers did not say that it was merely a symbol. There is a huge spectrum of belief about the Eucharist–you are trying to cut out the middle and pose a stark dilemma between two extremes. If that was the choice, I would accept the Catholic position (even the Catholic position as popularly defined, which I see as quite different from the position of someone like Aquinas) without hesitation.

Edwin

 

[Doreen]

Unity must have practical, visible consequences.

Exactly…the consequences would be the fruits of the Spirit…if you don’t see them, you don’t see Christ alive and active.

 

[Jim_B]

Doreen:

Hello Jim,
Your passion for Christ is beautiful! What a blessing to know that you have known Jesus as Savior.

I share this passion you speak of, but I did not find it in the Eucharist, Jim. And I am wondering how it is that we share this beautiful experience, but we’ve come to know it differently.

Shall I doubt the Lord has met me outside of the Eucharist?Please help me understand this.

Thanks, Jim.
D.

Hi Doreen,

From what you have written, I have no doubt that you have met the Lord outside the Eucharist. In answer to your question, yes, certainly Jesus is not limited to the Eucharist only.
Jesus imparts graces in Baptism when Original Sin is removed.
But if He sacrifices Himself as the Lamb of God, and commands His apostles to “Do this in memory of me”, shouldn’t we heed those words as well?

Like all the sacraments, God imparts graces through them,
“an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace.”
So if we believe God can impart grace to us through the sacraments, why would any of us shy away from them?
God can impart grace to anyone whenever and wherever He chooses. But can there be any more eficacious manner of receiving grace than that of receiving Jesus Himself - in the manner He prescribed for us at the Last Supper?

I’m not say, the only way to receive grace is through the Eucharist. But I am saying, if Christ is present in the Eucharist, what are we waiting for - an invitation in the mail?
Jim B

 

[Contarini]

Doreen:

Exactly…the consequences would be the fruits of the Spirit…if you don’t see them, you don’t see Christ alive and active.

But when people practice the fruits of the Spirit in isolation from each other–and even in opposition to each other–can this be said to be unity?

I study the Reformation, Doreen. Like C. S. Lewis, I can’t avoid the conclusion that very holy people, all of whom showed the fruits of the Spirit (I think Lewis’s example of Thomas More and William Tyndale is an excellent one, since they were both martyrs for opposite positions), disagreed with each other passionately and violently. Neither evangelical “invisible Church” arguments nor the Catholic view that the Church’s unity remains whole even if schismatics depart from her account adequately for this real and tragic division with Christ’s Body.

Edwin

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Huguenot, you are genuinely seeking Truth. I can see that you are asking sincere questions and really looking for the answers. This is very refreshing because most Protestants that I have encountered on this forum come here to convert us. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to Truth.

And you know what ? Some of the Catholics on this forum also try to convert us !!

Thank you for your kind message …

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

See the Lord’s church will prevail in that He will not allow us to “build monasteries”

My oh my. I sure hope I am reading this incorrectly. I hope you are not saying that the Lord forbid us to build monasteries.

 

[Doreen]

Mickey:

My oh my. I sure hope I am reading this incorrectly. I hope you are not saying that the Lord forbid us to build monasteries.

Mickey, those words were placed in quotes to represent a concept not the actual monastery. See…we are not to “hide it under a bushel”…we are not to take our knowledge of the Lord and then go form a “monastery” in our hearts that keeps it all in for ourselves.

The great comission was that we spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

The tendency for many today is to take what we learn of Christ’s love and forgiveness and because we are so overwhelmed by the darkness of the world, we form little “monasteries”…where we try to stay totally out of the world out of fear. Hence, the Word of God doesn’t get spread.

There’s nothing wrong with building monasteries for the purpose of providing refuge for those in need…places for spiritual renewal and strengthening, edification…I am not criticizing this at all…

I am saying that we are instructed to share the love of the Lord…not keep it under a bushel…“build monasteries” where we form safe pockets of existence, and never venture out among the “Gentiles.”

I knew somebody would misread that, and so I am glad to have the opportunity to explain.

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

The tendency for many today is to take what we learn of Christ’s love and forgiveness and because we are so overwhelmed by the darkness of the world, we form little “monasteries”…where we try to stay totally out of the world out of fear. Hence, the Word of God doesn’t get spread.

Then I suggest that you use different language for your analogy. Monasteries are not places for hiding in fear.

Those who fervently desire to remain amid (in the world) as well as those who live a worthy life in communities, in mountains and in caves are saved; and God bestows on them great blessings solely because they rest their faith in Him.
St. Symeon the New Theologian

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

And you know what ? Some of the Catholics on this forum also try to convert us !!

Thank you for your kind message …

Yeah, but it’s a Catholic forum.

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

And you know what ? Some of the Catholics on this forum also try to convert us !!

Thank you for your kind message …

Hey, wait a minute! That’s not fair to turn my statement around on me!!! This is a Catholic Apologetics forum!

 

[Eden]

doreen:

[D]iversity is what allows more people to be brought to Him.

So, you believe God desires thousands of different Christian churches so every personality type can find a church to match?

Here are seven different interpretations of what Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior means to different denominations:

“When you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you are saved and . . .”

