Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

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SolaChristo:
I dont take that we are to be born again to be a rebirth of our physical bodies its a rebirth of our spiritual man.
The disciples that walked away believed that they must literally eat His body and drink His blood. The OT forbides the drinking of blood, they could not reconcile the two commandments one not to dirnk blood and the other to drink blood.
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Yes, the Levitical Law insisited no Jew eat the meat of an unclean animal or drink the blood. How appropriate that Jesus was the Sacrafical Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. Remember Jesus fullfilled the law perfectly in every way! The LAW does not justify! How appropriate that He would have us drink His Blood!
 
So to understand “the argument” no one seems to state it in so many words. So I will give it a go, if thats ok.

A Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating the very flesh of Christ, (I saw one post about a person being upset that bits were on the floor, she was upset to see Jesus walked on)

Whereas a non Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating a remembrance of the flesh of Christ.

Same with the blood the wine is the actual blood and the grape juice (sometimes it is wine too) is a remberance of the blood that was spilled.

OK and when one eats the flesh and drinks the wine, what is one to be thinking on?? Whats the purpose of doing this?
 
Kitty Chan:
OK and when one eats the flesh and drinks the wine, what is one to be thinking on?? Whats the purpose of doing this?
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It is not either/or for Catholics and Orthodox–it is both. As we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, we are also in spiritual communion–this is the fullness of the Mystery. 🙂
 
Kitty Chan:
So to understand “the argument” no one seems to state it in so many words. So I will give it a go, if thats ok.

A Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating the very flesh of Christ, (I saw one post about a person being upset that bits were on the floor, she was upset to see Jesus walked on)

Whereas a non Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating a remembrance of the flesh of Christ.

Same with the blood the wine is the actual blood and the grape juice (sometimes it is wine too) is a remberance of the blood that was spilled.

OK and when one eats the flesh and drinks the wine, what is one to be thinking on?? Whats the purpose of doing this?
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There is simply NOT enough room here to explain “what you could be thinking on when you receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
I have found a great book called “Praying in the Presence of our Lord with St. Padre Pio” You can get a copy of it by going to www.osv.com. authored by Eileen dunn Bertanzetti and Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel, C.F.R.

The following is an exerpt;
"Just as he himself did, Padre Pio advised otheres to “keep Jesus Crucified present to your imgaination, in your arms, and on your breast; and kissing His side, say a thousand times,** “This is my hope, this is the Heart of my soul; nothing will ever separate me from God’s love. I posess Him and will not leave Him, until He places me in a safe place**.” What better way is there to “keep Jesus Christ Crucified” in your mind, heart and soul than to spend time with Him in His Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.”

The book is filled to the brim with prayers, thoughts and scripture to reflect on when in the Presence of Jesus!
 
Kitty Chan:
So to understand “the argument” no one seems to state it in so many words. So I will give it a go, if thats ok.

A Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating the very flesh of Christ, (I saw one post about a person being upset that bits were on the floor, she was upset to see Jesus walked on)

Whereas a non Catholic when they eat the wafer they are eating a remembrance of the flesh of Christ.

Same with the blood the wine is the actual blood and the grape juice (sometimes it is wine too) is a remberance of the blood that was spilled.

OK and when one eats the flesh and drinks the wine, what is one to be thinking on?? Whats the purpose of doing this?
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Yup, Kitty. You seem to understand the broad distinctions. Both Catholics and Protestants receive whatever they call it with reverence and with a sense that they are connected to 2000 years of Christian faith. Other than that, the reception of the Eucharist – for both Catholics and Protestants – can be a deeply individual and personal experience. Catholics have the added solemnity of being in intimate personal, spiritual AND physical Communion with Christ.
 
Mickey I did not state is was either /or I stated what the differences as I can figure are so far.

So spiritual communion, ok whats that mean exactly? you feel one with Christ, maybe you feel grateful of what He endured for you.?? like that or being a mystry you just enjoy that.

Still why should anyone partake?
 
Tonyagrace]

Im sure there isnt room, this is a good start, sounds like a good book. I enjoy hearing others thoughts that way.
 
