Protestant argument to Presence

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Adonia,

The disciples were certainly not considered experts but the Pharisees were considered “experts.” Yet they didn’t recognize God in flesh when he stood right in front of their eyes.

Prayer Warrior,

Does God dwell in something made by the hand of a human or does he dwell in something created by Himself such as our bodies being His temple?
 
Adonia,

When Christians participate in the Lord’s Supper we do it in remembrance of the sacrifice Christ made for us. The bread represents the body of Christ, and the wine represents the blood sacrificed to cover our sins. This verse and the verses in John do not teach that the bread is the literal flesh of Jesus, and the wine is the literal blood of Christ.
 
The Jews thought that Jesus was referring to the Jewish temple, but as you read further it becomes obvious he was referring to His body.
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                                    Jesus makes several *I Am*                     statements in the book of John alone that are good examples                     of the symbolic nature of some scripture. 

                                                            1.  I am the bread of life (John                       6:35)

                                        2.  I am the light of the world                       (John 8:12)

                                        3.  I am the door (John 10:9)

                                        4.  I am the good shepherd (John                       10:11)

                                        5.  I am the resurrection and the                       life (John 11:25)

                                        6.  I am the way, the truth, and                       the life (John 14:6)

                                        7.  I am the vine.

                                                        All of these statements tell us                     something about the nature of Jesus, however Jesus is not a                     literal door that opens when we ask to receive Him.  He is no                     more a literal grape vine than he is a loaf of bread, and He                     does not become either.
 
Prayer Warrior,
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Does God dwell in something made by the hand of a human or does he dwell in something created by Himself such as our bodies being His temple?
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God “dwells in light” (1 Tim. 6:16; 1 John 1:7), in heaven (Ps. 123:1), in His church (Zion) (Ps. 9:11). Christ dwelt on earth in the days of his humiliation (John 1:14). He now dwells in the hearts of his people (Eph. 3:17-19). The Holy Spirit dwells in believers (1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14, Rom 8:9).

Catholics don’t believe that God “dwells” in the bread and wine. We believe He IS the bread and the wine after it is consecrated. Take this and eat it, this is my body (Mt 26:26). We don’t believe that the “man made bread” is a mini God house that He dwells in.
 
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Contarini:
This was one of Zwingli’s stupider ideas, rooted in his Neo-Platonic approach to life. This misinterpretation of “spirit vs. flesh” as “immaterial vs. material” is the greatest curse of Protestantism.

Sorry for hijacking your thread–I respond only because I am a Protestant, but one who believes that Luther was a lot more on target than Zwingli on this issue.

Edwin
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If I might continue your hi-jacking… 🙂​

ISTM that RC convictions are not going to be upset by that verse, or by any combo of verses - and that the same goes for Protestant, or any other, convictions.

If a passage, or verse, or word, changes convictions, it’s because that word speaks with unusual power, either toconfirm faith - or to undermine it.

What I think does not happen, is that one reads or hears a word so as to be changed by it merely because the word has been encountered by the reader.

IOW - people’s ideas change, not because of the material existence of the word, but because they encounter it speaking to the depths of their being. And the change happens, because they have been prepared for that change. People don’t switch on being Catholic, or being Protestant, or being anything else - we are not electric lights; we are organic beings, with histories and experiences which have come together in a particular way in each of us.

So what one person experiences a mighty word from God, is not experienced in that way by another person, or not in that way or at that time or to that degree.

So what undermines or strengthens faith in one person, has a different effect on another. God is the same - the difference is made by the differences in those who hear.
So one person is affected by “Catholic-sounding” verses, and another, by “Protestant-sounding” ones.

And people have different attractions: some see Catholicism in relation to the BVM, for others everything “comes together” by being seen in relation to predestination, or the mystery of the Church, or the Righteousness of God. So one faith, is internalised in many different ways, all of which are valid, none of which is exhaustive.

As to Zwingli - what he spoke as he did, can’t be understood without appreciating why he did so. So what are the reasons, what was his understanding of the Christian “thing”, which led to his understanding the Words of Institution as he did ? ##
 
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Alfie:
Well, how about “thou shalt not be a vampire or a cannibal”. All this stuff about eating the flesh and drinking the blood gives me the willies.
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Two things 1) the sacrifices of the alter were eatin even in the pre christian days by the jewish priests.
  1. Jesus said to do it. Who really understands half the stuff he said other than through faith glasses. he said it, we do it. This teaching is so hard to grasp that he lost most of his diciples that day. Just like most will deny the church to this day because of that teaching. It is one of the teachings that i truly love (and i don’t know why) but the Mass is only complete with it. Otherwise its like chicken/no rice, hamburger/no bun etc etc. Hard to explain.
There are many teachigns i don’t agree with, but that is one i love.

