Protestant Canon

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PR - I can do demonstrate same with the Catholic church evolving doctrine as well. But that is off topic. 🙂
Evolving doctrine is different from not knowing whether baptism is an ordinance or a sacrament, to be done by immersion or by intinction, in Jesus’ name only or using the Trinitarian formula, in infancy or adult, in a river of baptismal font, whether it saves or is merely an outward sign…

And that’s just all the chaos that comes from differing interpretations of 1 Peter 3:21.

Let’s take all the other verses of the Bible that have dozens of contrary doctrines borne from fallible, personal interpretations! :eek:
 
Bayou Catholic - I was interested in your response.
Sorry for my delayed response, I too have been busy & haven’t the time to participate as much as I’d like.

I’ve studied the text 2 Mac 2:24-32 & 15:39. However, I still do not see the author or the text calling itself uninspired. I do see that he considers the undertaking difficult, but for a good. To use the author’s comparison, it was like preparing a banquet for others enjoyment, but that itself was worth it to him. When examining the writing in 2 Mac 15: 37-39, I again do not see the author indicating this work to be uninspired or inspired. The author basically says in verse 38, “if it turned out well done or poorly done, it’s the best I could do”. I do not see this as clearly equaling uninspired. As far as it being an abbreviation of another man’s works, this does not clearly equal uninspired either. There are books to who we can assume we know the author, but cannot know with 100% certainty. Some books are compiled by multiple authors, such as Isaiah. Is the Gospel of Mark clearly St. Mark’s writing or was it written by another man as St. Mark’s (an abridgment of St. Mark’s work, but as inspired by God) or is it anonymous? None of these points tell me that these other books are uninspired or inspired. I know that they are inspired, because Christ’s church tells me so, and did so a few centuries after Christ. As far as the Jews being the oracles of the OT, I believe this. But which group of Jews? Those who accepted the Septuagint (Same as Catholic’s OT), the Pentateuch, or the Pharisees with the canon that Protestants have today? Knowing that the earliest Christians (many of which were Jews) used the Septuagint is good evidence that it is what is inspired.

Nowhere in any of the 73 books of the Bible do I see a particular book calling itself inspired or uninspired. Nowhere do I see an exhaustive list of which book belongs and which do not belong. I think Luke 24:44 has been responded to fairly thoroughly in this thread thus far; and I do not see how I could add to the responses anything new.
 
A question I have, related to the topic of this thread, is why did the early Church wait until the late 4th century to determine what was canon? Why did they not just decide this right off the back? Wouldn’t this have prevented future disputes over canon, like we have now?

My thoughts are that the early church waited until there was a challenged to what was inspired to make a declaration of canon. Just like in the case of baptism v/s circumcision. The Council of Jerusalem was called in response to a challenge and it responded by affirming that baptism now replaced circumcision. It seems the Councils concerning the canon were done for the same reason, as a response to challenges against the canon (for example the Council of Trent).

I hope someone can shine some light on this for me. Thanks!! 🙂
 
Steido # 506 Prot Canon

First of all steido, I am still waiting for an explanation about that insulting comment that you made about me. You remember - the comment that you made about how I am a ‘sock puppet’. Like I said, I am AGAIN respectfully asking for you to explain yourself. If you can’t ‘find the time’ then I will officially be offended. Was that your intention?

Now you have a comment to make to me about “you in your wisdom” and that I am ‘able to divine’? If you read the Althaus quote the first time around, you apparently didn’t understand it. I don’t mind though because it allows me to make my point again. The quote in question is as follows:

“Luther also knows that only men who are moved by the Spirit of God can interpret the Scripture. But the spirit which enables them to interpret Scripture comes to them through the Scripture itself. If one expects it to come from outside Scripture and takes credit for such a spirit, the inevitable result will be that one ‘sets oneself above Scripture’ and interprets it according to his own whims and subjects it to his own spirit. Luther clearly recognized that Rome and the enthusiasts were in this respect both ‘enthusiasts’. They both subordinate Scripture to an alien law. Althaus, “Theology”, pg. 77

