Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[Doreen]

See…another example of how the Lord answers our cry for discernment and wisdom.

I had just jumped to another thread to reply to someone telling me I sound like I think Catholics are not Christian…and at the end of my rebuttal of such a charge…I came across this wonderful word from the Word, which puts another 50 exclamations points on an earlier statement and on my most recent post here:

Romans 14:19 “Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.” (oh, and how cool…the next line is perfect for the thread re: Eucharist.)
Verse 20 "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food."

If anyone is following all this, and does not sense the Spirit working here…they’re not tuned in.

ANYBODY got an AMEN?
D.
!!!

 

[Shiann]

Doreen:

Hi Pry’,
Here’s the SLIVER of difference in understanding that I think is the basis for this entire discussion.

We all agree that Christ meant it when He said “DO THIS in REMEMBRANCE of ME.” I have not often come across Bible-based fellowships that argue that point in the least (not saying there aren’t some who veer completely away from the performance of it)…

So the SLIVER of difference is the Church of Rome interprets this literally and have expressed this as a supernatural transfiguration that happens EVERY time at the Mass of the Eucharist.

… The Church of Rome, with historical evidence to support this from the people instructed by the apostles whom Christ spoke these words to…

Meanwhile, those who broke away from the Church of Rome have determined that there is a supernatural transfiguration that is given to all who believe, and the Lord’s Supper is a ceremony meant to remember this truth…but they look at it as a SPIRITUAL transfiguration of our hearts as we “accept” Christ’s indwelling prescence…

… they take the “meat” out of the action and make it a ceremony. They disregard the perfect union of Old and New Testament. They have missed (or lost) the perfect fulfillment of Judaism that Christ’s Sacrifice in the Mass truly is.

The Church of Rome is basically saying the same thing only taking it a step further in believing the host to be a literal element of Christ’s personhood.

Wrong- it is a literal element of Christ’s body and DIVINITY, fully present completely and extraordinarily in the Body and Blood of Christ. This is a HUGE step beyond what most Protestant Churches espouse.

Would you agree that this is the crux of the debate?

Can the “bread and wine” that Catholics consume actually be the Body and Blood of Christ from a historical, and scriptural point of view. That seems to be the debate.

So…the fact is, then, that we are all SO close in our thinking, that we are almost on the same page!

An example of this ‘closeness’ you speak of would be like those people who believe the world was divinely created in 7 actual days or if there was more of an intelligent design. They both believe in divine creation- and it might seem that there is so little reason for either to get in a fluff about the other point of view, but there have been many knock out debates here that would show us that a small difference can be staggering.

I appreciate what you are getting at though.

Think of it. We are SO close…yet wars have been fought over this…lives have been lost, and people have completely walked away from the faith altogether because they could not land on a truth that was certain enough for them.

All of these a shame. But both cannot be right. There IS but one TRUTH.

**

Now, if we consider how the serpent works…Does this not all seem like his doing? Tearing us apart, when we are SO close to being fully united?

**

Indeed.

But here’s the catch…we know who reigns. We know the Lord is allowing this debate to bring minds and hearts to a point of hunger for truth. I feel like we are on the brink of a major revival on this planet like none other in history. The devil wants me to see all that’s happening in the world and be afraid…but I see it as all part of God’s plan to wake us up and get our attention.

We have hope, because we have searched the Scriptures Old and New, and we see how God has never failed His people.

I am grateful for the freedom of speech, and the fact that we can openly discuss this. That, alone, is a gift of God. We should not take it for granted, since we know a day will come when our voices for Christ the True King will be unlawful when the Tribulation begins.

We are witnessing the birth pains…we must take advantage of this opportunity to bring the brothers and sisters together and help those who have turned away.

“May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit…”
<><
D.

And you as well!

 

[Doreen]

Meanwhile, those who broke away from the Church of Rome have determined that there is a supernatural transfiguration that is given to all who believe, and the Lord’s Supper is a ceremony meant to remember this truth…but they look at it as a SPIRITUAL transfiguration of our hearts as we “accept” Christ’s indwelling prescence…

Shiann,
Thanks for your insightful words. I am glad you are a “stickler” for the truth. The quote above … where is that from ? I don’t recognize it.
D.

