Protestant Canon

[betsybug354]

ALL Protestant churches of 100 years ago taught that artificial birth control was a sin, and now NONE of them do. There are many people who actually care whether their churches are teaching the truth. How can they not wonder which of the ‘versions’ of what their church taught is the truth and which is not? Was the church of 100 years ago wrong and now they are right? Or are they right now and wrong then? Either way, their switching of positions does NOT inspire confidence that they are actually teaching God’s Word.

It is exactly this type of shifting sand which, along with some powerful nudging of the Holy Spirit, is bringing me to the Catholic church today. I left a Methodist church in 2005 (I was a lifelong Methodist up until that point) due to the influx of Rick Warren’s purpose-driven teachings, only to find the same thing had arrived in my Lutheran church (LCMS, no less) by 2013. It seems the lines are starting to be significantly blurred between the old mainline Protestant denominations due to the seeker-friendly, evangelical movement that has penetrated so many Protestant churches. The liturgy, creeds, and old order of worship are quickly being abandoned in favor of the desire for cultural relevance - in the LCMS church where I am currently a member but no longer attend, it is pretty much Willow Creek Megachurch wannabe nowadays, with a bit of Luther thrown in just to keep it officially Lutheran. To quote the associate pastor, “If we don’t do things this way, we’ll end up losing the children!” Bosh. As I see it, this type of thing is yet another unfortunate result of the rejection of the Catholic Church’s authority.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It is exactly this type of shifting sand which, along with some powerful nudging of the Holy Spirit, is bringing me to the Catholic church today. I left a Methodist church in 2005 (I was a lifelong Methodist up until that point) due to the influx of Rick Warren’s purpose-driven teachings, only to find the same thing had arrived in my Lutheran church (LCMS, no less) by 2013. It seems the lines are starting to be significantly blurred between the old mainline Protestant denominations due to the seeker-friendly, evangelical movement that has penetrated so many Protestant churches. The liturgy, creeds, and old order of worship are quickly being abandoned in favor of the desire for cultural relevance - in the LCMS church where I am currently a member but no longer attend, it is pretty much Willow Creek Megachurch wannabe nowadays, with a bit of Luther thrown in just to keep it officially Lutheran. To quote the associate pastor, “If we don’t do things this way, we’ll end up losing the children!” Bosh. As I see it, this type of thing is yet another unfortunate result of the rejection of the Catholic Church’s authority.

That’s a sobering assessment of church growth. Can you receive the sacrament weekly?

 

[betsybug354]

That’s a sobering assessment of church growth. Can you receive the sacrament weekly?

They do continue to offer communion every other week, at least. But for the past year I have been attending worship a little farther away from home at one of the oldest and most traditional LCMS churches in the area, built in 1867 (its school dates from 1856), that is unbending when it comes to maintaining the traditional Lutheran order of worship. However, I will say that it was partly my return to liturgical worship that got me interested in the Catholic church when I came to see how similar the two actually were (in terms of church calendar, lectionary, etc.).

 

[pablope]

It is exactly this type of shifting sand which, along with some powerful nudging of the Holy Spirit, is bringing me to the Catholic church today. I left a Methodist church in 2005 (I was a lifelong Methodist up until that point) due to the influx of Rick Warren’s purpose-driven teachings, only to find the same thing had arrived in my Lutheran church (LCMS, no less) by 2013. It seems the lines are starting to be significantly blurred between the old mainline Protestant denominations due to the seeker-friendly, evangelical movement that has penetrated so many Protestant churches. The liturgy, creeds, and old order of worship are quickly being abandoned in favor of the desire for cultural relevance - in the LCMS church where I am currently a member but no longer attend, it is pretty much Willow Creek Megachurch wannabe nowadays, with a bit of Luther thrown in just to keep it officially Lutheran. To quote the associate pastor, “If we don’t do things this way, we’ll end up losing the children!” Bosh. As I see it, this type of thing is yet another unfortunate result of the rejection of the Catholic Church’s authority.

I went to a LCMS church about a month ago…it is quite mega church like…no kneelers, no crucifix…and I saw this sort of motto on one of their publications or newsletter…conservative on doctrine, progressive in practice.