My comment about this, to which you apparently took HUGE offense was:

“Although Althaus doesn’t say it or even infer it (remember, he is a good Lutheran), his comments do suggest that Luther was led by the Holy Spirit in a way, in a superior way, to that of the Catholics and the ‘enthusiasts’. If a person believes that they have the Spirit (like the enthusiasts according to Luther), but they actually don’t (also according to Luther), then they are setting themselves above Scripture and interpret it according to their ‘own whims’. How can Luther (and Althaus for that matter) not see the (more than) possibility that this was exactly what Luther himself was doing?” Topper

First of all stiedo, I don’t think that you are in a position to take about ‘contradictions’. In addition, I have YET to meet a Lutheran who does NOT believe that Luther was ‘better led’ by the Holy Spirit than Catholics, the enthusists, Calvinists, and virtually everybody else in Christian history. Both Luther and Althaus seem to be in agreement on this matter and also seem to be in agreement with every Lutheran I have ever met. Althaus comments that Luther believed that “only men who are moved by the Spirit of God can interpret Scripture” AND of course we know that Catholics and the ‘enthusiasts’ CANNOT correctly interpret Scripture (according to Dr. Martin Luther of course). The only conclusion that can be drawn, is that, according to Martin Luther, the Catholics and ‘enthusiasts’ were NOT ‘men who are moved by the Spirit of God’.

Now – as we have been reading, from a number of different sources, it is VERY clear that Luther interpreted Scripture according to his own personal psychological needs (the extreme need to ‘find’ Salvation by Faith Alone in Scripture). Althaus’s term for this is when one ‘sets oneself above Scripture’ and interprets it according to his own whims and subjects it to his own spirit.’ My point which I am more than happy to make again, is that it appears while Luther and Althaus clearly understood the concept of man putting himself above Scripture and interpreting it according to their ‘own whims’, neither one of them seems to have been (psychologically?) ABLE to consider the obvious possibility – that ‘possibility’ being that it might actually be Luther who was setting himself above Scripture and interpreting it according to his own whims.’

After all, Luther had to have had SOME justification for deciding, all on his own, which books he was going to ‘demote’ to a secondary class of the NT. What could that have been? Althaus makes it very clear that Luther didn’t believe that Catholics and ‘enthusiasts’ were ‘moved by the Spirit of God’ to the point where they could not interpret. Of course, if you can’t interpret, and there is a ‘question’ about the NT canon, which there really wasn’t, then clearly, someone who IS actually moved by the Spirit of God should be the one to lead all of Christianity which books of the NT are worthy of using for setting doctrine. In Luther’s mind, he was “That Guy”.

If Luther really was ‘that guy’, then we should see clear evidence of how ‘well led’ he was by the Holy Spirit. In fact, what we have in many of his actions and writings, is evidence that Luther was not ‘that guy’ who was ‘better led’ than his opponents. What it really comes down to is the huge authority that Luther claimed (for himself) and the specific reasons for those claims, as opposed to the actions and writings of the man which indicate that he was not what he claimed himself to be.

So, that is “in my wisdom – what I am able to divine’ (using your terms). Hopefully you now understand the context. All that being said, I have to tell you that I am still very much looking for an explanation about your offensive comment and I will proceed (or not) based on your answer.

BTW, I recognize that many people find it necessary to view Luther’s views on Salvation as being something other than ‘radical’, but as we have read (and there is much more) Luther’s Salvational opinions were something that had never been taught previously in the history of Christendom. That is the textbook definition of ‘radical’.

God Bless You Stiedo, Topper
Hi Topper: Makes sense.
 
A question I have, related to the topic of this thread, is why did the early Church wait until the late 4th century to determine what was canon? Why did they not just decide this right off the back? Wouldn’t this have prevented future disputes over canon, like we have now?

My thoughts are that the early church waited until there was a challenged to what was inspired to make a declaration of canon. Just like in the case of baptism v/s circumcision. The Council of Jerusalem was called in response to a challenge and it responded by affirming that baptism now replaced circumcision. It seems the Councils concerning the canon were done for the same reason, as a response to challenges against the canon (for example the Council of Trent).

