Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[Wisdom]

Sorry Doreen you don not share in the experience of the real presence in the eucharist. Only an apostolic church can give us that what you have been given in evangelical circles is merly a symbol.
Come back to mother church and you can once again be at the Lord’s table.
You have been so brainwashed to accuse the catholic church as not to have the real presence. Sorry your ignorance of church teaching is getting worse by each post. What you are describing as your experience is not the catholic church but a charicature of it. I suggest you give some serious study to the faith you have rejected and somehow have badly misunderstood. And just becasue you have declared yourself once and for all saved does not make it so. Beware of of standing tall and porud lest you fall.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Dorothy:

An important point to ponder is that Catholics, when they receive the consecrated Bread and Wine are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. And, that is the Risen, Glorious Body of Jesus Christ. If they receive just a crumb of the wafer, or just a drop of the wine they are receiving what I typed above.

Oh thank you Dorothy for responding

Maybe because I was not brought up in a particular church and have attended various faiths including catholic with my best friend, I see things a bit differently, I dont know. Im so glad you answered me as this is so interesting.

What you say I have no problem with, even agree with. Ive even answered to a non believer that yea its the blood but its not like a caniabal or vampire. I think theres something to do with that thinking thats blocking a truth of what you are saying.

Face it, its about the blood. As “gross” as it sounds to us “civilized” people about town now there was sacrifice in the old Temple. Other religions also require sacrifice, but none of them had their god stop it. Only Christ stopped it by offering Himself. You may laugh but I finally saw Narnia this week and I cried (softly so I didnt upset the kids in front) when Aslan offered himself.

Why blood I dont know, it just seems a requirement some how. I just know thats the way it seems to be, I take it as one of those mysteries we will know one day, but not now. (for those who read this and wonder what we are on about)

Because what you said is what I understand, but I cant seem to figure on this “arguement” do catholics envision the wafer as body? it seems to me protestants do too. Maybe I just dont know these histories enough to “get” the arguement.

 

[Dorothy]

Kitty Chan:

Oh thank you Dorothy for responding

Maybe because I was not brought up in a particular church and have attended various faiths including catholic with my best friend, I see things a bit differently, I dont know. Im so glad you answered me as this is so interesting.

What you say I have no problem with, even agree with. Ive even answered to a non believer that yea its the blood but its not like a caniabal or vampire. I think theres something to do with that thinking thats blocking a truth of what you are saying.

Face it, its about the blood. As “gross” as it sounds to us “civilized” people about town now there was sacrifice in the old Temple. Other religions also require sacrifice, but none of them had their god stop it. Only Christ stopped it by offering Himself. You may laugh but I finally saw Narnia this week and I cried (softly so I didnt upset the kids in front) when Aslan offered himself.

Why blood I dont know, it just seems a requirement some how. I just know thats the way it seems to be, I take it as one of those mysteries we will know one day, but not now. (for those who read this and wonder what we are on about)

Because what you said is what I understand, but I cant seem to figure on this “arguement” do catholics envision the wafer as body? it seems to me protestants do too. Maybe I just dont know these histories enough to “get” the arguement.

Hi Kitty, thanks for responding.

Bottom line is that it is a Sacred Mystery, and we, not being God, will not fully understand the “how” of this extraordinary gift, but are to receive it in faith like trusting children.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Maybe thats why I have no problem with it and probably dont “get” what the arguement is.

It seems protestants are doing something wrong in a catholic eye and everytime its explained just what each is doing I cant find something “wrong”. Thanks Dorothy.

 

[Dorothy]

Kitty Chan:

Maybe thats why I have no problem with it and probably dont “get” what the arguement is.

It seems protestants are doing something wrong in a catholic eye and everytime its explained just what each is doing I cant find something “wrong”. Thanks Dorothy.

But, there is a difference, and it is frustrating that what we are explaining is not understood.

 

[Huguenot]

Dorothy:

But, there is a difference, and it is frustrating that what we are explaining is not understood.

