Protestant Authority

[East_Anglican]

Well, again, this thread is about *Protestant *authority, but I will say that Catholics appeal to apostolic succession. That, of course, is another topic for another thread.

OK

So–just to get this straight because, as I said, I don’t know much about the Anglican Church–the authority is limited to saying someone is wrong? There’s no authority regarding enforcement? If there is no enforcement, what does that leave the people with? A church split? Not criticizing, just trying to understand.

A bishop can fire a parish preist and that’s about all.

does that leave the people with? A church split?

In this case, yes.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Signs and wonders were no longer normative. Sure, now and then someone will be bitten by a poisonous snake and not die, and now and then people talk in “tongues,” but for almost all Protestants that stopped being normative when the last Apostle died. That stuff about “having the keys of heaven” is included here, for a Protestant.

Maybe if they studied history more, they see would God still performs signs and wonders. Fatima looks pretty spectacular to me.

Yes, that is the conclusion, and it does lead to division, and division is bad. This is bad.

I agree.

There is no real Protestant answer to the question, because there is no standard that Protestants can point to. And yes, this is a problem. We know that it is a problem. The way we get around it (avoid it?) is by saying that Christianity is defined by a certain set of “essentials” that all Christians believe. I’ve never sat down to count it all up, but probably 90% of theology is common to all Christian groups. That’s “enough” for us. As long as you’re in that common core set, you’re okay. The differences don’t matter, we say.

But then, of course, we run into the question of what’s essential and what’s not. And we also run into disagreements about how one is saved (what could be more essential than that?). Is it sola fide or not? Is it OSAS or not? Is justification a one-time event, or is it a process? If one can lose his justification, how does that happen and what is necessary to get it back? Christianity is divided on the answers to these questions.

I’ll be the first in line to say that there is a logical flaw in this line of thinking, but, it’s the best that we Protestants can do.

That said, some Protestants insist that they alone have all the truth. To pick one example, this is the belief of the Wisconcin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and no, that group is not a cult. You’ll ask me now how the WELS determines that it alone is correct. I have no answer. I’ve tried to understand their explanation, but I still do not understand it. But in their eyes they are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong.

My heart just aches over the divisions in Christianity.

Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I don’t think we came up with much in the way of answers, but I’ve learned a lot.

I’m not the OP, but I’d like to thank all who have responded thus far.

I’m going to have to drop out of the discussion for a while, since I’m going on a short vacation tomorrow, and I don’t know if I’ll have a chance to get back on the computer again later today. I’ll be back, at the earliest, Thursday evening or perhaps Friday morning.

 

[Kay_Cee]

In this case, yes.

I am so sorry. That’s just awful.

 

[East_Anglican]

Maybe if they studied history more, they see would God still performs signs and wonders. Fatima looks pretty spectacular to me.

Some protestants would say otherwise. But if it was a miricle God was behind it not a particular denomination.

But then, of course, we run into the question of what’s essential and what’s not. And we also run into disagreements about how one is saved (what could be more essential than that?). Is it sola fide or not? Is it OSAS or not? Is justification a one-time event, or is it a process? If one can lose his justification, how does that happen and what is necessary to get it back? Christianity is divided on the answers to these questions.

How are we saved? I think we all know that without Jesus we are lost.

My heart just aches over the divisions in Christianity.

It’s that ‘Fullness of Christ’ Paul talks about us having. I long for it. I want to see Jesus’ name lifted high. WHen people put their doctrines and individual oppinions before Christ, it’s another nail in his wrist. Thank God that our God is slow to anger.

Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I don’t think we came up with much in the way of answers, but I’ve learned a lot.

I’m not the OP, but I’d like to thank all who have responded thus far.

I’m going to have to drop out of the discussion for a while, since I’m going on a short vacation tomorrow, and I don’t know if I’ll have a chance to get back on the computer again later today. I’ll be back, at the earliest, Thursday evening or perhaps Friday morning.

See you soon.

I am so sorry. That’s just awful.

When some are putting their oppinions befroe Christ, this happens.

Let CHrist be exalted.

 

[scottm]

But then, of course, we run into the question of what’s essential and what’s not. And we also run into disagreements about how one is saved (what could be more essential than that?). Is it sola fide or not? Is it OSAS or not? Is justification a one-time event, or is it a process? If one can lose his justification, how does that happen and what is necessary to get it back? Christianity is divided on the answers to these questions.

True. But here’s another viewpoint: it ain’t gonna matter.
Pick an ordinary Joe Pewsitter in heaven. It makes no difference to him now whether Luther, Calvin, or Wesley was right. Pick an ordinary non-Christian in hell. It makes no difference to him now whether Luther, Calvin, or Wesley was right.

Baptism – when little infant Suzie is 25, it will not matter whether or not she was baptized as an infant. Either she’ll still be a Christian, or she won’t, and that baptism ain’t gonna make the difference. Whether her parents take her to church or not will make a difference, and 25 years from now it ain’t gonna matter whether they’re Baptist or Lutheran or whatever.