 

[Milliardo]

Doreen:

Milliardo,
I don’t think we can say the Christ is obliged to do anything. He knows so much more than He tells the disciples…He evens says so: John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” As I said, He knows the hearts of men. He’d not bother to explain to those who are not ready to hear.

You simply haven’t made a convincing argument here because if what you’re saying were true, then Jesus would have sat and beat His point into EVERYONE’s head the whole 33 years He walked the planet. Right?

And I, again, cite (maybe I cited this on the Eucharist thread, so maybe I haven’t shared this with folks here) Christ said Himself that He was speaking figuratively.

John 16:25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.”

I appreciate your efforts to set me straight. Keep chipping away!
D.

 

[Milliardo]

Doreen:

Milliardo,
I don’t think we can say the Christ is obliged to do anything.

As “the truth” Himself, He was more than obliged to go after His Disciples, especially that 60 of them left Him and no longer believed in Him. This case is different from that of the disbelieving Jewish authorities, who didn’t even took much stock of Him from the start.

He knows so much more than He tells the disciples…He evens says so: John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” As I said, He knows the hearts of men. He’d not bother to explain to those who are not ready to hear.

He knows very much! But that still doesn’t mean He was not morally obliged to go after those who left Him. As the Good Shepherd, we see Him go after the stray sheep. As it is also, in John 16 He tells that to those who have been faithful to Him. But we digress a bit there; in John 6 Disciples who believed in Him left Him. Today, a pastor who has his congregation leave Him for being less than forthright to his flock would be ridiculed and scorned. Can we hold Jesus in any less light then?

You simply haven’t made a convincing argument here because if what you’re saying were true, then Jesus would have sat and beat His point into EVERYONE’s head the whole 33 years He walked the planet. Right?

But He did constantly beat His point to everyone all the time He preached, right? We cannot fault Him for doing anything less than that. Would it be His fault then if those who listened to Him do not believe Him?

And I, again, cite (maybe I cited this on the Eucharist thread, so maybe I haven’t shared this with folks here) Christ said Himself that He was speaking figuratively.

If He did, then He would not have said to His Disciples, “Does this shock you?” (v. 61) when He heard them murmuring that what he said was hard and can’t be accepted. In fact, He went on, “What if you see the Son of Man coming down from heaven?” His point is clear: what He said is very much literal, and is not impossible to Him for nothing is impossible with God. So to Jesus, this is not extraordinary, nor simply figurative, or else He would not make it a point to say something like that.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hi Doreen;

My first post to this discussion, but perhaps I can add something to the conversation:

(1) The nature of the debate - The Real Presence of Christ:

I think the distinction between Catholic and Protestant understanding regarding the eucharist is that Catholics believe the consecrated bread and wine is the literal body and blood of Jesus Christ (sometimes described as “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity”) what most protestant denominations believe Christ is only symbolically present. It is not an insignificant distinction, nor is it unimportant. I agree with you that on many issues we are close, but with regard to the doctrines surrounding the Eucharist there is - sadly - a wide gap that must still be bridged. Either it is true, or it is not. Either the consecrated bread and wine is Jesus the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, or not. Either we Catholics are idolators or we have something very special - that no protestant denomination can lay claim to.

(2) Catholics believe the Bible and History Support the Real Presence.

The scripture passages have been quoted previously and I’m not going to sling them at you again. But I will say that a study of the early Church reveals that from the very beginning Christians practiced the liturgy of the Eucharist in different forms - all recognizing that the consecrated bread and wine became the actual body and blood of the Lord. This understanding of the Eucharist was nearly universal within the Catholic Church in Europe up to the point of the reformation. Martin Luther himself confirmed that the early Church Fathers unanimously taught the Real Presence:

“of all the fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as, ‘It is simply bread and wine’ or ‘Christ’s body and blood are not present.’ Yet this subject is so frequently discussed by them, it is impossible that they should not at some time have let slip such an expression as, ‘Itis simply bread,’ ro ‘Not that the body of Christ is physically present’ or the like, since they are greatly concerned not to mislead the people; actually, they simply proceed to speak as if no one doubted that Christ’s body and blood are present. Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side”

(Luther’s Works (St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing, 1961), Vol. 37, 54.)