I suppose it depends with whom you are talking because some Protestants do believe in Christ’s real presence in the consecrated bread and wine, for example Lutherans …

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

I suppose it depends with whom you are talking because some Protestants do believe in Christ’s real presence in the consecrated bread and wine, for example Lutherans …

. . . and so do Anglicans. Anglicans do not define the nature of the Presence but it is my understanding that Lutherans believe that the Body is present “with” the elements (consubstantiation) and that Jesus is no longer present when the liturgy is finished. .

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Huguenot:

I suppose it depends with whom you are talking because some Protestants do believe in Christ’s real presence in the consecrated bread and wine, for example Lutherans …

ahh Huguenot so Im a Lutheren ??

Im sure its that basic thing we spoke of earlier, because everytime I ask someone what its about I dont disagree. But it keeps coming back that protestants dont really understand. But it seems I do arghhhhh (Im ok now)

What say you we seem to connect in other areas.

 

[Dorothy]

Huguenot:

I suppose it depends with whom you are talking because some Protestants do believe in Christ’s real presence in the consecrated bread and wine, for example Lutherans …

Yes, I am aware that Lutherans believe that. They believe that he is present when being given to the members, and any bread left over is just bread. And, in them sincerely believing that I certainly don’t doubt that they are blessed and given the graces they need for their spiritual journey.

Catholic believe that the Lord is present in the remaining consecrated bread, and that is why it is kept in the tabernacle with the red lamp lit near it, to remind us of His Eucharistic Presence. The remaining consecrated wine is consumed by the priest.

We also believe that when Jesus said to the apostles “Do this in memory of me” that they were consecrated as priests at that time. Apostolic succession begins there, and Bishops down through the ages consecrate new priests. That is why the Orthodox Church that broke away from the Catholic Church have what we call a valid Eucharist, because it was a bishop that broke away, and a bishop can consecrate new priests who can then continue to confect the Eucharist.

 

[Doreen]

Dorothy:

Catholic believe that the Lord is present in the remaining consecrated bread, and that is why it is kept in the tabernacle with the red lamp lit near it, to remind us of His Eucharistic Presence. The remaining consecrated wine is consumed by the priest.

So…this explains all the “reverence” and quiet in the Catholic church building, then. Right? The reason we’d genuflect before entering a pew and seating ourselves would be because we know Christ’s presence is in the front of the room?

If so, here’s the way the devil uses it against us…many figure, “The presence is IN the church…in that box” … so … “what I do out of the building, out in the real world, doesn’t matter much.”

Would it be fair to say, many don’t “get” that if they’ve taken communion, the presence is now inside them?

Now, I am sure that’s not what the church teaches (that the Lord is only in the building)…but is it accurate to say that many feel the only time they have to keep their behavior in check is when they walk in the doors?

I am sure this is the case for many protestant believers as well, by the way…to put on their best church face on Sunday in fellowship. Too few take the command to “follow me” seriously…we allow “life” to get in the way of really being daily in His presence.

So…to return to the OP’s question…this may be why many protestant churches have had to down - play the Eucharist. Because, unfortunately it becomes as an idol to some who don’t understand the reality of a living Christ. Anyone think that may be how things have evolved?

So…that leads to the other part of the theology of partaking of Christ…Which comes first? … the good behavior/transformation or the partaking?

Would a Catholic say, I felt called to communion with Christ, I prayerfully accepted the sacrament, and THEN my heart was changed, and I had no desire to sin as I had before?

Or does a Catholic say, I must be good and not sin THEN I am worthy to go accept the sacrament? And unless I accept it each Sunday, I will fall back into my sinful nature?

I understand now that the Catholic teaching is that the bread and wine are transformed, but what about the heart of the partaking soul? Is transformation expected for each who receive the sacrament?

Thanks, in advance, for your insights on this. D.

 

[Dorothy]

Doreen:

So…this explains all the “reverence” and quiet in the Catholic church building, then. Right? The reason we’d genuflect before entering a pew and seating ourselves would be because we know Christ’s presence is in the front of the room?