I started a thread on this too…if it interests you…forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=843650

 

[spina1953]

Hi Topper: One of the things I have noticed about many of my Protestant friends is that when they do not like what their pastor says or the people in their church they go find another church that suits whatever their thinking is. In any discussions with them I find that they like to search the Scripture for all of their answers, yet, the answers they give is always based on a private interpretation. Moreover, it seems to me from the asking od questions and the answers given that they have or had not really thought it out but in a sense rely on stock answers they have been taught.

                      Often they don't know the history behind it or what history is vague or scant.  I also have noticed that it appears that somehow the Bible came complete from heaven. I remember once one fellow said to me that if the KJV was good enough for Jesus then its good enough for me. Guess he did not realize that the KJV was written some 1500 yrs. before Christ. This is not to say that all Protestants are somehow ignorant as they are plenty of them who are highly educated and also sincere in what they believe.


                     One problem that I see is that our society and culture there is too much in the way of tolerance of things that were once taboo and now accepted. We tend to view material things far to much and we are being blasted with commercials telling us we must buy, but, buy,  to die for , must have, all 24/7. In view of this, it seems that some go that way while others look to what they have been taught in the past and now that what they had been taught is not being taught they look to some other church where they can hang onto what they believe. Still others start looking at the Catholic Church because it has not changed what they have been teaching for nearly 2000 yrs.

                   On the other hand, many just do not or have not learned what the Catholic Church really is being taught all sorts of things that are not true by those who for whatever reason are against the Catholic Church.  Sad to say, but, it seems to me that we are living in a moral and ethical decadent society. So I have to agree with you. You seem to show this in your many posts.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

According to Michael Coren in his book titled “Why Catholics are Right”, a very generalized theme that I feel perfectly describes Catholicism and protestantism is this: Catholicism, like God, is order from chaos. Protestantism is chaos from order. The Catholic Church was created by God who brought order from chaos. When protestants revolted and turned their backs on the true Church, they instantly descended into chaos. Without God guiding them, how can they not be mired in chaos? Tens of thousands of protestant religions all disagreeing with each other, all using the same “sacred scriptures” yet interpreting things individually. That does not sound like God. God does not divide His faithful. He only scatters those who oppose Him. The Catholic Church has remained united since it’s inception at Pentecost in 33AD. Protestantism, like every other heretical religion, broke away from the Catholic Church and became chaotic and without the fullness of Truth. Protestantism is heresy and is dying. It will not last in this world because it is opposed to God’s revealed Truth. This is wonderful news for our separated brethren As their man made religions begin to collapse and fall in on their own fonundational beliefs, they will drive honest Christ seeking protestants out from their snares. As these men and women open their hearts to Truth, they will start coming home to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in droves. Praise God for it

 

[spina1953]

According to Michael Coren in his book titled “Why Catholics are Right”, a very generalized theme that I feel perfectly describes Catholicism and protestantism is this: Catholicism, like God, is order from chaos. Protestantism is chaos from order. The Catholic Church was created by God who brought order from chaos. When protestants revolted and turned their backs on the true Church, they instantly descended into chaos. Without God guiding them, how can they not be mired in chaos? Tens of thousands of protestant religions all disagreeing with each other, all using the same “sacred scriptures” yet interpreting things individually. That does not sound like God. God does not divide His faithful. He only scatters those who oppose Him. The Catholic Church has remained united since it’s inception at Pentecost in 33AD. Protestantism, like every other heretical religion, broke away from the Catholic Church and became chaotic and without the fullness of Truth. Protestantism is heresy and is dying. It will not last in this world because it is opposed to God’s revealed Truth. This is wonderful news for our separated brethren As their man made religions begin to collapse and fall in on their own fonundational beliefs, they will drive honest Christ seeking protestants out from their snares. As these men and women open their hearts to Truth, they will start coming home to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in droves. Praise God for it

St Francis 333: I have tried to say the same thing you just posted. I agree with you on that score as I have said before what the Bible says and what the Bible means are two different things and so it is not always that easy to understand what we are reading. This is seen by how Protestants try to interpret Scripture based on sola scriptura or by private interpretations which do not conform to what the sacred author (God) is conveying using mans word are to be understood. It is by the Holy Spirit who leads in His most mysterious ways we can not understand those who honestly seek God that they end up coming home so to speak to the Catholic Church.