(3) It’s a question of authority - either individual authority to interpret Sacred Scripture or the authority of the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that belief in the Real Presence comes down to where you believe the authority to teach lies. Of course we all agree that the authority *ultimately * rests with Christ. But Catholicsbelieve Christ founded a Church on Peter and the Apostles, and that the Church was intended to continue teaching beyond the death of the Apostles. That teaching authority exists in an unbroken succession from the Apostles to the present successor - Benedict XVI. As followers of Christ, Catholics recognize this continuing Apostolic teaching authority founded by Christ on Peter. Christ’s teaching authority manifest in His Church affirms the truth of the Real Presence and shows us how it is consistent with Scripture.

You, as an adherent of sola scriptura, are compelled to be bound only by the Bible, as prayerfully understood by you. You prayerfully interpret Scripture to reject the Real Presence. In coming to your conclusion you are necessarily rejecting the teaching authority that Catholics accept. I’m not questioning your sincere belief in and desire to follow Christ, but you invest yourself with the authority that Catholics acknowledge to exist in the visible Church founded by Christ. You reject that authority and so you feel free to reject the interpretation that supports the Church’s teaching on the Real Presence.

So, which interpretation of John 6 is correct?

-Peace

 

[Doreen]

Welcome to the discussion, Robert!

I appreciate your take on things. I can tell you it has been interesting to say the least.

It seems to me that belief in the Real Presence comes down to where you believe the authority to teach lies.

This must be why we/I keep forgetting which thread/argument I’m discussing.

I just keep being blown away by the little grains of truth that are revealing themselves in this dialogue.

You’re point makes the cross-over of these two threads understandable now.

Seems you’ve challenged my desire to paint this out as a really minimal disagreement…even after saying all that, I wasn’t convinced myself…and I knew it was a little bit of wishful thinking.

If we compare the end result, that is, the experiences of partaking of the Eucharist and accepting Christ (as Lord and Savior), would you say there are some likenesses?

The truly devout and discerning Catholic taking the Eucharist experiences a “knowledge” of Christ within…the indwelling of His Spirit (would that be accurate?). Would it be comparable to the concept of submitting one’s life to Christ?
D.

 

[Doreen]

My “experience” truly began when I submitted my life to Christ…that is, I finally said, “**Okay, Lord. I keep making a huge mess of things, you go! I’ve learned I can’t make it all right on my own. I give up…i.e. I SURRENDER my life to you! Take it. Take my sins and my shame, and show me the better way.” ** And in doing that, I sincerely sought His truth, I prayed for and soon found wonderful fellowship to keep me accountable, I wholly turned even my thought-life over to Him and said, “I know the devil’s the one trying to tear me down and take me down that dark road again…I don’t wanna go there anymore, Lord, so you have to help me say no!” I had a sincere desire to say “no” to all things that separated me from the Love, care, truth of God.

Now…there was no hocus pocus, but it became a daily act of surrender. I had to make myself a “daily living sacrifice” by saying, “**Put to death the desires of the flesh in me, Lord!” “Take every thought captive, that I might not even sin in my mind!” **

And after doing these things, I found my life slowly but surely being transformed. He challenged me and began to discipline me in areas of weakness until that area was stripped clean, and we’d move on to the next one. This process, which continues today, that I have experienced over the past 8 years, has been a daily walking. It’s been a journey that has had its highs and lows, but as the years have passed the highs keep getting higher and the lows keep getting shallower.

It’s been really amazing. And it is what has brought me to CA. I now have the desire to finally realize why I had to spend so many years in the battle with sin. I mostly want to resolve this because I want to understand how my Catholic friends might finally come to comprehend the change in my life…and experience the freedom of Christ. There’s a gap between myself and my dearest friends, because they can’t relate. I don’t have any interest in the bars, the parties, and all that stuff…the Lord has taken away those desires for that kind of “fun” and replaced it with an inexpressible joy and desires to serve and honor Him alone! The sad thing, though…is they figure I’ve just “grown up.” They have no idea how deep the change goes, and I’ve had a hard time sharing what has happened for me.

I have a question coming, really!

Here it is: Tell me how this experience looks in the Catholic person’s walk. How has your experience been like this, and how has it been different? I think understanding that might help me.