If so, here’s the way the devil uses it against us…many figure, “The presence is IN the church…in that box” … so … “what I do out of the building, out in the real world, doesn’t matter much.”

Would it be fair to say, many don’t “get” that if they’ve taken communion, the presence is now inside them?

Now, I am sure that’s not what the church teaches (that the Lord is only in the building)…but is it accurate to say that many feel the only time they have to keep their behavior in check is when they walk in the doors?

I am sure this is the case for many protestant believers as well, by the way…to put on their best church face on Sunday in fellowship. Too few take the command to “follow me” seriously…we allow “life” to get in the way of really being daily in His presence.

So…to return to the OP’s question…this may be why many protestant churches have had to down - play the Eucharist. Because, unfortunately it becomes as an idol to some who don’t understand the reality of a living Christ. Anyone think that may be how things have evolved?

So…that leads to the other part of the theology of partaking of Christ…Which comes first? … the good behavior/transformation or the partaking?

Would a Catholic say, I felt called to communion with Christ, I prayerfully accepted the sacrament, and THEN my heart was changed, and I had no desire to sin as I had before?

Or does a Catholic say, I must be good and not sin THEN I am worthy to go accept the sacrament? And unless I accept it each Sunday, I will fall back into my sinful nature?

I understand now that the Catholic teaching is that the bread and wine are transformed, but what about the heart of the partaking soul? Is transformation expected for each who receive the sacrament?

Thanks, in advance, for your insights on this. D.

The one who receives the Eucharist must prepare his/her heart and have the right disposition…or no transformation at all will take place in him. We will have to answer to the Lord for our omissions, lack of prayerfulness, lack of preparedness, mediocre attitude. But, the reality of the Lord’s presence remains.

The parable of the seed falling on hard ground comes to mind. We must cultivate the “soil” of our soul so that in receiving the Lord in the Eucharist we are receptive to what He wants to give us.

All of us are in different places spiritually on our journey with the Lord. So, I shouldn’t judge the person who I see lose their temper and raise their voice after leaving the Mass. I don’t know what kind of spiritual battles they are fighting…and they may be well aware of their weakness and are struggling with it. I have to be aware of my own weaknesses and willingly submit myself to the Lord for his healing and grace in this Sacrament.

As long as we are alive in the flesh we will all struggle with sin, whether big or small, and should be allowing the Lord to transform us more and more into His likeness. We have to die to ourselves every day. So, our attitude in receiving the Eucharist should be that we depend on the Lord for all things and for Him to act in us and change us. Obviously this transformation doesn’t happen overnight. :>)

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[mercygate]

Doreen:

So…this explains all the “reverence” and quiet in the Catholic church building, then. Right? The reason we’d genuflect before entering a pew and seating ourselves would be
because we know Christ’s presence is in the front of the room?

Bingo!

If so, here’s the way the devil uses it against us…many figure, “The presence is IN the church…in that box” … so … “what I do out of the building, out in the real world, doesn’t matter much.”

Would it be fair to say, many don’t “get” that if they’ve taken communion, the presence is now inside them?

People know that Christ is present in the Sacrament. The ‘God in the box’ thing is too stupid for words but critics of the Real Presence try to mount that as an argument against it. A Catholic would look at you like you had 3 heads if you accused him of believing that God is limited to “the box.”

Now, I am sure that’s not what the church teaches (that the Lord is only in the building)…but is it accurate to say that many feel the only time they have to keep their behavior in check is when they walk in the doors?

I am sure this is the case for many protestant believers as well, by the way…to put on their best church face on Sunday in fellowship. Too few take the command to “follow me” seriously…we allow “life” to get in the way of really being daily in His presence.

Yup. Catholics don’t have a lock on that one. We share.

So…to return to the OP’s question…this may be why many protestant churches have had to down - play the Eucharist. Because, unfortunately it becomes as an idol to some who don’t understand the reality of a living Christ. Anyone think that may be how things have evolved?

I believe Protestants downplay the Eucharist because they do not have the Eucharist the way the Apostolic churches have it. They cannot have it and they know it, so they develop a whole parallel theology that diminishes it.