I hope someone can shine some light on this for me. Thanks!! 🙂
The Catholic Church just surfaced from being underground for 400 years under Pagan Rome persecutions. Under the Emperor Constantine, who supported the whole Catholic bishops to surface in peace, who found it necessary to council when disputes over which books are to be used in the Mass. The council found many of the bishops were using heretical and false writings posing as an apostolic Letter in their Mass liturgies.

Thus the council created a measuring rule or cannon to absolutely confirm which apostolic letter met the canon and which ones proved false, heretical, and never apostolic, although many books met the cannon of the Church without question, because all the bishops had one and proved from their predecessors who received them from the original apostles directly, and were already used by the apostles from Sacred Tradition which met one of the standards in order to make the cannon of the Church.

The cannon removed all false books from ever entering the bible canon of books inspired of God.

In short, the Catholic church canonized the bible books we have today for Her Mass Liturgy, for all bishops around the world were placed on the same page metaphorically speaking to teach, preach the Gospel of Jesus and celebrate the Eucharist united as one body in Christ.

Hope that sheds a little light.
 
Hi Topper" It seems to e that because Luther was in fear of losing his soul and that nothing he could do would save him from hell, that when he interpreted Roman’s he could be saved by faith alone, he just went to the extreme in his thing ad interpretation of Scripture and decided that he could decide for himself what was inspired and what was not. He I think thought that the Church was not interpreting Scripture in the way it should be according to his understanding. I wonder if he were alive today if he would agree to all the different doctrines and interpretations there are in vogue now in so many of the different Protestant denominations.
 
EXACTLY!!! For anyone to declare that the Holy Spirit gave them exclusive authority in all matter of faith is unbiblical. Even the apostles corrected each other at times. My church does not declare that and I am suspect of any church that does.

I am constantly told that I have been lied to and the I need to unlearn those lies. Yet, in my church, we are taught to test what our teachers preach using scripture as we all are instructed by the apostles. Don’t blindly accept those teachings. Pray and read the scriptures!!! In your church, you are commanded to believe whatever is declared as the Truth, or be accursed. Hmmmmmmmm…

And it has no affect on my faith that the Catholic church holds those writings as the Holy Word of God. Will I ever accept any Christian doctrine/dogma that comes from writings that promote ideas such as suicide is acceptable at times, prayers to spirits, expiatory sacrifice, worship of angels, redeeming souls after death, the use of magic, or purgatory (I personally feel bad that Catholics have to go to purgatory before Heaven - tounge in cheek)? No, because these ideas are contradictions to the harmony of the Word of God.

The evidence that those writings are not God’s Holy word is overwhelming. And any evidence that these writings should be considered the written Word of God is just about nonexistant.

The original idea of this thread is why the Protestant Bible doesn’t include the apocrypha. Not, why the Catholic Bible should not include them. So please don’t get defensive. 😉
I don’t mean to quote myself but I wanted to clarify that I am not implying the RCC ascribes to all of the above listed questionable practices. My intention was to convey that such text could not come from the mouth of God and we should not gleen doctine from such writings.
 
Sorry for my delayed response, I too have been busy & haven’t the time to participate as much as I’d like.

I’ve studied the text 2 Mac 2:24-32 & 15:39. However, I still do not see the author or the text calling itself uninspired. I do see that he considers the undertaking difficult, but for a good. To use the author’s comparison, it was like preparing a banquet for others enjoyment, but that itself was worth it to him. When examining the writing in 2 Mac 15: 37-39, I again do not see the author indicating this work to be uninspired or inspired. The author basically says in verse 38, “if it turned out well done or poorly done, it’s the best I could do”. I do not see this as clearly equaling uninspired. As far as it being an abbreviation of another man’s works, this does not clearly equal uninspired either. There are books to who we can assume we know the author, but cannot know with 100% certainty. Some books are compiled by multiple authors, such as Isaiah. Is the Gospel of Mark clearly St. Mark’s writing or was it written by another man as St. Mark’s (an abridgment of St. Mark’s work, but as inspired by God) or is it anonymous? None of these points tell me that these other books are uninspired or inspired. I know that they are inspired, because Christ’s church tells me so, and did so a few centuries after Christ. As far as the Jews being the oracles of the OT, I believe this. But which group of Jews? Those who accepted the Septuagint (Same as Catholic’s OT), the Pentateuch, or the Pharisees with the canon that Protestants have today? Knowing that the earliest Christians (many of which were Jews) used the Septuagint is good evidence that it is what is inspired.
I have provided historical evidence of what the mainstream Jews considered canon in their day. Jews did use the Septuagint but still rejects those works as insprired and thus catolouged them as apocrypha.
 