I have to get some sleep now. SO good night you night owls. Give me lots of good stuff to chew on, and I’ll try to meet with you again soon.

In His Grip,
D. :yawn:

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Doreen:

You simply haven’t made a convincing argument here because if what you’re saying were true, then Jesus would have sat and beat His point into EVERYONE’s head the whole 33 years He walked the planet. Right?

He didn’t have to. None of His true disciples except the ones that left Him after He said that challenged it. Why would Jesus, the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, the Messiah, let His flock leave Him over a simple misunderstanding? The Jews were asking themselves, “how can this man give us His body and Blood to eat and drink”? They left Him after this. His true disciples didn’t leave. No one challeneged this doctrine up and till the reformation and I think the main reason it was challenged at all is because the Protestants thought it was “too Catholic”. Please read:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302sbs.asp
catholic.com/library/who_can_receive_communion.asp

Please read these and prayerfully discern them.

God bless you,

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty Chan:

Ive been thinking about things and reading here and other threads. Everytime something is said about the Eucharist I cannot find anything I disagree on. Except 1 thing and I dont know if its disagreement or that catholics and protestants just dont hear each other. The Flesh and Blood.

If one speaks to a non believer in God about this their impression is we (BOTH groups) are eating and drinking blood. If I was “accused” of drinking Christs blood I would say yes He is my Lord, I identify with Him.

So if I say this to a non believer (and have) I have this feeling there is a prejudiced something or other stopping some kind of understanding between everyone. It cant be this hard to resolve, can it?

so (I think Im lost in these long posts )

1 - So Doreen if you were told by a non believer like I said above what would you say??

2 - and it looks from what everyone is saying that my perception of something stopping this understanding is that protestants dont recognize the catholic church authority??

 

[Wisdom]

Doreen:
Meanwhile, those who broke away from the Church of Rome have determined that there is a supernatural transfiguration that is given to all who believe, and the Lord’s Supper is a ceremony meant to remember this truth…but they look at it as a SPIRITUAL transfiguration of our hearts as we “accept” Christ’s indwelling prescence…

Really? That is way to much of blanket statement you really need to know what other churchs other than your own teach. The Orthodox broke from us their teaching on the eucharist is more or less the same as ours, the Lutheran teaching is close to us as are many Anglicans add that to the catholic church and you have 80 percent of Christianity agreeing or coming very close to the catholic postion these are of course the olderst christian bodies in the world the newer christian bodies would agree with the evangelical postion which while dominant in the united states is the minority opinion when it comes to world christendom and histoically an invention post reformation mainly penned by the Refromer Zwinglii. You have thereore followed a tradition of Man in this case Zwinglii 1600 years after Christ gave his interpretation to John. The disciples of John agreed with the catholic interpreation we know this by the Didache and St Ignatius letters. I suggest you go outside the littel circle of theology your pastor has given you and hit the library.

 

[Doreen]

Semper Fi:

Please read:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302sbs.asp
catholic.com/library/who_can_receive_communion.asp

Please read these and prayerfully discern them.

God bless you,

I clicked on the “this rock” link and here are some quotes that make me question:

**I shouldn’t judge my brother about his beliefs.
The Church makes no judgments about whether any person is a true Christian, not even about its own members. **

Now, while I agree: we can’t know our brother’s hearts…It makes me wonder now: how has the church selected it’s priesthood all these years? I’m serious. What’s the process? Anyone here know?

And secondly…I’m not really sure what to think about the second statement…simply because, while judging others isn’t generally a good thing, I guess I am hoping my church elders are making some judgements about the selection of its leadership. So…now I have a whole new quandry (sp?).

And another quote that surprised me, from This Rock:

it [the church] assumes that all Catholics believe in the Eucharist in the way the Church teaches.

This made me nod my head, thinking, “Right, so this is how I spent approximately 32 years of my life feeling lost in the church.” Now again, go easy here.

I am assuming I am not alone in having had a very vague understanding of the RCC, the church of my youth…and even as a young adult, I couldn’t seem to sort it out…and honestly, you might say, “well, why didn’t you go ask the priest?” and to that, I will say, “I didn’t even know what the question should be!”