So…that leads to the other part of the theology of partaking of Christ…Which comes first? … the good behavior/transformation or the partaking?

Would a Catholic say, I felt called to communion with Christ, I prayerfully accepted the sacrament, and THEN my heart was changed, and I had no desire to sin as I had before?

Or does a Catholic say, I must be good and not sin THEN I am worthy to go accept the sacrament? And unless I accept it each Sunday, I will fall back into my sinful nature?

All of the above. We have a living relationship with Jesus Christ, partly through the sacraments. We are never “worthy” – we say the words of the Centurion right before we receive: “Lord I am not worthy . . .”

I understand now that the Catholic teaching is that the bread and wine are transformed, but what about the heart of the partaking soul? Is transformation expected for each who receive the sacrament?

Yes. The Sacrament is real and it is EFFECTIVE: it DOES something. According to Fr. John Hardon’s Catechism, "to receive FRUITFULLY, a person must first of all be living in friendship with God – living in the state of grace. Otherwise, so far from benefiting from Holy Communion, a person commits a sacrilege. And in St. Paul’s words, such a person “Draws condemnation on Himself”.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Dorothy:

The one who receives the Eucharist must prepare his/her heart and have the right disposition…or no transformation at all will take place in him. We will have to answer to the Lord for our omissions, lack of prayerfulness, lack of preparedness, mediocre attitude. But, the reality of the Lord’s presence remains.

As long as we are alive in the flesh we will all struggle with sin, whether big or small, and should be allowing the Lord to transform us more and more into His likeness. We have to die to ourselves every day. So, our attitude in receiving the Eucharist should be that we depend on the Lord for all things and for Him to act in us and change us. Obviously this transformation doesn’t happen overnight. :>)

Peace,

Dorothy

yet again Dorothy I agree and amen. you remind me of what Larry Norman says " Read your Bible and die everday"

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

. . . and so do Anglicans. Anglicans do not define the nature of the Presence but it is my understanding that Lutherans believe that the Body is present “with” the elements (consubstantiation) and that Jesus is no longer present when the liturgy is finished. .

I don’t know if Lutherans believe the Body is no longer present when the liturgy is finished ; I’m Evangelical and for us the Lord’s Supper is a symbol…

 

[Huguenot]

Kitty Chan:

ahh Huguenot so Im a Lutheren ??

Im sure its that basic thing we spoke of earlier, because everytime I ask someone what its about I dont disagree. But it keeps coming back that protestants dont really understand. But it seems I do arghhhhh (Im ok now)

What say you we seem to connect in other areas.

I said “Lutherans FOR EXAMPLE”, so it doesn’t mean that any Protestant who believes in the Real Presence is a Lutherans …
I don’t believe in it because nobody has been able, until now, to explain how it can comply with Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 that explains that Jesus has sacrificed Himself ONCE ; the Eucharist is considered by Catholics as a renewal of His sacrifice ( that is at least what they have told me on French Catholic forums ) ; can there be a real presence without the renewal of this sacrifice ???
( I don’t understand the Lutherans’ position either … )

 

[Huguenot]

Dorothy:

Yes, I am aware that Lutherans believe that. They believe that he is present when being given to the members, and any bread left over is just bread. And, in them sincerely believing that I certainly don’t doubt that they are blessed and given the graces they need for their spiritual journey.

Catholic believe that the Lord is present in the remaining consecrated bread, and that is why it is kept in the tabernacle with the red lamp lit near it, to remind us of His Eucharistic Presence. The remaining consecrated wine is consumed by the priest.

We also believe that when Jesus said to the apostles “Do this in memory of me” that they were consecrated as priests at that time. Apostolic succession begins there, and Bishops down through the ages consecrate new priests. That is why the Orthodox Church that broke away from the Catholic Church have what we call a valid Eucharist, because it was a bishop that broke away, and a bishop can consecrate new priests who can then continue to confect the Eucharist.