 

[steido01]

According to Michael Coren in his book titled “Why Catholics are Right”, a very generalized theme that I feel perfectly describes Catholicism and protestantism is this: Catholicism, like God, is order from chaos. Protestantism is chaos from order. The Catholic Church was created by God who brought order from chaos. When protestants revolted and turned their backs on the true Church, they instantly descended into chaos. Without God guiding them, how can they not be mired in chaos? Tens of thousands of protestant religions all disagreeing with each other, all using the same “sacred scriptures” yet interpreting things individually. That does not sound like God. God does not divide His faithful. He only scatters those who oppose Him. The Catholic Church has remained united since it’s inception at Pentecost in 33AD. Protestantism, like every other heretical religion, broke away from the Catholic Church and became chaotic and without the fullness of Truth. Protestantism is heresy and is dying. It will not last in this world because it is opposed to God’s revealed Truth. This is wonderful news for our separated brethren As their man made religions begin to collapse and fall in on their own fonundational beliefs, they will drive honest Christ seeking protestants out from their snares. As these men and women open their hearts to Truth, they will start coming home to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in droves. Praise God for it

Protestantism did not come from some great, monolithic “Protestant Church” that fractured; separate fractures occurred for separate reasons, at separate times, in separate places. The truth is that protestantism is a problem of the entire Western Church, stemming from Rome; the East is not the source of protestantism, after all. But for the sake of argument, let’s pretend all protestants originally agreed - then perhaps I can steer you toward the forum guidelines, which state; “Expecting members of any Church to defend or answer for the excesses or extremism of bodies that have broken with it is a technique that has no merit and can’t be defended.”

Perhaps we’d all be better served with some self-reflection here? Maybe thinking less about “Tens of thousands of protestant religions,” and more about “Tens of thousands of Christian religions,” would be more reflective of the sad situation that exists. The sobering truth is that His people are fractured - and even one fracture is too many.

 

[betsybug354]

Protestantism, like every other heretical religion, broke away from the Catholic Church and became chaotic and without the fullness of Truth. Protestantism is heresy and is dying. It will not last in this world because it is opposed to God’s revealed Truth. This is wonderful news for our separated brethren As their man made religions begin to collapse and fall in on their own fonundational beliefs, they will drive honest Christ seeking protestants out from their snares. As these men and women open their hearts to Truth, they will start coming home to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in droves. Praise God for it

It is exactly that thirsting I have for the “fullness of Truth,” as you so aptly put it, that has brought me to the place I am today, which is essentially dipping my toe in the Tiber and mustering up my courage to dive in and begin swimming. Last Sunday I was reading back over the bulletin following worship at my current LCMS church. At the same time I was listening to a Catholic mass on the radio, and I quickly noticed that the scripture readings were identical. The liturgy was very similar. Such realizations, along with many other experiences throughout the decades of my life where I had the opportunity to get to know Catholics and/or Church teachings, have led me to the point that whatever differences there now exist between the LCMS and the CC just aren’t enough for me to “keep protesting,” as it were. But more than that, I want more than anything in the world to experience all the Catholic Church has to offer, most of all the Real Presence of our Lord. It warms my heart that so many Catholics long for their separated brethren (such as myself) to come home. Thank you!

 

[spina1953]

It is exactly that thirsting I have for the “fullness of Truth,” as you so aptly put it, that has brought me to the place I am today, which is essentially dipping my toe in the Tiber and mustering up my courage to dive in and begin swimming. Last Sunday I was reading back over the bulletin following worship at my current LCMS church. At the same time I was listening to a Catholic mass on the radio, and I quickly noticed that the scripture readings were identical. The liturgy was very similar. Such realizations, along with many other experiences throughout the decades of my life where I had the opportunity to get to know Catholics and/or Church teachings, have led me to the point that whatever differences there now exist between the LCMS and the CC just aren’t enough for me to “keep protesting,” as it were. But more than that, I want more than anything in the world to experience all the Catholic Church has to offer, most of all the Real Presence of our Lord. It warms my heart that so many Catholics long for their separated brethren (such as myself) to come home. Thank you!

I just want to thank you for your sharing. Welcome home!

