Protestant Canon

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Today? Or during the time of Jesus?
Today and during the time of Jesus.

“From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets. … We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine …” [Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, I.8]

The Manual of Discipline in the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating two hundred years before Christ, also rejected the apocrypha as inspired [Dennis McCallum, The Canonicity Question].
 
“From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets. … We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine …” [Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, I.8]
That is no more proof of Jewish unity on the canon than this is proof of unity among Protestantism that all of you believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael:

“In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude” bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg11-12/r1207a-Michael.htm
 
You have been misinformed.

There was no Jewish magisterium during Jesus’ time. As such, there was no consensus as to what was the Jewish canon.

There were multiple canons.

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon
Um, what I said was what was Jewish canon had already been set during Jesus’ time. Canon was decide prior to Jesus’ arrival. How about more historical proof from Josephus:

What we know about the Septuagint is mostly from The Letter of Aristeus. Six elders from each of the twelve tribes were commissioned by Ptolemy Soter (285-246 BC) to translated the Jewish law into Greek. [Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII.II.4-7]. The translation was completed in 72 days and then read to the Jews who approved of the translation [Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII.II.13].

Also, regarding the link you provided, did you read this? This article even cites the Apocrypha “non-Jewish, extra-canonical writings.”
 
That is no more proof of Jewish unity on the canon than this is proof of unity among Protestantism that all of you believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael:

“In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude” bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg11-12/r1207a-Michael.htm
You deny historical fact. What can I say to that?

God bless you my friend.
 
You deny historical fact. What can I say to that?

God bless you my friend.
So you are saying that centuries from now a historian would correctly conclude, “It was a unified teaching among all of Christendom that Jesus was the Archangel Michael reincarnated.”

He would then cite the quote I offered from a SDA as “historical fact” affirming his erroneous conclusion.

:eek:
 
So you are saying that centuries from now a historian would correctly conclude, “It was a unified teaching among all of Christendom that Jesus was the Archangel Michael reincarnated.”

He would then cite the quote I offered from a SDA as “historical fact” affirming his erroneous conclusion.

:eek:
🤷 No, I am saying you are denying historical fact about what Josephus wrote. It is universally accepted by the Jewish people what is Hebrew canon. And God DOES declare the Jews the oracles of the OT.
 
I find it interesting that you use the phrase “shorter Hebrew canon”. Hebrew canon is actual made up of 22 books that exactly corresponds to the 39 books of the Protestant Old Testament.
I used this phrase because during the time of Jesus, there was no official canon of Scripture. The Palestinian version had anywhere between 22 to 24 books; which BTW were actually scrolls, the Alexandrian version which is called the Septuagint was the larger version which it seems that Jesus and the Apostles and early Church Fathers used.
 
It has been a while since I logged in to CAF, and I asked this question a while back, but never quite received a satisfactory response. This question re-surfaced in my mind when the History channel recently broadcast a documentary about Martin Luther and the Reformation.

The question is this: How is it that the “apocrypha” were declared un-inspired? Put another way, how can something declared Holy and the Word of God in the 4th century – and accepted as such by Christians for many centuries – be declared un-Holy in the 16th century? I realize that some doctrines develop over time, such as the Bible’s table of contents – but has there ever been something declared Holy in one era, subsequently declared un-Holy in another era?
Back with helping Sextus, do Protestant think the apocrypha is:
  1. Holy - no.
  2. inspired - no.
  3. useful - yes.
You must remember that the apocrypha was not affirmed as canon for the Catholic church until Trent as a response to the Reformation. There was much debat in the church about the apocrypha. Even today, I know of some Catholics (my wife being one of them) that disagree with the Church’s stance on the apocrypha.
 
Back with helping Sextus, do Protestant think the apocrypha is…
  1. Holy - yes.
  2. inspired - uncertain.
  3. useful - depends what you’re doing. For confirming doctrine, not really, because they’re disputed. For edification, the study of history, prayer, etc., most definitely!
 