I don’t mean to quote myself but I wanted to clarify that I am not implying the RCC ascribes to all of the above listed questionable practices. My intention was to convey that such text could not come from the mouth of God and we should not gleen doctine from such writings.
How would you feel about starting a thread to address some of your notions of Catholicism? Maybe some of us would like hear what you think of our Church; and give us a chance to debate openly and fairly? The “Protestant Canon” topic is far too narow…
 
Jon,
Your understanding of sola fide doesn’t seem to match what Lutherans, or even Luther believed, so I can understand why you’ve come to this misconception about James.

If your understanding of sola fide had been Luther’s, then he would have had to dismiss Galatians, as well.
It is not my responsibility to explain (or explain away) the numerous contradictions in Luther’s theology. If anything, my ‘job’ is to point out those contradictions, but I appreciate the ‘assist’ in your pointing out that SBFA does not agree with Galatians any more than it does with James. As we have seen, (former Lutheran) Minister Bouyer (there’s another one!) pointed this out very succinctly.

The fact of the matter is that Luther understood full well that James refuted his version of Christian Salvation:

“In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works (2:24)……. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.” Martin Luther, From his preface to the Book of James.

So really Jon, you have two options here, neither of which is good for your position. You seem to be admitting that Luther’s beliefs on Salvation are different than those of the Lutheran church. If that is so, then you are admitting that Luther (according to you) was wrong on Salvation. Conversely, you could claim that Luther didn’t understand how James and Paul (so the explanation normally goes) could be ‘reconciled’ (but you can). Either way, you are claiming that Luther didn’t understand Salvation. And since Salvation by Faith Alone was the Basis for Luther’s whole theology, that would mean that his theology was built on a foundation of false understanding, an errant understanding of arguably the most important teaching of Christianity.
This understanding by Luther is reflected in Pope Benedict’s words, when he said that Luther’s faith alone is correct if it does not exclude love. This thinking by Luther provides at least one possible bridge between Catholic and Lutheran thought on justification, as is offered in James Akin’s article about Faith Alone.
It is surprising that you would point this out given the kinds of quotes we have seen here, including from a Lutheran Theologian (Tillich), who states that: “It is a shortcoming of Protestantism that it never has sufficiently described the place of love in the whole of Christianity.” I would suggest to you that that lack of emphasis on love is an (unfortunate) inheritance from Luther. His de-emphasisasion of love in favor of faith has had a very profound impact and not only in his own time. The fact is that Luther’s version of Salvation did NOT include love as referenced. That is why he termed it ‘Faith Alone’ which is exactly Akin’s point.
I do not believe it is prudent for either side to bring up the Fathers on this issue, since they would have had no knowledge of the 1500’s dispute, but the modern day Catholic Church sees Luther’s sola fide in a new light, not complete agreement, not even in the JDDJ, but certainly not as some radical departure, as was once the case.
I hear you loud and clear, and if I was in your shoes I wouldn’t want to bring up the beliefs of the Fathers either. Apparently you have come into contact with these quotes from the Fathers and recognize that Luther’s views were very different from theirs. Claim if you want that his version of Salvation was not a radical departure, but do so knowing that actual scholars (many tons of them), people who do this stuff for a living, have refuted your position. As am sure you have guessed, all of those quotes from the Fathers refuting Luthers SBFA are all tuned up and ready to post. Please let me know how many of them it would take to cause you to doubt your statement about Luther’s ‘salvation’ not being ‘radical’. Luther’s radical beliefs about Salvation are the BASIS of his criticism of the book of James.