Sorry. I know those who haven’t been following my brief history on this site are wondering where this crabby windbag is coming from.

I’ll rest now…and go to the Lord for my comfort.
D. :crying:

 

[Wisdom]

Doreen:

I clicked on the “this rock” link and here are some quotes that make me question:

**I shouldn’t judge my brother about his beliefs.
The Church makes no judgments about whether any person is a true Christian, not even about its own members. **

Now, while I agree: we can’t know our brother’s hearts…It makes me wonder now: how has the church selected it’s priesthood all these years? I’m serious. What’s the process? Anyone here know?

And secondly…I’m not really sure what to think about the second statement…simply because, while judging others isn’t generally a good thing, I guess I am hoping my church elders are making some judgements about the selection of its leadership. So…now I have a whole new quandry (sp?).

And another quote that surprised me, from This Rock:

it [the church] assumes that all Catholics believe in the Eucharist in the way the Church teaches.

This made me nod my head, thinking, “Right, so this is how I spent approximately 32 years of my life feeling lost in the church.” Now again, go easy here.

I am assuming I am not alone in having had a very vague understanding of the RCC, the church of my youth…and even as a young adult, I couldn’t seem to sort it out…and honestly, you might say, “well, why didn’t you go ask the priest?” and to that, I will say, “I didn’t even know what the question should be!”

Sorry. I know those who haven’t been following my brief history on this site are wondering where this crabby windbag is coming from.

I’ll rest now…and go to the Lord for my comfort.
D. :crying:

1970’s cathechetics perhaps?

 

[Tonks40]

Doreen:

My “experience” truly began when I submitted my life to Christ…that is, I finally said, “**Okay, Lord. I keep making a huge mess of things, you go! I’ve learned I can’t make it all right on my own. I give up…i.e. I SURRENDER my life to you! Take it. Take my sins and my shame, and show me the better way.” ** And in doing that, I sincerely sought His truth, I prayed for and soon found wonderful fellowship to keep me accountable, I wholly turned even my thought-life over to Him and said, “I know the devil’s the one trying to tear me down and take me down that dark road again…I don’t wanna go there anymore, Lord, so you have to help me say no!” I had a sincere desire to say “no” to all things that separated me from the Love, care, truth of God.

Now…there was no hocus pocus, but it became a daily act of surrender. I had to make myself a “daily living sacrifice” by saying, “**Put to death the desires of the flesh in me, Lord!” “Take every thought captive, that I might not even sin in my mind!” **

And after doing these things, I found my life slowly but surely being transformed. He challenged me and began to discipline me in areas of weakness until that area was stripped clean, and we’d move on to the next one. This process, which continues today, that I have experienced over the past 8 years, has been a daily walking. It’s been a journey that has had its highs and lows, but as the years have passed the highs keep getting higher and the lows keep getting shallower.

It’s been really amazing. And it is what has brought me to CA. I now have the desire to finally realize why I had to spend so many years in the battle with sin. I mostly want to resolve this because I want to understand how my Catholic friends might finally come to comprehend the change in my life…and experience the freedom of Christ. There’s a gap between myself and my dearest friends, because they can’t relate. I don’t have any interest in the bars, the parties, and all that stuff…the Lord has taken away those desires for that kind of “fun” and replaced it with an inexpressible joy and desires to serve and honor Him alone! The sad thing, though…is they figure I’ve just “grown up.” They have no idea how deep the change goes, and I’ve had a hard time sharing what has happened for me.

I have a question coming, really!

Here it is: Tell me how this experience looks in the Catholic person’s walk. How has your experience been like this, and how has it been different? I think understanding that might help me.

I have to get some sleep now. SO good night you night owls. Give me lots of good stuff to chew on, and I’ll try to meet with you again soon.

In His Grip,
D. :yawn:

Hey Doreen -

You may want to start this as a new thread in the Spirituality section of the forum!

Peace!

 

[Wisdom]

Doreen:
I want to understand how my Catholic friends might finally come to comprehend the change in my life…and experience the freedom of Christ.