Lords Supper – same thing.
OSAS – same thing.
Pretrib vs prewrath? Not relevant.
Go right on down the line of differences. Later on we’re all going to end up at the same place regardless of what position we hold now.

That’s the Protestant point of view.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Some protestants would say otherwise. But if it was a miricle God was behind it not a particular denomination.

Oh, absolutely. I didn’t mean to imply it was Catholic. A lot of non-Catholics witnessed it, including many atheists.

How are we saved? I think we all know that without Jesus we are lost.

Correct. But certainly there’s more to it than that. Not everyone is saved. Being saved requires something on our part.

It’s that ‘Fullness of Christ’ Paul talks about us having. I long for it. I want to see Jesus’ name lifted high. WHen people put their doctrines and individual oppinions before Christ, it’s another nail in his wrist. Thank God that our God is slow to anger.

I long for the day when Christianity is reunited. May it come soon.

See you soon.

I think I’m more tired now than when we left!

When some are putting their oppinions befroe Christ, this happens.

Let CHrist be exalted.

I agree. Everything should be Christ-centered, not we-centered.

 

[Kay_Cee]

True. But here’s another viewpoint: it ain’t gonna matter.
Pick an ordinary Joe Pewsitter in heaven. It makes no difference to him now whether Luther, Calvin, or Wesley was right. Pick an ordinary non-Christian in hell. It makes no difference to him now whether Luther, Calvin, or Wesley was right.

Perhaps so. I’d like to think *truth *matters, and since these guys contradict each other (at least in my limited understanding), they can’t all be right.

Baptism – when little infant Suzie is 25, it will not matter whether or not she was baptized as an infant. Either she’ll still be a Christian, or she won’t, and that baptism ain’t gonna make the difference. Whether her parents take her to church or not will make a difference, and 25 years from now it ain’t gonna matter whether they’re Baptist or Lutheran or whatever.

Well, it might make a difference if little Suzie dies when she’s little, before she’s baptized. We could get into that, but it’s a subject for another thread.

Besides, isn’t this about more than making it to heaven? I agree that’s priority #1, but shouldn’t we also be concerned about making the world a better place? Shouldn’t we be showing, by our example, how good Christianity is (and that’s a little hard to show by example if you’re not Christian)?

Lords Supper – same thing.

Well, if Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist (and I believe he is), then that’s a far cry from having bread and wine that’s merely a symbol.

OSAS – same thing.

I worry about OSAS. I worry some might take it to extremes and believe it doesn’t matter if they sin.

Pretrib vs prewrath? Not relevant.

I admit to not knowing enough about that subject to comment.

Go right on down the line of differences. Later on we’re all going to end up at the same place regardless of what position we hold now.

That’s the Protestant point of view.

Am I reading you correctly? Are you saying the Protestant point of view, generally speaking, is that it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to? I don’t want to put words into your mouth.

 

[scottm]

Perhaps so. I’d like to think *truth *matters, and since these guys contradict each other (at least in my limited understanding), they can’t all be right.
…
Am I reading you correctly? Are you saying the Protestant point of view, generally speaking, is that it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to? I don’t want to put words into your mouth.

Ahh, but can you know, objectively, that you are right?

Here and there you’ll find a particular Protestant group that says, “Yes, and we are objectively right, and you had better stay away from everyone else,” but for the most part they’ll say, “No, you cannot know, and for that reason it doesn’t matter which church you pick, as long as you pick a Christian church.”

That’s not to say that they’ll all cooperate with each other. In a twist of logic that has baffled me my entire life from about age 16 and continuing still today, few churches will cooperate across denominational lines. They’ll happily agree that the other church over there is Christian and it’s members are doing God’s work and going to heaven, and they’ll even praise the pastor, but they won’t share pulpits or share in ministry work on account of “we have doctrinal differences.”
I have never understood how they can simultaneously accept that other groups are Christians, and refuse to work with them.

Besides, isn’t this about more than making it to heaven? I agree that’s priority #1, but shouldn’t we also be concerned about making the world a better place? Shouldn’t we be showing, by our example, how good Christianity is (and that’s a little hard to show by example if you’re not Christian)?

Of course. In the USA the top three charity organizations, in order, are (1) the Red Cross, (2) the Southern Baptist Convention, and (3) The Salvation Army. Yep, two out of three are non-Catholic Christian ministries. And the Southern Baptists arguably have the best missions/evangelism program on the planet.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Ahh, but can you know, objectively, that you are right?

Here and there you’ll find a particular Protestant group that says, “Yes, and we are objectively right, and you had better stay away from everyone else,” but for the most part they’ll say, “No, you cannot know, and for that reason it doesn’t matter which church you pick, as long as you pick a Christian church.”

I find it hard to believe Jesus intended to leave us in such a pickle. This goes again to the heart of the thread, which is authority. Without some kind of divine authority given to man, we do end up with a lot of bickering about what doctrinal truth is.