As for the Scripture on the matter, how many passages from Scripture would it take to cause you to doubt that SBFA is in Scripture? In this case, you can provide an answer in dozens, as in 1 =12, 2 = 24, 3 = 36. They too are all ready to quote, although in my experience when Catholics quote Scripture Lutherans turn a deaf ear and start making unsupportable claims.
Luther presents his reasons for his view of the canonicity of James, his initial views in that first preface that appeared in only the 1522 NT publication, and in his later usage of James in his ministry. If you choose to believe other motives on his part, you are welcome to your opinion.
You know that I do believe that Luther’s motive for his degrading of James had a great deal to do with his understanding of James’s teaching on Salvation. Furthermore, I have to tell you that I am not at all convinced by personal opinions which are backed up by nothing more than other personal opinions. In fact, I have posted several dozen quotes from almost exclusively respected Protestant Scholars who have studied the subject. There are two aspects of their quotes which are important. They reveal actual historical facts and actual text from Luther’s Works which substantiate my position. Secondly, many of these Protestant writers are very much interested in correctly depicting events accurately and as a result, their opinions must be taken seriously. The case for Luther’s ‘motivations’ about downgrading James has been built. Stating that I am free to have my opinions seems to infer that our opinions should be viewed as equally compelling. In fact, I doubt that anyone here is unclear as to why I believe what I do and so I am perfectly happy for people to read our defenses of our positions and make up their own minds.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
=Topper17;11681644]Jon,
It is not my responsibility to explain (or explain away) the numerous contradictions in Luther’s theology. If anything, my ‘job’ is to point out those contradictions, but I appreciate the ‘assist’ in your pointing out that SBFA does not agree with Galatians any more than it does with James. As we have seen, (former Lutheran) Minister Bouyer (there’s another one!) pointed this out very succinctly.
Actually, it points out your false view of sola fide.
The fact of the matter is that Luther understood full well that James refuted his version of Christian Salvation:
“In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works (2:24)……. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.” Martin Luther, From his preface to the Book of James.
All it points out is that Luther had a very Gospel oriented view, a theology of the cross.
But James in no way contradicts justification by grace alone through faith alone.
So really Jon, you have two options here, neither of which is good for your position. You seem to be admitting that Luther’s beliefs on Salvation are different than those of the Lutheran church. If that is so, then you are admitting that Luther (according to you) was wrong on Salvation. Conversely, you could claim that Luther didn’t understand how James and Paul (so the explanation normally goes) could be ‘reconciled’ (but you can). Either way, you are claiming that Luther didn’t understand Salvation. And since Salvation by Faith Alone was the Basis for Luther’s whole theology, that would mean that his theology was built on a foundation of false understanding, an errant understanding of arguably the most important teaching of Christianity.
The number of options I have are not set by you. There are lots of things Luther believed that are not the teachings of Lutheranism. The fact that he was a man, living in a time where even the Catholic Church in that time in that place was not portraying justification as the Catholic Church does today. Whether or not Luther was able to reconcile James and Paul in his early preface is irrelevant. They certainly do reconcile, and clearly do so under justification by grace alone through faith alone.
It is surprising that you would point this out given the kinds of quotes we have seen here, including from a Lutheran Theologian (Tillich), who states that: “It is a shortcoming of Protestantism that it never has sufficiently described the place of love in the whole of Christianity.” I would suggest to you that that lack of emphasis on love is an (unfortunate) inheritance from Luther. His de-emphasisasion of love in favor of faith has had a very profound impact and not only in his own time. The fact is that Luther’s version of Salvation did NOT include love as referenced. That is why he termed it ‘Faith Alone’ which is exactly Akin’s point.
Luther’s own words, which I quoted earlier, proves his understanding of the role of love.