 

[spina1953]

While the cause of Protestantism is many, the Reformers, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli among others thought that by breaking from the Catholic faith, they could offer a different understanding regarding what Christians should believe. Neither Luther, Calvin or Zwingli could agree as to what doctrines to hold. They, it seems, from history, that they disagreed with each other as to what the Church should or needs to be. Each had their own ideas and understandings of how one is to believe. What this did was to open the door to those who for whatever reason under the sun to go their own way in how they wanted to believe. This also cause in time for those who thought that the Church they were in did not either go far enough in making the church into what they thought it should be to break away from them., or went to far.This is true today as those who did not like their church or the people in them either stop going to church or decide to find another church to go to that in is more in line with their thinking or beliefs. Many become what might be called fringe groups as what they preach is far from what was being taught in main line Protestant churches.

 

[steido01]

While the cause of Protestantism is many, the Reformers, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli among others thought that by breaking from the Catholic faith, they could offer a different understanding regarding what Christians should believe. Neither Luther, Calvin or Zwingli could agree as to what doctrines to hold. They, it seems, from history, that they disagreed with each other as to what the Church should or needs to be. Each had their own ideas and understandings of how one is to believe. What this did was to open the door to those who for whatever reason under the sun to go their own way in how they wanted to believe. This also cause in time for those who thought that the Church they were in did not either go far enough in making the church into what they thought it should be to break away from them., or went to far.This is true today as those who did not like their church or the people in them either stop going to church or decide to find another church to go to that in is more in line with their thinking or beliefs. Many become what might be called fringe groups as what they preach is far from what was being taught in main line Protestant churches.

Again, sounds like an issue for the entire Western Church.

We are off topic; if you want to keep discussing, start a new thread and I may follow you there.

 

[spina1953]

Again, sounds like an issue for the entire Western Church.

We are off topic; if you want to keep discussing, start a new thread and I may follow you there.

This goes with the notion that Protestants use a shorter Hebrew canon than the Catholic Church does since Protestant in forming their own churches they decided that the Catholic version of the OT did not meet their theology.

 

[RC_David333]

**the Catholic monk, brother Dimond, totally destroys the heretical arguments of the calvinist in this debate. Here is the link to that debate…

youtube.com/watch?v=Qn1vC1Ez-OI

To learn more about brother Dimond, his Monastery and the true teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ, then please visit VaticanCatholic.com or MostHolyFamilyMonastery.com **

 

[JonNC]

=spina1953;11631884]While the cause of Protestantism is many, the Reformers, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli among others thought that by breaking from the Catholic faith, they could offer a different understanding regarding what Christians should believe. Neither Luther, Calvin or Zwingli could agree as to what doctrines to hold. They, it seems, from history, that they disagreed with each other as to what the Church should or needs to be. Each had their own ideas and understandings of how one is to believe.

Why is that surprising? Zwingli’s movement was separate from that of the Lutheran reformers, for different reasons. Calvin, 25 years younger than Luther, borrowed from both, but was never aligned with Luther. The thing these three all have in common is not each other necessarily, but the Catholic Church.

What this did was to open the door to those who for whatever reason under the sun to go their own way in how they wanted to believe. This also cause in time for those who thought that the Church they were in did not either go far enough in making the church into what they thought it should be to break away from them., or went to far.This is true today as those who did not like their church or the people in them either stop going to church or decide to find another church to go to that in is more in line with their thinking or beliefs. Many become what might be called fringe groups as what they preach is far from what was being taught in main line Protestant churches.

The bolded is the Lemming Doctrine. Since Luther did it, Zwingli and Calvin followed him (though didn’t really follow him), and others followed them ( though not really ). Each of these has their own will. Certainly, there were issues in the European Church at the time, else why would various independent reformation movements - Lutheran, Zwinglian, Anabaptist - crop up.

Jon

 

[Topper17]

Hi Steido,

I wish I could see IP addresses. The cynic in me smells sock puppetry.
Forgive me if I am mistaken.

This amuses me.

Since you linked your comment to my last post on this thread, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that this comment was either directed at me or to me.

I think you think you are on to something, at least that is what I think you think. By your reference to IP addresses, it seems that you think that if you could see mine, it would confirm some suspicion you have about me. Apparently you are questioning my identity (or something).

So Steido – if you have an accusation to make or a question to ask, just march right up there and say it. Your reference to ‘sock puppetry’ in reference to my post is also curious. Just who do you think is the puppeteer and who is the puppet? If you would care to hazard a guess about who I am, and name the person you believe me to be, I will answer you directly.