I have been going to a protestant church. The sermons really affect my heart and life. I get a ton out of them. However the communion service is lacking.

With the way they do it, no wonder they don’t understand the Eucharist. I felt like alittle kid eating a flavorless cracker and a sip of grape juice.

felt VERY counterfeit, sorry if this offends but that is how it felt.
 
Hello, thank you all for your comments. I would love to argue with some of the ideas brought up in this thread by protestants. However, I am not interested in arguing these issues. Specifically, I am wondering about John 6:63, and only John 6:63. You are all knoweledgable and i respect that greatly, however, I am looking into the faith of protestants that use this to disbelieve the Eucharist… Anything pertaining to this would help. Thank you.
 
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neweyes:
The Word is the flesh. It says so in John 1:1
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In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. John 1:1

Do you see any flesh there?
 
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blessedrosary:
…wondering about John 6:63…
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63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is
of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and
life. John 6:63 NAB

Commentary in my NAB bible;
  • "Spirit . . . flesh*: probably not a reference to the
    eucharistic body of Jesus but to the supernatural and the
    natural, as in John 3:6. Spirit and life: all Jesus said about
    the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit."
6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 KJV

No commentary ^​

62: Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. John 6:63 RSV-SCE

Commentary in my RSV-SCE bible
6:62: When Jesus ascends into heaven they will know that he spoke the truth.

The truth is so obvious to me in John 6:53-58.​

63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. John 6:63-64 Douay-Rheims Bible

Commentary in my D-R bible;
63 "If then you shall see"… Christ by mentioning his ascension, by this instance of his power and divinity, would confirm the truth of what he had before asserted; and at the same time correct their gross apprehension of eating his flesh, and drinking his blood, in a vulgar and carnal manner, by letting them know he should take his whole body living with him to heaven; and consequently not suffer it to be as they supposed, divided, mangled, and consumed upon earth.

64 "The flesh profiteth nothing"… Dead flesh separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ,) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacarament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us.

64 "Are spirit and life"… By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.​

My commentary with the Holy Spirit on my side & as a Faithful Catholic;
The Spirit makes it possible!
That could be two things;
  1. The Holy Spirit comes upon the bread to make it possible as the Priest consecrates the bread & wine and prays over them.
  2. The Holy Spirit comes upon us to make us believe that the Eucharist is indeed Jesus!
We as humans “in the flesh” with our “flesh/human” understanding cannot believe that the piece of bread can be the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ.
However, if we have the Holy Spirit we will be believers. With the gift of Faith that comes to those who are open to the Truth of the Faith, you shall believe! Jesus says in verse 47, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.” Then right away in verse 48 He says that He is the bread of life. So to me that says if you believe that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist you will have eternal life. Not only believe however, but partake in it also.
But your heart has to be OPEN to the grace that you need in order to believe. Ask God for the GRACE to believe! Say to God, “Is that you Jesus?” Don’t be afraid to ask if that is indeed Him.

Jesus is in all the Tabernacles of the world in every Catholic Church. If you know of a Catholic church, go inside and pray. Just take a chance. I will pray for you too. :gopray2:
 
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santaro75:
…It is one of the teachings that i truly love (and i don’t know why) but the Mass is only complete with it. Otherwise its like chicken/no rice, hamburger/no bun etc etc. Hard to explain.
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The Mass without the Eucharist I guess could be like a Protestant service. But even so, NOT like a Protestant service. The songs, especially Gregorian Chant which I love very much, are definitely NOT Protestant. The reverance that the Gospel gets when it’s time to read from the Gospel is grand!
Even the Liturgy of the Word without the Liturgy of the Eucharist is beautiful depending on the Catholic church you attend. But I know what you mean. I would not want to have Mass without the Eucharist.
 