I hear you loud and clear, and if I was in your shoes I wouldn’t want to bring up the beliefs of the Fathers either. Apparently you have come into contact with these quotes from the Fathers and recognize that Luther’s views were very different from theirs. Claim if you want that his version of Salvation was not a radical departure, but do so knowing that actual scholars (many tons of them), people who do this stuff for a living, have refuted your position. As am sure you have guessed, all of those quotes from the Fathers refuting Luthers SBFA are all tuned up and ready to post. Please let me know how many of them it would take to cause you to doubt your statement about Luther’s ‘salvation’ not being ‘radical’. Luther’s radical beliefs about Salvation are the BASIS of his criticism of the book of James.
As for the Scripture on the matter, how many passages from Scripture would it take to cause you to doubt that SBFA is in Scripture? In this case, you can provide an answer in dozens, as in 1 =12, 2 = 24, 3 = 36. They too are all ready to quote, although in my experience when Catholics quote Scripture Lutherans turn a deaf ear and start making unsupportable claims.
Ok, I’ll get some quotes together. In the meantime, go ahead and provide those quotes I asked for earlier, where Luther says in his prefaces to the DC’s that he wants to disregard them because they don’t agree with his theology.

Jon
 
I have provided historical evidence of what the mainstream Jews considered canon in their day. Jews did use the Septuagint but still rejects those works as insprired and thus catolouged them as apocrypha.
I agree that you have provided historical evidence of what “mainstream” Jews s/p Christ considered canon, such as the quote from Flavius Josephus. If I have over looked something, I apologize as there is much to digest in this thread. However, I have not seen conclusive evidence to suggest those books were considered uninspired prior to Christ. Rather, I’ve seen evidence from both sides this discussion to be confident that the varying groups of Jews did not agree on a single canon prior or during the time of Christ. I am interested in your statement that those Jews who did use the Septuagint, catalogued the deutoroconicals as apcrypha. Do you have evidence from prior to Christ that supports this? Note, I cannot concede that the text of 2 Mac clearly describes itself as uninspired. I would be interested in any outside sources, such as what you’ve provided from Flavius Josephus.

I hope to address the other points you’ve made asap. Thank you in advance for your patience.
 
Steido # 506 Prot Canon
First of all steido, I am still waiting for an explanation about that insulting comment that you made about me. You remember - the comment that you made about how I am a ‘sock puppet’. Like I said, I am AGAIN respectfully asking for you to explain yourself. If you can’t ‘find the time’ then I will officially be offended. Was that your intention?
I owe an apology to both you and spina1953. After several posts of the “Yes, I agree.” and “Yes, I’m glad you agree.” variety, I suspected sock puppetry might be at play. I flippantly questioned the source of the posts, and I was wrong for doing so. I should have notified Eric instead of posting my skepticism publicly. Please forgive me for jumping to conclusions. I hope this public confession atones, at least in part, for wrongly having accused you.

I have also been offended. Your style of posting appears to be more focused on winning some perceived debate than on learning what others believe (It’s worth mentioning that such behavior would not be tolerated in these forums if you were Protestant). We can have civil discourse about beliefs without relying so heavily on polemics and speculative ad hominem attacks on men long dead. Perhaps you can follow the legendary example of Emperor Karl at Luther’s Grave.

As for me, I have nothing left to contribute here. This discussion has become nothing but an excuse to exhume long-expired polemics. Perhaps you can learn something from the more patient Lutherans and understanding Roman Catholics.
 
About the Book of Judith, Luther writes, in part:
**If one could prove from established and reliable histories that the events in Judith really happened, it would be a noble and fine book, and should properly be in the Bible. **
The question regarding Judith is not theology, but historical facts.

**Therefore this is a fine, good, holy, useful book, well worth reading by us Christians. For the words spoken by the persons in it should be understood as though they were uttered in the Holy Spirit by a spiritual, holy poet or prophet who, in presenting such persons in his play, preaches to us through them. **
And he strongly recommends its reading by Christians. He would not do so if it didn’t “match his theology” as is the charge made in this thread.