Apocrypha is from the Geek word apokryphos meaning hidden. Protestants use the word for the DC Books. The reformers, influenced by Jewish Scriptures of the Palestinian version, decided that the DC Books would either be put into separate section or just omitted them altogether. The Catholic Church uses the term pseudepigrapha for books either Jewish or Christian that have not been accepted as genuine Scripture by the Church.
 
What do I need to respond? I don’t think that anything you posted is deeply suspect. I just think it’s wrong to suggest that McGrath’s words posted thus far imply some kind of dissatisfaction with evangelical Protestantism.
That’s a good point. I’m not aware of McGrath converting to a non-Protestant faith, nor do I think his book presents non-Protestant faiths as superior.

I have this book. McGrath mentions early on that his book is an interpretation of history. He says his conclusions are “fallible and provisional.” McGrath is not arguing for the truth of the Catholic church by describing the history of Protestantism. That is, the purpose of his book is not an apologetic treatise meant to provoke conversion away from Protestantism towards Catholicism. To use his interpretation of history as a polemic to prove one faith position (Catholicism) as superior to another (Protestantism) is a misuse of this source.

It’s like this:say I was a rock musician and trained as a historian in the development of rock music. Then I write a book describing the history of rock music, and I include all sorts comments on the particulars of the impact of rock music on Western Society. I include the societal negatives: the way rock music contributes to antinomianism, societal unrest, anarchistic thought, or whatever. This does not mean I’m making an argument for the superiority of Classical music. Nor does it mean I’ve ceased being a rock musician.
 
I think that maybe we need to return to the focus on the Protestant canon, or accurately, the Protestant canons, meaning plural. After all, some of the denominations have seen fit to set the canon and some have not. We see this same lack of agreement within Protestantism on literally every issue, budget this one really is telling. All of these Sola Scriptura denominations cannot even agree on whether they should or should not close the canon. It’s no wonder that they can’t agree about anything else (except of course their opposition to the Church).

“It was particularly within the canon that Luther practiced theological criticism of its individual parts. The standard of this criticism is the same as his principal of interpretation, that is, Christ: the gospel of free grace and justification through faith alone. (WA 12, 260)”, Paul Althaus, “The Theology of Martin Luther”, pg. 82

Here the celebrated Lutheran Theologian Paul Althaus makes the exact same point that I have been making. In one sentence Althaus mentions Luther’s ‘criticism’ of the canon, ties it to his ‘principal of interpretation’, and for the trifecta, throws in that Luther’s concept of: “Christ: the gospel of free grace and justification through faith alone”. Bada Bing – Bada Boom, a Lutheran Theologian and I agree on something!

Now, if anyone wants to provide an ‘alternative understanding’ of this quote, it will require an actual dealing with the actual words of Althaus, and must include (in order to be either credible or compelling), the specifics in regards to what Althaus maybe meant to say, but like James according to Luther, was “unequal to the task”.

Most Christians would think of the idea of “theological criticism of its individual parts” (of the canon) as being some kind of ultra-liberal blasphemous practice whereby the individual places themselves or their own personal judgment above that of Holy Scripture. And yet, this is exactly what the Lutheran church has done, of course following Luther who did the exact same thing.

Althaus continues. “This is what Luther means when he says that the standard is ‘that which is apostolic.’……An apostle shows that he is an apostle by clearly and purely preaching Christ as Savior.” Althaus, pg/ 82. In other words, an Apostle is an Apostle if they teach Luther’s Salvation by Faith Alone. James did not and so he was deemed by Luther to NOT be an Apostle. Of course we know now that James WAS written by the Apostle James, so at the very least, this fact makes Luther look like a very poor judge of Scripture. Althaus continues:

“Since apostolic authority manifests itself in the gospel of the apostles, the church recognizes the authority of Scripture as being based not on the person of the apostles but on the word of God or the gospel which bears witness to itself. The apostolic character of a New Testament author manifests itself in the content of his writing and in the clarity of his witness to Christ. Luther now applies this standard or criterion to the canonical books. ‘All genuine books agree in preaching Christ. He allows the canon to stand as it was established by the ancient church. But he makes distinctions within the canon. He evaluates the books according to the norm of their apostolic content. ‘This is the true test of all books, when we see whether or not they preach Christ. For all Scriptures show us Christ (Rom 3:21) and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ (I Cor. 2:2)/ Whatever does not teach Christ is certainly not apostolic even though St. Peter or St. Paul teaches it. Again whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic even though Judas, Ananias, Pilate, or Herod were doing it.’ If this characteristic is missing or inadequate in any of the canonical writings, as it is, for example in James, then the author cannot be an apostle. For Luther, ‘preaching’ Christ means proclaiming that the crucified and risen Christ is the Savior and that the salvation he brings is received through faith alone. Luther is so certain of this, as well as of the interpretation of Scripture, that he did not think of himself as approaching the canon with an arbitrary and autonomously chosen criteria but with the standard which Scripture itself offers in it on-going central proclamation (‘St. Paul and all the evangelists’). Luther obtained this standard from nowhere else than Scripture. To that extent it is the Scripture itself that criticizes the canon.” Althaus, pg. 82-3

This is a classic case of circular thinking. How can Scripture criticize the canon when Scripture is not closed because the canon is not closed. It’s no wonder that Protestantism has such complete lack of doctrinal certainty. What a mess!

This is of course not to mention something that Lutherans (not even Althaus) don’t make a big deal out of (or even a miniscule deal), - that Luther was DEAD WRONG about James not being an Apostle. Luther was extremely aware that James spoke directly against Salvation By Faith Alone, but he also believed that “apostolic authority manifests itself in the gospel of the apostles”. This means that if an Apostle taught against something (say Salvation by Faith Alone as an example), then that was the end of it. An Apostle had spoken. However, Luther’s terrors over his everlasting salvation demanded that he ‘find’ SBFA in Scripture. Luther’s ‘answer’ – James had to be downgraded to a non-Apostolic writing:

“Therefore I do not want to have him in my Bible.”

Luther had no choice but to defend Salvation by Faith Alone, which was a radical version of Salvation, and had NEVER been taught as such in the then 1500 year history of Christendom.

It’s no wonder that so many Lutheran Theologians are converting to Catholicism.
 
I think that maybe we need to return to the focus on the Protestant canon, or accurately, the Protestant canons, meaning plural. After all, some of the denominations have seen fit to set the canon and some have not. We see this same lack of agreement within Protestantism on literally every issue, budget this one really is telling.
:rolleyes: I recommend post 387. If that doesn’t interest you, then by all means, keep hammering away. These monologues are certain to convert us heretics.
 
:rolleyes: I recommend post 387. If that doesn’t interest you, then by all means, keep hammering away. These monologues are certain to convert us heretics.
Why are you seeking to provoke with a post such as this?

Of course you know that you can not be a heretic, since you were never a Catholic.
 
:rolleyes: I recommend post 387. If that doesn’t interest you, then by all means, keep hammering away. These monologues are certain to convert us heretics.
We can’t even pretend that there was agreement from the beginning… Don’t know if you read on Buce - but he should shed some light on how fractured things were from the get go.
 
Why are you seeking to provoke with a post such as this?
Not at all intending to provoke - quite the opposite, actually, as should be apparent if you read post 387. The poster has simply derailed the thread in his continued attempts at evangelism.
Of course you know that you can not be a heretic, since you were never a Catholic.
Which makes me, by definition, a material heretic - does it not? I’m happy to accept correction.
 
Which makes me, by definition, a material heretic - does it not? I’m happy to accept correction.
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community [that resulted from such separation’ and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason **are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” --C.C.C. # 818

So, no, you’re not even a material heretic.

First, you have to be Catholic, then you have to espouse heresy, then you are a heretic.
 
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