Why do you assume that Catholics don’t have freedom in Christ. Perhaps that describes you but not the other billion catholics. That is presumptious to think only protestants can have this freedom to think that one would refuse all christians the first 1500 years did not have this freedom. I really doubt you have found new that other catholics have not stumbled upon first the most exemplary example would be St Augustine his treatise of freedom found in christ though conversion is his book “Confessions” a classic in literature and a great personal testimony. Of course you don’t have to go back that far just read some John Paul 2 or watch a documentary on Mother Terressa and tell me that these people did not know freedom and the love of Christ and then I know you are a liar.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Doreen:

Sorry. I know those who haven’t been following my brief history on this site are wondering where this crabby windbag is coming from.

Well, this is why we are here. You can always order a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which summizes the Faith pretty well. If you are really here searching for answers, give me a PM and I can send you a list of books and other resources which teach a solidly orthodox Catholic Faith. We have been answering your questions, and it just seems to me that you lost Faith in the Church, not that you weren’t taught these things. These things happen, and I’m glad you are here searching for answers. There is a reason the Spirit led you here.

God Bless,

 

[Doreen]

Wisdom:

Why do you assume that Catholics don’t have freedom in Christ. Perhaps that describes you but not the other billion catholics. That is presumptious to think only protestants can have this freedom to think that one would refuse all christians the first 1500 years did not have this freedom. I really doubt you have found new that other catholics have not stumbled upon first the most exemplary example would be St Augustine his treatise of freedom found in christ though conversion is his book “Confessions” a classic in literature and a great personal testimony. Of course you don’t have to go back that far just read some John Paul 2 or watch a documentary on Mother Terressa and tell me that these people did not know freedom and the love of Christ and then I know you are a liar.

Listen, I am not surprised at ALL that those who truly devote themselves to the Lord (in ANY church) come to know the freedom therin…but what about “normal JOE?” in the RCC?

I am saying I KNOW my friends don’t have freedom because they keep living WORLDLY lives. The are STILL “of the world”…how can I judge/determine that? By their actions and the lack of visible FRUIT in their lives.

I am not saying that is true of every “normal Joe” in the RCC…but I have a LARGE family (as most Catholics of my age do…) and I would say 90 percent are still battling sin and generally losing the battle…the 10 percent who are not, are mostly no longer practicing the faith, but have joined other churches, and, though I really can’t think of any right now, I imagine there are a few who still call themselves Catholic and have come to some degree of peace in their lives. As you know, few “normal Joe” Catholics feel this is something worth talking about.

Remember WHAT I JUST DESCRIBED is NOT You --since I am assuming YOU have freedom in Christ (or you wouldn’t carry a moniker like “Wisdom”) …

Another picture of what I am saying:
Last summer I came across a beautiful framed picture of a lone tree (farmers call them “seed trees”) out in a field, and there was room below the tree in the frame on the matting, so I typed up and pasted below this picture the following:

WISDOM (centered)
She is a tree of life to those who embrace her;
those who lay hold of her will be blessed."
Proverbs 3:18

I wrapped this, and gave it to my best friend (who agrees to disagree and asks to no longer discuss matters of faith…she’s Catholic).

I thought it was probably the most beautiful gift I’d ever given this friend of my heart, but when she opened it, the look on her face told a terrible story. She could not receive the words as they were intended. (Note: we are both teachers…I certainly was not giving her this statement as a judgement, but to say, “I know you seek wisdom, and I know you’ll be blessed!” If she were free in Christ, and truly, in her heart embraced wisdom, wouldn’t this have been received as a beautiful gift to a Christian sister?
Well, three times she set the thing down and tried to leave without it. And I kept handing it back to her, and she’d set it back down and talk to someone, and then when she finally did leave that day, she left the gift behind.

After that, I hung it up right in my entry way, so she’d see it when she visited…and take it (it still had some of the gift wrap which my children made on it, so I knew she’d know it was her gift)…
well, she was here twice when we were not home, and she never took it (it was, honestly, placed in her path, so that she could not miss it).

So…why did this WORD of God offend her? I think the devil still has a hold on her heart. NO freedom in Christ. God is like “a consuming fire” to those who aren’t ready to really receive Him (see the Israelites).

That’s just one example of why I believe this…there’s fruit in her life, but she’s also worldly in her thinking as she expresses things.

SO…anyway…i should probably move some of this to a new thread, though it DOES relate to the NORMAL JOE discussion.