That’s not to say that they’ll all cooperate with each other. In a twist of logic that has baffled me my entire life from about age 16 and continuing still today, few churches will cooperate across denominational lines. They’ll happily agree that the other church over there is Christian and it’s members are doing God’s work and going to heaven, and they’ll even praise the pastor, but they won’t share pulpits or share in ministry work on account of “we have doctrinal differences.”
I have never understood how they can simultaneously accept that other groups are Christians, and refuse to work with them.

Yes, it’s a huge problem. If you’re interested, Peter Kreeft has a terrific talk called Ecumenism Without Compromise:

peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm

Of course. In the USA the top three charity organizations, in order, are (1) the Red Cross, (2) the Southern Baptist Convention, and (3) The Salvation Army. Yep, two out of three are non-Catholic Christian ministries. And the Southern Baptists arguably have the best missions/evangelism program on the planet.

Hmmm. By what criterea are these rated? Is it the amount of donations received, the amount given to causes, number of volunteer hours, or some mixture of all three?

 

[scottm]

I find it hard to believe Jesus intended to leave us in such a pickle.

Took me eleven years of struggle, but that was the issue for which I finally went looking at RC church. I’m so very, very tired of fighting with that Protestant problem. On Friday I signed up for RCIA.

By what criterea are these rated? Is it the amount of donations received, the amount given to causes, number of volunteer hours, or some mixture of all three?

The amount given to causes. But the head of the Red Cross gets a Wall Street CEO’s salary, whereas the heads of the church group get church salaries. I do not know the ranking for St Vincent de Paul.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Took me eleven years of struggle, but that was the issue for which I finally went looking at RC church. I’m so very, very tired of fighting with that Protestant problem. On Friday I signed up for RCIA.

Hooray! So nice to know–I was praying for that, BTW.

The amount given to causes. But the head of the Red Cross gets a Wall Street CEO’s salary,

That bothers me.

whereas the heads of the church group get church salaries. I do not know the ranking for St Vincent de Paul.

There are more Catholic charities than just St. Vincent de Paul, and they probably go unnoticed. For example, at our parish the past two weeks, we’ve taken up collections for the earthquake victims. I’m sure other churches–both Catholic and Protestant–have done the same.

And then, of course, there’s the fact that Catholicism is international. A lot of donations to Catholic charities go to foreign countries, usually for food, medicine, and education. In addition, there’s the incredible donation of *time, *like all that volunteer work done by Mother Teresa’s Sisters. In your statistics, are donations to foreign causes counted or just those to American causes? (Not that this is a competition or anything–just curious.)

 

[scottm]

Hooray! So nice to know–I was praying for that, BTW.

Pray for wife to move toward the Catholic church. She has no interest whatsoever in converting from Baptist – or “reconciling,” as the proper term is.

In your statistics, are donations to foreign causes counted or just those to American causes?

I think it was just domestic. I heard it on the radio soon after the New Orleans hurricane damage a couple years ago. The salary part was in the newspaper.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Pray for wife to move toward the Catholic church. She has no interest whatsoever in converting from Baptist – or “reconciling,” as the proper term is.

It’s the Holy Spirit that moves hearts. You might want to pray to Him about this.

You also might want to read *Rome Sweet Home *by Scott and Kimberly Hahn, if you haven’t already. Scott had been an anti-Catholic, and his wife had said she wouldn’t have even dated a Catholic, much less married one. He converted, then they lived with a mixed marriage for a while, but eventually his wife converted too.

I would like to add a little caution about RCIA. Most programs are wonderful, but every once in a while you might encounter one that’s run by a so-called “Cafeteria Catholic” who might not give you the right scoop about Catholicism. If something sounds a bit “off” to you, check your catechism for the official teaching, or come here to CA. We’re rooting for you!

I think it was just domestic. I heard it on the radio soon after the New Orleans hurricane damage a couple years ago. The salary part was in the newspaper.

Thank you!

 

[brosam]

I’d love to hear how various protestant denominations deal with the issue of authority. Here are just a few NT passages that deal with authority (Emphasis added).

Can you identify such a structure of hierarchical authority within your own Church? Do members of your Christian community take seriously the authority of their ministers; or is the individual still the primary source of authority?

We believe that we’re accountable to one another.

Christians have never believed that the individual is the “primary source of authority”.

In my church, accountability is something that we take very seriously. We have an open door policy that says that any member can come to us with any concern that they have with our word that it will be taken seriously and dealt with.

They know that if they don’t feel comfortable coming to Pastor Jim, they can come to me and vice versa.

Likewise, about every five to six weeks, Jim and I have to go and sit before a panel (individually, not together) that goes over everything we’ve taught or preached during that time with a fine toothed comb. If we’ve taught something that is wrong, then we’re given an opportunity to repent and correct it before the church.

I’m happy to say that in all of the years that I’ve been doing this, only one thing has been brought up and that was only because I phrased something in an ambiguous way, not because it was Unbiblical.

If a member of our church is found to be in sin, then we follow the plan that Jesus laid out for us (one person, two people, elders, church body). If, after given an opportunity to repent, they won’t repent, then they’re removed from the church. We had to remove someone last winter because he left his wife for Unbiblical reasons.