I will tell you this though Steido, I think your comment about ‘smells like sock puppetry’ in reference to my post is a pretty transparent attempt to poison the well.

I will also tell you this:

It was so much easier to comment on smelling sock puppetry that it was to actually deal with the points I made. I would also suggest that if you had a response to what I wrote, you would be more than happy to provide it for all to see. Now - maybe I have this all wrong and should not have taken offense, but then if that is the case, I have to ask you:

What in the world could you possibly have been talking about?

 

[Topper17]

It is exactly this type of shifting sand which, along with some powerful nudging of the Holy Spirit, is bringing me to the Catholic church today. I left a Methodist church in 2005 (I was a lifelong Methodist up until that point) due to the influx of Rick Warren’s purpose-driven teachings, only to find the same thing had arrived in my Lutheran church (LCMS, no less) by 2013. It seems the lines are starting to be significantly blurred between the old mainline Protestant denominations due to the seeker-friendly, evangelical movement that has penetrated so many Protestant churches. The liturgy, creeds, and old order of worship are quickly being abandoned in favor of the desire for cultural relevance - in the LCMS church where I am currently a member but no longer attend, it is pretty much Willow Creek Megachurch wannabe nowadays, with a bit of Luther thrown in just to keep it officially Lutheran. To quote the associate pastor, “If we don’t do things this way, we’ll end up losing the children!” Bosh. As I see it, this type of thing is yet another unfortunate result of the rejection of the Catholic Church’s authority.

Hi Betsy,

I cannot tell you how much I identify with your comments. I happen to be someone who has now pretty much dried off from my ‘swim’, but I cannot begin to tell you how HUGE that swim was for me in my life. You speak of wanting to know the fullness of the Truth and (I gather) that you not only know that you don’t get it (where you are) but that you are not going to get it there.

For me, what it came down to is the importance of the Truth, the massive importance of God’s Absolute Truth, the Truth that God wishes for us to know, the Doctrines of Christ. So many people have succumbed to one of the almost uncountable number of the dumbed down version of the Gospel that make almost everything doctrinally ‘acceptable’. Christ didn’t believe that the doctrines he taught were unimportant. Neither did the Apostles, and for that matter, neither did the Reformers. BUT, what Luther taught (especially Sola Scriptura and the “Right” of the Individual to Interpret) virtually guaranteed that doctrine would become FAR less important to us in our times than it was during the Reformation. How could it NOT have turned out this way? When Luther ‘gave’ the individual the right to correctly interpret the Scriptures, the only possible result was a massive diversity of doctrinal belief, and with that, a reduction in the importance of both Doctrine and Truth.

To tell the truth Betsy, the reason that I do what I do here, is because I want people to experience the absolute joy that I have experienced from joining the Church that Christ intended for us to all belong to and count on to teach His Absolute Truth.

God Bless You Betsy, Topper

 

[betsybug354]

Hi Betsy,

I cannot tell you how much I identify with your comments. I happen to be someone who has now pretty much dried off from my ‘swim’, but I cannot begin to tell you how HUGE that swim was for me in my life. You speak of wanting to know the fullness of the Truth and (I gather) that you not only know that you don’t get it (where you are) but that you are not going to get it there.

And I also have a very strong feeling that I know where I am going to find it. Everything just makes so much more sense to me now that I am getting to know Catholicism better. That fullness of truth is also starting to take shape as I am now reading the deuterocanonical books for the first time in my life. (Well, I had digressed so far off topic I figured I had better say something relevant!)

Thanks, Topper. God’s blessings to you also.

 

[drblank1]

This goes with the notion that Protestants use a shorter Hebrew canon than the Catholic Church does since Protestant in forming their own churches they decided that the Catholic version of the OT did not meet their theology.

I find it interesting that you use the phrase “shorter Hebrew canon”. Hebrew canon is actual made up of 22 books that exactly corresponds to the 39 books of the Protestant Old Testament.

 

[PRmerger]

I find it interesting that you use the phrase “shorter Hebrew canon”. Hebrew canon is actual made up of 22 books that exactly corresponds to the 39 books of the Protestant Old Testament.

Today? Or during the time of Jesus?