I also have a KJV, DR, and NAB study bibles. It is just marvelous that in the KJV when a scripture supports the Catholic position there is either ZERO commentary or it is completely twisted and taken out of context. 😦
 
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JoeyWarren:
I also have a KJV, DR, and NAB study bibles. It is just marvelous that in the KJV when a scripture supports the Catholic position there is either ZERO commentary or it is completely twisted and taken out of context. 😦
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You noticed that too? 😃
 
If you are a Protestant and are partaking of the “bread & wine” in your church, it will ONLY be a “symbol” because you don’t have a Catholic Priest who stands in succession of the apostles and in the person of Jesus Christ to consecrate the bread & wine so that they can become the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ. That is why you will hear the Priest say, "This is my body… this is my blood… because that is really Jesus and the Priest is standing “[In Persona Christi](http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/brown/columns/(name removed by moderator)ersona.htm).”

Most converts come to the Catholic church for the Eucharist because they BELIEVE!!!
 
I found this other website that talks about “In Persona Christi.” I will just copy & paste here;

’In the person of Christ’​

In the confessional, as the priest gives absolution,
he says, ‘I absolve you of your sins’.
He does not say Jesus Christ absolves you of your sins.
The priest is acting in the person of Christ,
‘In Persona Christi’.

Think about this for a minute, as it is an awesome truth.
During the consecration of the host, the priest says,
‘This is MY Body’.
He does not say, this is the Body of Christ.
The priest is acting in the person of Christ,
’In Persona Christi’.

Again it is almost incomprehensible, that it is possible for any human person to act in the person of Christ.
However, it is a teaching of the Church,
and is therefore to be believed.
What we do not realize is that GOD has given each one of us a specific talent of one kind or another, and if we in turn give that talent back to GOD in His service,
then each one of us is acting
’In Persona Christi’.

What could be more rewarding to anyone than to know that when we give back to GOD the fruits of the talents He has given to us, we are doing it
’In Persona Christi’?

"Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything,
I have done for your sakes, in the person of Christ." 2 Corinthians 2:10​

Isn’t that AWESOME?!!!
 
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julebenn:
The Jews thought that Jesus was referring to the Jewish temple, but as you read further it becomes obvious he was referring to His body.

Jesus makes several I Am statements in the book of John alone that are good examples of the symbolic nature of some scripture.
  1. I am the bread of life (John 6:35)
  2. I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
  3. I am the door (John 10:9)
  4. I am the good shepherd (John 10:11)
  5. I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25)
  6. I am the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)
  7. I am the vine.
All of these statements tell us something about the nature of Jesus, however Jesus is not a literal door that opens when we ask to receive Him. He is no more a literal grape vine than he is a loaf of bread, and He does not become either.
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“this is my body” “this is my blood” are not “I AM” statements
 
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JoshuaJ:
Adonia,

The disciples were certainly not considered experts but the Pharisees were considered “experts.” Yet they didn’t recognize God in flesh when he stood right in front of their eyes.

Prayer Warrior,

Does God dwell in something made by the hand of a human or does he dwell in something created by Himself such as our bodies being His temple?
Click to expand...
I like those words you just wrote: “Yet they didn’t recognize…”. Could YOU be doing this when it comes to the REAL PRESENCE? I love you friend, and only want for you the FULLNESS of what Our Lord gave us. I can’t force you to accept this. Pray on it. Remember “This IS my Body…” Perhaps a bit of meditation on that passage will help.
 
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JoshuaJ:
Adonia,
The disciples were certainly not considered experts but the Pharisees were considered “experts.” Yet they didn’t recognize God in flesh when he stood right in front of their eyes.
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Then you must be an “expert” too. Jesus is in the tabernacles of all the Catholic Churches all over the world, and in the monstrance when Jesus is exposed to us as the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Altar and yet you don’t recognize Him.

The disciples on the other hand recognized Jesus at the breaking of the bread.
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JoshuaJ:
Does God dwell in something made by the hand of a human or does he dwell in something created by Himself such as our bodies being His temple?
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You know God dwells in us. We are temples of the Holy Spirit. But God dwells in us also because we partake of the one loaf that is Jesus Christ, in the Eucharist. In my opinion, Jesus doesn’t “dwell” in the host the way that you think. That’s Luther’s idea with “Consubstantiation.” When we eat of His Body & Soul He dwells in us. He doesn’t “dwell” in the host, He is the host; the host is Jesus.

Just like you and I don’t “dwell” in our bodies. We dwell in our homes. My soul “dwells” in my body. BUT I am not just a soul. I have a body. So I am my body & soul. They are not separate. A body without a soul is a corpse. I don’t know if you’re understanding what I am trying to say here. You cannot say that we say that Jesus “dwells” in the host. We do not say that He dwells in the host because that is not a host after the consecration. That is Jesus.

Whether bread can be converted into the body of Christ. Please click the link and read… very interesting.
 
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