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mcq72
Guest
The half of Christendom did not come to a differing opinion by voting.
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M
mcq72
Guest
"Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power;:
Did he not say this in On The Unity Of The Church?
https://www.pseudepigraph.us/2015/10/01/the-church-fathers-on-papal-supremacy-st-cyprian/
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Were they right?
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Gorgias
Guest
Right. They did it by leaving the Church. (Jesus didn’t quite think that leaving was a good idea, either, although He allowed folks to do it, knowing the consequences to them.)
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ArchStanton
Guest
You are quoting this Cyprian?
Cyprian
The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments , can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity , does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son , does not hold life and salvation ( On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [ A.D. 251 ]).
Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built , teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor . Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop ; and if anyone be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church , and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests , and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided , but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another ( Letters 66 [ A.D. 253 ]).
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TULIPed
Guest
I presume this method is reserved only for the Magisterium then?
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Gorgias
Guest
As long as God has entrusted them with authority? Sure. Are you claiming that the Apostles were wrong when they drew lots, or the Jews weren’t following God when they relied on Urim and Thummim?
On the other hand, when Hebrews rose up against Moses and decided that they wanted to do things their own way, are you saying that this was good ? (God had a different perspective on “we’re gonna do what we want, not what you want, God”, as the Bible demonstrates.)
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TULIPed
Guest
Not claiming anything. Just making sure I understand where the democratic method is ok and where it’s not.As long as God has entrusted them with authority? Sure. Are you claiming that the Apostles were wrong when they drew lots, or the Jews weren’t following God when they relied on Urim and Thummim?
On the other hand, when Hebrews rose up against Moses and decided that they wanted to do things their own way, are you saying that this was good ? (God had a different perspective on “we’re gonna do what we want, not what you want, God”, as the Bible demonstrates.)
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mcq72
Guest
Takes two to tango.
Didache says. “don’t cause a schism, (which apparently is easier than) to pacify those that contend.”
Jesus also said beware of bad doctrine, coming from the seat of Moses, of which we are told is now the chair of Peter.
It’s not like no voice of correction, reform or another voice was not heard at any given time.
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ArchStanton
Guest
Not sure you are reading it correctly …
Mt 23:2-3 The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses . Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you , but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
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mcq72
Guest
History of our churches are a long way off from Cyprian. The context would dictate just how it applies or does not to today, or even a mikennua ago etc…
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mcq72
Guest
Lol…it’s always those other guys, the church down the street that has it all wrong
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ArchStanton
Guest
‘…and I will build my CHURCH’
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mcq72
Guest
For sure we don’t want be like Korah, just as we don’t want to like those that persecuted,ignored true prophets/ teachers of God.
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mcq72
Guest
We have been over this cherry pick.
“Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees”
Mat16:12
So for the most part we do obey the chair of Peter. Some P churches are very Catholic, save the one point of papacy.
It is conditional when to obey authority or chair of Peter. It has to be right, bindable in heaven.
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PatK63
Guest
@BartholomewB @dochawk
But Was not Judas replaced In Acts? If they had a replacement for Judas isn’t it reasonable they replaced the others when they died?
But Was not Judas replaced In Acts? If they had a replacement for Judas isn’t it reasonable they replaced the others when they died?
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Gorgias
Guest
Especially when one decides that they no longer want to follow, but to lead.
A couple of thoughts:
- Look at the Greek: it’s bad teaching, not doctrine. Am I being pedantic? I don’t think so – the pharisees taught “traditions of men” which weren’t ‘doctrine’, as such (e.g., ‘korban’). I think it’s reasonable to interpret Jesus’ words as applying to these non-doctrinal teachings.
- The ‘seat of Moses’ is not “now the chair of Peter.” However, it serves an illustrative purpose – God-given authority is God-given authority. Full stop. If you want to break from that authority, you’re no longer part of the assembly which was divinely founded.
- Bad prudential judgment (i.e., ‘teaching’, not ‘doctrine’) can come from the Church. We don’t assert otherwise. All we assert is that there is protection from error in terms of “faith and morals.” Do you want to complain that Pope Francis’ admonition to stop using A/C is imprudent? Fine. Do you want to complain that the Eucharist is what the Church declares it to be? Well… that’s a horse of a whole 'nother color.
Did Jesus found the “church down the street”? Nope. They’re not wrong because they’re “down the street”. They are at risk for being wrong because they left the Church that Jesus founded.
You wanna root for the USFL? The XFL? The AAF? Have at it. I’m gonna stick with the ‘league’ that Jesus founded.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Hypocrisy is the leaven of the Pharisees.
In the meantime, when so many thousands of the multitude had gathered together that they trod upon one another, he began to say to his disciples first, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
Luke 12:1 RSV
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Gorgias
Guest
LOL!
OK… here’s your heuristic:
- if you’re operating in the Church God founded and to which He gave divine authority, then you’re good
- if you’re operating outside of the Church, and want to take a vote on doctrine… well, good luck with that.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Yes, they picked Matthias to fill Judas’ place, and he was added to the eleven surviving apostles (Acts 1:26). Your analogy would suggest that when Peter died, the eleven survivors may perhaps have picked a new apostle so that, once again, the number would still be twelve. But it doesn’t suggest that the newly elected replacement would immediately become the head of the Church.
I believe that Linus succeeded Peter, becoming the second pope. But I don’t base that belief on Acts 1:26, and I certainly wouldn’t expect a Protestant to change his mind on the strength of that analogy.
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