But I also believe that God gives me the necessary graces for my journey even if I don’t believe in the real presence ; otherwise I wouldn’t be a Christian any longer ; I’ve been a Christian for about 30 years ( even a bit more ) although I come from an atheist background, all the rest of my family are either agnostics or atheists, at some periods I’ve had a lot of pressures from them to renounce my faith, if I held fast it is because God gives me what is necessary…
Not believing in the real presence doesn’t mean we don’t have fellowship with the Lord : He said that where 2 or 3 people meet in His name, He is with us …
And I believe that, it is true when we meet in church, whether we commemorate Jesus’s death with the Lord’s Supper or not, it is true if I meet a friend and we decide to pray, wherever we are, in a wood , in my home or in his/ hers ; we have fellowship with Him when we pray alone to, when we read the Bible and so on …
Even if we don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, we are very serious too when we commemorate His death, we examine ourselves in front of Him , we are not “superficial” contrary to what some of you seem to think …

 

[Dorothy]

Huguenot:

But I also believe that God gives me the necessary graces for my journey even if I don’t believe in the real presence ; otherwise I wouldn’t be a Christian any longer ; I’ve been a Christian for about 30 years ( even a bit more ) although I come from an atheist background, all the rest of my family are either agnostics or atheists, at some periods I’ve had a lot of pressures from them to renounce my faith, if I held fast it is because God gives me what is necessary…
Not believing in the real presence doesn’t mean we don’t have fellowship with the Lord : He said that where 2 or 3 people meet in His name, He is with us …
And I believe that, it is true when we meet in church, whether we commemorate Jesus’s death with the Lord’s Supper or not, it is true if I meet a friend and we decide to pray, wherever we are, in a wood , in my home or in his/ hers ; we have fellowship with Him when we pray alone to, when we read the Bible and so on …
Even if we don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, we are very serious too when we commemorate His death, we examine ourselves in front of Him , we are not “superficial” contrary to what some of you seem to think …

I thought I made it clear in my first paragraph that Christians who do not believe in the Real Presence who are sincere in their faith are certainly given the graces they need for their spiritual journey.
I don’t think of their worship as “superficial” as that would be judging. But, of course, I hope that someday we can “all be one” in our beliefs.

 

[Dorothy]

Huguenot:

I said “Lutherans FOR EXAMPLE”, so it doesn’t mean that any Protestant who believes in the Real Presence is a Lutherans …
I don’t believe in it because nobody has been able, until now, to explain how it can comply with Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 that explains that Jesus has sacrificed Himself ONCE ; the Eucharist is considered by Catholics as a renewal of His sacrifice ( that is at least what they have told me on French Catholic forums ) ; can there be a real presence without the renewal of this sacrifice ???
( I don’t understand the Lutherans’ position either … )

I’m not sure if I misunderstand you or not, but I just wanted to add that Catholics believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was sacrificed once, for all, and that the Mass is bringing us to that moment; it is broken up in time and space for us!

 

[Huguenot]

Dorothy:

I thought I made it clear in my first paragraph that Christians who do not believe in the Real Presence who are sincere in their faith are certainly given the graces they need for their spiritual journey.
I don’t think of their worship as “superficial” as that would be judging. But, of course, I hope that someday we can “all be one” in our beliefs.

Thanks for this precision, maybe I’ve misunderstood you or mixed you up with someone else …

 

[Huguenot]

Dorothy:

I’m not sure if I misunderstand you or not, but I just wanted to add that Catholics believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was sacrificed once, for all, and that the Mass is bringing us to that moment; it is broken up in time and space for us!

Then it means that you agree with me that the Eucharist is a symbol ???
or I don’t understand …
I went to a midnight mass with some members of my family and a Catholic friend, after consecrating the host and the wine, at a moment the priest said something like “the sacrifice we are offering You” (talking to God ), what does it mean then if it is not considered as a renewal of Christ’s sacrifice ? ( One of the atheist members of my family even startled when she heard that … )
On the French forums I am talking on, the Catholics INSIST on this renewal all the time …