1. “You can’t lose your salvation, no matter what you do or neglect to do.”
2. “You can’t lose your salvation, but if you commit a serious sin afterwards then you were never saved to begin with.”
3. “You can’t lose your salvation, but if you commit* any* sin afterwards, then you were never saved to begin with.”
4. “You can lose your salvation, but only if you stop ‘believing’ in Jesus, and if you stop, you’re damned forever.”
5. "You can lose your salvation if you stop believing in Jesus, but if you start believing again you get re-saved. "
6. “You can lose your salvation, but only if you commit a serious sin, and if you do that, you’re damned forever.”
7. “You can lose your salvation, but only if you commit a serious sin, but you can get re-saved if you confess it.”

Are these seven different interpretations illustrating diversity or disunity? Clearly the latter.

From this article:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9910conv.asp

 

[Doreen]

Eden:

So, you believe God desires thousands of different Christian churches so every personality type can find a church to match?

I believe God can reach us where we are at.

I believe every MAN-made institution is subject to problems. (I.E. the attack of the devil)

I believe that where the devil hasn’t attacked, he’s not seriously threatened… hmmm?

I believe the HOLY SPIRIT is our only protection from evil in this present age.

I believe that churches are popping up all over partly because of the attack of the devil…he seeks to destroy anything that might threaten his kingdom…but also because the body of Christ is best functioning if it is branching out, not maintaining an exclusive nature…how do we reach the ends of the earth if we “stay in one place?”

I believe that God sent His Son to save the sinner, the lost.

I believe He can intervene in our lives regardless of our “church.”

I also believe that He commanded us to love one another and love our neighbor as ourselves because He knew that would be our first area of weakness.

We should not be surprised that humans would not see eye-to-eye in every aspect of faith…but those who obey His commands will receive His Spirit and will share a brotherhood/sisterhood that cannot be denied.

Your question re: all the varying beliefs on salvation only points to the fact that the devil is ever working to divide us. I don’t let that scare me, because I know that Jesus will one day overthrow him.

Salvation is a gift, given to the ever-repentent sinner. If we live animated and motivated by the Holy Spirit, we shall not continue sinning. (Read 1 John)

Even the apostles disputed about such matters. So you cannot say that the Catholic church did not have divisions. It did from the very beginning. (Read 2 Corinthians 11-13)

“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? - unless indeed you are disqualified. But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.” 2 Cor. 13:5-6

Every living, breathing, human being (even the wonderful apostles while they walked the planet) has to “make themselves daily living sacrifices”…recommitting their lives to Christ daily in order to be filled with the Spirit…and we must pray unceasingly that we would be able to extinguish the flaming arrows of the devil.

Jesus as personal Lord and Savior allows this process to happen, bringing us to a new life in Christ. It’s that simple.

Are there examples of people who have missed the mark? Certainly. Are there situations where some have misunderstood this message. No question. Does it change the message? Nope.

I “missed the mark” when this message was presented to me within the constructs of the Catholic Church. I judged the church for that. Now I realize, it is simply not the Church’s fault as much as it is the work of the evil one who mingles within every church.

There are two forces vying for every soul. The Lord meets us where we are at when He sees fit.

Does it mean we should not evangelize. Of course, not. We are to share our love and joy and the source of it through our daily interactions. We are to be animated and motivated by the Holy Spirit to share the love of Christ as the Spirit leads us.

This is what it is to be a Christian. To love, obey, serve the Lord.

With one goal in mind. . .to bring glory to the Father in heaven.

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

I believe that where the devil hasn’t attacked, he’s not seriously threatened… hmmm?

He must be particularly threatened by the Catholic Church.

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Hey, wait a minute! That’s not fair to turn my statement around on me!!! This is a Catholic Apologetics forum!

And even if it is a Catholic Apologetics forum …does it mean it is OK to try to convert us ???
for me the purpose of a forum is to discuss with each other, to try to get to know each other better, not necessarily to convert each other …

 

[Shiann]

Doreen:

I “missed the mark” when this message was presented to me within the constructs of the Catholic Church. I judged the church for that. Now I realize, it is simply not the Church’s fault as much as it is the work of the evil one who mingles within every church.

But that’s the point!
The evil is in PEOPLE - NOT in God’s Church! THERE HAS to be an earthly Church that God protects!

He promised he would protect an earthly Church for US that WE could learn and live his Word. This Church is then (by His very promise) PROTECTED from the evil you speak of above!

It is an amazing thing that God does! He ensures the perfection of his WORD amidst our sinful natures- and he does this through His CHURCH here on earth- by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There are two forces vying for every soul. The Lord meets us where we are at when He sees fit.

He speaks to us where we are- when he sees fit, but MEETS us in HIS CHURCH!

 

[Mickey]

Huguenot:

And even if it is a Catholic Apologetics forum …does it mean it is OK to try to convert us ???
for me the purpose of a forum is to discuss with each other, to try to get to know each other better, not necessarily to convert each other …

Who is trying to convert you?

 

[Mickey]

Shiann:

But that’s the point!
The evil is in PEOPLE - NOT in God’s Church! THERE HAS to be an earthly Church that God protects!

He promised he would protect an earthly Church for US that WE could learn and live his Word. This Church is then (by His very promise) PROTECTED from the evil you speak of above!

It is an amazing thing that God does! He ensures the perfection of his WORD amidst our sinful natures- and he does this through His CHURCH here on earth- by the power of the Holy Spirit.

He speaks to us where we are- when he sees fit, but MEETS us in HIS CHURCH!

AMEN!
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