Tonyagrace

Hmm anyone who believes in God yes. Those that are new would need to learn, those that dont believe would need a basic explaination of whats the purpose. 🙂
 
Kitty, then please let me share with you another exerpt;

In the Presence of The Bread of Life

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” John 6:35

You finally have a chance to worship before Jesus, the Bread of Life, truly present in the Sacrament of Salvation. But what do you say to Him? Or should you simply remain silent before Him and let Him speak to your heart and soul? Or should you read from a holy spiritual book to help focus your mind on Christ’s presence?

St.Pio’s Words-
"Don’t worry about not having suitable books from which to take material for holy mental prayers, that is holy medication. If Jesus provides you with these books, give thanks. If Jesus doesn not provide you with these books, do not be distressed. Any truth of our holy religion can and must be the object of our meditation. the truths of the Christian religion are very, very many, and you know them very well. So be calm and enjoy being a child of Jesus…
(there is much more, please look for this book)
 
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mercygate:
Yup, Kitty. You seem to understand the broad distinctions. Both Catholics and Protestants receive whatever they call it with reverence and with a sense that they are connected to 2000 years of Christian faith. Other than that, the reception of the Eucharist – for both Catholics and Protestants – can be a deeply individual and personal experience. Catholics have the added solemnity of being in intimate personal, spiritual AND physical Communion with Christ.
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Actually it took a bit of reading to get it this far. 🙂

What everyone thinks is obvious really isnt.

To what you describe I would add that the intimate personal spiritual is the same to a non Catholic.

Just the last bit the physical, Im really trying to get it but what is the purpose to pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood??

The description of what is happening is very good, that would seem to me to be what is the main idea of the whole thing.
 
Kitty Chan:
Mickey I did not state is was either /or I stated what the differences as I can figure are so far.
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I’m sorry. I thought you were insinuating something. :o
Kitty Chan:
So spiritual communion, ok whats that mean exactly? you feel one with Christ, maybe you feel grateful of what He endured for you.?
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See mercygate’s post above. 🙂
Kitty Chan:
Still why should anyone partake?
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Are you joking? :confused:
 
Kitty Chan:
What everyone thinks is obvious really isnt.
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Ain’t THAT the truth!
To what you describe I would add that the intimate personal spiritual is the same to a non Catholic.
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How could you possibly know since you have not experienced it? (Not being snice here; just stating a fact.)
Just the last bit the physical, Im really trying to get it but what is the purpose to pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood??
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Pretend? Catholics do not pretend to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. He has promised it, and we believe it. No pretending at all.
 
Why not read the article on the Eucharist at the catholic.com home page (see blue index on left)…here is a small portion…it is from the Pope…

One Catholic doctrine that has been under threat is the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Some have tried to portray the Eucharist simply as a fellowship meal among Christians in which we receive Jesus. But it is more. The Pope stresses:

“The Eucharist is a sacrifice in the strict sense, and not only in a general way, as if it were simply a matter of Christ’s offering himself to the faithful as their spiritual food. The gift of his love and obedience to the point of giving his life is in the first place a gift to his Father. Certainly it is a gift given for our sake, and indeed that of all humanity, yet it is first and foremost a gift to the Father” (13).

Against the horizontal or community-centered approach taken in many parishes, the Pope reminds us that the primary dimension of the Eucharist is vertical or God-centered: The Eucharist makes present Christ’s sacrifice in which he gives himself in love to the Father for our sake.

Christ clearly intended the Eucharist to be understood as a sacrifice, as the Pope points out: “In instituting it, he did not merely say: ‘This is my body,’ ‘this is my blood,’ but went on to add: ‘which is given for you,’ ‘which is poured out for you.’ Jesus did not simply state that what he was giving them to eat and drink was his body and his blood; he also expressed its sacrificial meaning and made sacramentally present his sacrifice which would soon be offered on the Cross for the salvation of all” (12).
 
Kitty Chan:
Im really trying to get it but what is the purpose to pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood??
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I don’t think that non-Catholics are pretending to do anything. Certain reformers began to teach that there is no Real Presence. Those that are born into that understanding celebrate the Lord’s supper as symbolic only.
 