Peace In Christ,
D.

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

I am saying I KNOW my friends don’t have freedom because they keep living WORLDLY lives. The are STILL “of the world”…how can I judge/determine that? By their actions and the lack of visible FRUIT in their lives.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Doreen:

I am not saying that is true of every “normal Joe” in the RCC…but I have a LARGE family (as most Catholics of my age do…) and I would say 90 percent are still battling sin and generally losing the battle…

We are all sinners. As believers, we fall, and Jesus picks us up, we fall and Jesus picks us up, we fall, and Jesus picks us up…

Doreen:

I thought it was probably the most beautiful gift I’d ever given this friend of my heart, but when she opened it, the look on her face told a terrible story. She could not receive the words as they were intended. (Note: we are both teachers…I certainly was not giving her this statement as a judgement, but to say, “I know you seek wisdom, and I know you’ll be blessed!” If she were free in Christ, and truly, in her heart embraced wisdom, wouldn’t this have been received as a beautiful gift to a Christian sister?
Well, three times she set the thing down and tried to leave without it. And I kept handing it back to her, and she’d set it back down and talk to someone, and then when she finally did leave that day, she left the gift behind.

Ah yes, but perhaps a seed was planted that will one day bear much fruit.

Doreen:

So…why did this WORD of God offend her? I think the devil still has a hold on her heart. NO freedom in Christ. God is like “a consuming fire” to those who aren’t ready to really receive Him (see the Israelites).
That’s just one example of why I believe this…there’s fruit in her life, but she’s also worldly in her thinking as she expresses things…

Be careful not to judge her, we all have that pesky beam in our eye.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/983.gif

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Doreen:

If we compare the end result, that is, the experiences of partaking of the Eucharist and accepting Christ (as Lord and Savior), would you say there are some likenesses?

The truly devout and discerning Catholic taking the Eucharist experiences a “knowledge” of Christ within…the indwelling of His Spirit (would that be accurate?). Would it be comparable to the concept of submitting one’s life to Christ?
D.

Hi Doreen;

I think the two experiences share one thing in common. That is, both experiences are a communion with God. It is God responding to a person’s desire to bring God into their life. But there are differences in the experience too.

There are fundamental differences between the Catholic and protestant understandings of “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.” Both Catholic and Protestant accept such a deep personal commitment to Christ as necessary and essential to one’s spiritual life, and we all should develop a personal relationship with Christ, for without it we are not headed for salvation. But the fundamental distinction between Catholics and Fundamentalist Christianity on this issue is that under the Protestant understanding (sometimes described as “sola fide”) one is believed to attain *salvation * at the point of “accepting Jesus” - Catholics profess that the acceptance of Christ is the beginning of a lifetime of faith, hope, and charity that if lived in Christ will lead to salvation at the end of one’s earthly life.

So, Catholics attach a great deal of importance to the experiences in which we have a communion with God - the Eucharist, confirmation, or even personal moments when we recommit ourselves to God. But we do not recognize these instants in our life as determinative of our salvation. So, our experiences differ from the fundamentalist experience of being “saved.”

-Peace

 

[Doreen]

Mickey:

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Oh, brother, I DO so love the sinner.

We are all sinners. As believers, we fall, and Jesus picks us up, we fall and Jesus picks us up, we fall, and Jesus picks us up…

To some degree, I accept this…knowing we won’t be perfect as Christ is until we see Him face to face. But I think this is a dangerous theology if it is not expressed that there is to be VICTORY in Christ in THIS life. We should not expect that we can’t overcome our sin life.

In Jesus, WE CAN OVERCOME! For this is why He came. We’ll be tripped up and challenged forever, but we should not think that we can’t overcome our sin. We should find that our falls are shallower and shallower all the time…because we have looked to Him for strength and we’ve asked Him to change our hearts.

Ah yes, but perhaps a seed was planted that will one day bear much fruit.

I am trusting God that many seeds have been planted, and I await with great expectancy the fruit.

Be careful not to judge her, we all have that pesky beam in our eye.

I am ever aware of the plank. It is what brings me to my knees before God every morning.

Thanks friend, for your encouragement and the obvious compassion of your heart.
D.