The Wisdom of Solomon
**For a long time this book has stood in the cross fire of controversy as to whether or not it should be included among the sacred scriptures of the Old Testament, especially in view of the fact that the author suggests in chapter 9 that throughout the book it is King Solomon speaking…
**
He says that the ancient fathers excluded it from sacred scripture,
They contend, however, that Philo is the author of the book. Undoubtedly, he was one of the most learned and wisest men the Jewish people have had since the prophets…
Not theology, therefore, but authorship, and the fathers.
** It pleases me beyond measure that the author here extols the Word of God so highly, and ascribes to the Word all the wonders God has performed, both on enemies and in his saints. **
and
**To refer to this book as the Wisdom of Solomon is as much to call it: A Book of Solomon about the Word of God. So the spirit of wisdom is nothing other than faith, our understanding of that same Word; this, however, the Holy Spirit imparts. Such faith or spirit can do all things, and does do all things, as this book glories in chapter 7 **
and finally,
** This is the foremost reason why it is well to read this book: one may learn to fear and trust God. To that end may he graciously help us. Amen.” **
Again, no theological conflict here.

Tobit

"What was said about the book of Judith may also be said about this book of Tobit. If the events really happened, then it is fine and holy history. But if they are all made up, then it is indeed a truly beautiful, wholesome, and useful fiction or drama by a gifted poet…
and
**Tobit shows how things may go badly with a pious peasant or townsman, and there may be much suffering in married life, yet God always graciously helps and finally crowns the outcome with joy, in order that married folk should learn to have patience and, in genuine fear of God and firm faith, put up gladly with all sorts of hardships because they have hope… **
finally,
** Therefore this book is useful and good for us Christians to read. It is the work of a fine Hebrew author who deals not with trivial but important issues, and whose writing and concerns are extraordinarily Christian." **
Again, why encourage its reading if it is set against his own theology?

Ecclesiasticus
** Its real name is otherwise Jesus Sirach, after its author as its own prologue and the Greek [50:27] indicate. This is how the books of Moses, Joshua, Isaiah, and all the prophets are named, after their authors. Yet the ancient fathers did not include this one among the books of sacred Scripture, but simply regarded it as the fine work of a wise man. And we shall let it go at that.
**
and
** This is a useful book for the ordinary man. The author concentrates all his effort on helping a citizen or housefather to be Godfearing, devout, and wise; and on showing what the relationship of such a man should be to God, the Word of God, priests, parents, wife, children, his own body, his servants, possessions, neighbors, friends, enemies, government, and anyone else. So one might well call this a book on home discipline or on the virtues of a pious householder. This indeed is the proper “spiritual discipline,” and should be recognized as such.
**
Again, Luther points to the opinions of the Fathers as far as its canonicity goes, then remarks on its worthiness for Christains to read.

Baruch
** Whoever the good Baruch may be, this book is very skimpy. It is hardly credible that the servant of St. Jeremiah, whose name is also Baruch (and to whom this letter is attributed), should not be richer and loftier in spirit than this Baruch. Furthermore, the book’s chronology does not agree with the [accepted] histories. Thus I very nearly let it go with the third and fourth books of Esdras,
…Baruch, however, we shall let run with the pack because he writes so vigorously against idolatry and sets forth the law of Moses.**
Same issues, though he does yield to the historic inclusion. No theological issues here either.

continued
 
1 Maccabees
** This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel. For the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy in that chapter, about the abomination and misfortune which was going to befall the people of Israel, is here described—namely, Antiochus Epiphanes—and in much the same way that Daniel [11:29–35] speaks of it: a little help and great persecution by the Gentiles and by false Jews, which is what took place at the time of the Maccabees. This is why the book is good for us Christians to read and to know**

The highlighting is mine!! This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them (the books of the Hebrew Bible). And again, good for Christians to read and* know*.

2 Maccabees
**This book is called, and is supposed to be, the second book of Maccabees, as the title indicates. Yet this cannot be true, because it reports several incidents that happened before those reported in the first book, and it does not proceed any further than Judas Maccabaeus, that is, chapter 7 of the first book. It would be better to call this the first instead of the second book, unless one were to call it simply a second book and not the second book of Maccabees—another or different, certainly, but not second. But we include it anyway, for the sake of the good story of the seven Maccabean martyrs and their mother, and other things as well.