Kitty:

Communion is the answer to your question.

To eat and drink the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ is the perfection of each man’s desire—unity with God. Not just in a spiritual or intellectual level but also in the physical. This symphony of union of God to our different modes of being is essential.

No human contact comes close to the act of receiving Holy Communion. Each time a Catholic receives the Holy Eucharist, he/she is in Him and Christ is in them. Beautiful!

Hope you pray about this for what seems prosaic to you right now is the total excitement of Heaven.

in XT.
 
Kay Cee:
BTW, when his disciples fail to understand Him in John 4, He clears the matter up by telling them He is speaking in a symbolic way. However, in John 6, He does no such thing. Instead, He repeats Himself: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you.” (John 6: 53-54)
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Hmmm…interesting. So how can one be sure that He’s not continuing a theme here? …And it’s implied (no need to repeat) that it’s parable-like speech?

You’ve just made a point for it potentially being somewhat symbolic…see next post for further examination of this…somehow I continued this discussion on another thread…so I’ll include that stuff here, now.

D.
 
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Doreen:
Hmmm…interesting. So how can one be sure that He’s not continuing a theme here? …And it’s implied (no need to repeat) that it’s parable-like speech?

You’ve just made a point for it potentially being somewhat symbolic…see next post for further examination of this…somehow I continued this discussion on another thread…so I’ll include that stuff here, now.

D.
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Come again? I don’t follow you. Or maybe you didn’t quite follow Kay Cee?

“Amen, amen” means: “Listen up brothers: I’m not messin’ with your head here. I am saying EXACTLY what I am saying. You gotta problem widdat? Then you can walk – like the others.”

Then when asked if they will walk away also, Peter responds, not with “Right on, man! We understand you!” but with “Where we gonna go? You da man with the words of eternal life!”

In other words: Peter and the boys stay with Jesus, **not **because they UNDERSTAND him (I mean, who could understand THAT?) but because they have a personal relationship with him and they TRUST him.
 
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Doreen:
Hmmm…interesting. So how can one be sure that He’s not continuing a theme here? …And it’s implied (no need to repeat) that it’s parable-like speech?

You’ve just made a point for it potentially being somewhat symbolic…see next post for further examination of this…somehow I continued this discussion on another thread…so I’ll include that stuff here, now.

D.
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So how can one be sure He *is *continuing such a theme here? And, if Jesus were continuing the theme, wouldn’t there be some indication of that–like continuing the theme?

Where is it implied that it’s “parable-like speech”? I see no such implication.

The people take him literally. That’s why they walk away in disgust. But if, as you say, Jesus meant it figuratively and that’s the theme here, why doesn’t He say so? Why doesn’t He say, "You don’t understand. I really meant *this . . . " *and then go on to explain?

If the Bible is as clear and easy to interpret as Protestants claim it is (so that each individual Christian can easily interpret its clear meaning), how on earth would each individual Christian come up with the figurative explanation you gave above (post #60)? Did you actually come up with that all on your own or did you read it somewhere?

Why is the literal interpretation so hard for you to accept?
 
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AquinasXVI:
Kitty:
Communion is the answer to your question.
To eat and drink the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ is the perfection of each man’s desire—unity with God. Not just in a spiritual or intellectual level but also in the physical. This symphony of union of God to our different modes of being is essential.

No human contact comes close to the act of receiving Holy Communion. Each time a Catholic receives the Holy Eucharist, he/she is in Him and Christ is in them. Beautiful!

Hope you pray about this for what seems prosaic to you right now is the total excitement of Heaven.

in XT.
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I like what you Tonyagrace posted about what the Pope said. I have no problem or arguement with what was said by Tonyagrace, or you Aquinas.

Well I like what you say here although the last part about things being boring is not true. Thats not a issue. To me when you both describe this I agree, and thats where I keep coming back to if I agree with what you are saying, then where is the arguement.

Perhaps the secret is Im not a card carrying fundy, maybe thats why this conversation to me does not connect totally to understanding just what you are getting at.

To me I see there is some kind of a difference of perception, whereas Catholics see the actual flesh going in the mouth and non Catholics see the flesh broken, is this it??
 
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