It appears, however, that the book has no single author, but was pieced together out of many books. It also presents a knotty problem in chapter 14:41–46] where Razis commits suicide, something which also troubles St. Augustine and the ancient fathers. Such an example is good for nothing and should not be praised, even though it may be tolerated and perhaps explained. So also in chapter 1 this book describes the death of Antiochus quite differently than does First Maccabees [6:1–16].

To sum up: just as it is proper for the first book to be included among the sacred Scriptures, so it is proper that this second book should be thrown out, even though it contains some good things. However the whole thing is left and referred to the pious reader to judge and to decide **

Of the DC books he seems to like 2 Macc the least, for the reasons he presents. And yet, he still defers and includes it. Additionally, he leaves it to the pious reader to judge and decide.

Jon
 
The Fathers:
Chrysostom

**They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed. **

**For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law. **

How then does [St. Paul] say boasting was excluded? “By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.

**“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.” **

Basil

“Therefore let no one boast of his works, because no one can be justified by his works; but he who is just receives it as a gift, because he is justified by the washing of regeneration. It is faith, therefore, which delivers us by the blood of Christ, because blessed is he whose sins are forgiven, and to whom pardon is granted.”

Augustine

** “We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith." **

Just a few, as there are plenty more. Do they prove *sola fide *? It sounds like it, but I don’t think so, because they Fathers had no knowledge of the Reformation era dispute. Neither do they disprove *sola fide *for the same reason.
They do, however, speak to the tension in the early Church regarding works.

Jon
 
I owe an apology to both you and spina1953. After several posts of the “Yes, I agree.” and “Yes, I’m glad you agree.” variety, I suspected sock puppetry might be at play. I flippantly questioned the source of the posts, and I was wrong for doing so. I should have notified Eric instead of posting my skepticism publicly. Please forgive me for jumping to conclusions. I hope this public confession atones, at least in part, for wrongly having accused you.

I have also been offended. Your style of posting appears to be more focused on winning some perceived debate than on learning what others believe (It’s worth mentioning that such behavior would not be tolerated in these forums if you were Protestant). We can have civil discourse about beliefs without relying so heavily on polemics and speculative ad hominem attacks on men long dead. Perhaps you can follow the legendary example of Emperor Karl at Luther’s Grave.

As for me, I have nothing left to contribute here. This discussion has become nothing but an excuse to exhume long-expired polemics. Perhaps you can learn something from the more patient Lutherans and understanding Roman Catholics.
steido: Speaking for myself you do not owe me any apology as I am not or was not offended by what you have posted. While I may not agree with any one poster on the debates we have I respect the right of the poster to opine on what they think and believe. I am not here to try and win anything but more to learn and give an opinion as I understand it. I do hope that you will continue to post here as I do like to know and understand your position in these debates. spina1953
 
1 Maccabees
** T

Of the DC books he seems to like 2 Macc the least, for the reasons he presents. And yet, he still defers and includes it. Additionally, he leaves it to the pious reader to judge and decide.**

Jon

Thanks Jon…for all the info you provided here.

Maybe this is where Luther’s fatal flaw is…he let each one decide for himself…instead of saying…defer to the Church, get guidance from the Church…in contrast to St. Jerome’s who submitted to the Church.
 
The Fathers:
Chrysostom

Basil

Augustine

{Trimmed for space sake}

Just a few, as there are plenty more. Do they prove *sola fide *? It sounds like it, but I don’t think so, because they Fathers had no knowledge of the Reformation era dispute. Neither do they disprove *sola fide *for the same reason.
They do, however, speak to the tension in the early Church regarding works.

Jon
Jon, you can also include one of our Popes - Clement of Rome in his 1st Epistle to the Corinthians:

CHAPTER 32 – WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.

CHAPTER 33 – BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.

CHAPTER 34 – GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.

{The caps are from the letter translation and not meant to shout :))

It depends on the type of lens you use to read them, but there is inevitably a word absent from all of them: alone.

Like St. Paul, none of them use the term Faith alone.
 
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