Protestant Canon

  • Thread starter Thread starter SextusEmpiricus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
They are not arbitrary.
To say that something has to be written in Hebrew in order to be considered canonical is, indeed, as arbitrary as my saying it must be written in Greek.
These are serious issues with the text. Protestants have a different standard.
And why are you blindly following what these Protestant men have decided?

They are fallible, are they not?
Only God decides the keepers of the OT and that is not Christians.
I can agree with you here.

And some of the keepers of the OT, the Greek Jews, discerned that the DeuteroCanon was indeed inspired.
And yes, I classify all the books of the Koran as not from God’s mouth. They deny Jesus as the son of God. John was very clear. Anyone who denies the Son, is antichrist. Or do you now reject St. John’s teaching in 1 John?
So we are agree that your criterion that something must claim inspiration is of no help whatsoever?
 
God is not invoked in the magic called out in Tobit. It is pure magic.
It is no more magical than Moses’ staff was magical.
And how does the miracle of God causing a donkey to speak constitute magic? Are you saying we should classify all of God’s miracles as magic? That’s a dangerous road you go down?
It is fanatical and sounds as ridiculous as your other examples.
PR, the bottom line is this. Considering all the issues with the apocryphal writings and how they do not compare with the rest of the Bible, do you consider these words from the mouth of God. Yes or No. What say you?
Yes! 100% yes!

Incidentally, I will say that what you are declaring above about certain things being not consistent with the message of God (“magic” in Tobit, for example) seems to me that you are really helping the Catholic position here.

What you are actually saying, drblank, is that the message came first. And then things that agreed with this message were put in the Bible, and things that disagreed with that message ought to be excluded.

And this is nothing but an argument for Sacred Tradition.

So what you are really saying, drblank, is that you defer to Sacred Tradition, and NOT the Bible, for knowing what the message is.

👍
 
And there is the difference. The Reformation recaptured the original faith of the apostles. The NT books were completed in the first century well before the establishment of the RCC church. The tradition of the apostles was the original faith that is now recorded in those 27 books, God’s Holy Word. Yes, I will take my faith from God’s mouth, not of men. The apostles were only the instruments of God to convey the faith of Jesus Christ. Yes, I go with God. 😃
DrBlank,

When do you believe the Roman Catholic Church was established?
 
#3 The Bible doesn’t just equip us for good works. 2 Timothy 16,17 says it equips of for EVERY good work.

It is not man I follow, but God-only!!!
St Paul is only speaking of the Old Testament … And not the bible. Have to read v15.

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesu
 
Just to throw in a shekel or two. When it comes to the Hebrew Canon. There is the misnomer among those who reject the Dueterocanonical books that all Jews agreed on the Mazhora Translation. Among various Sephardic Communities the Canon held by the Catholic Church has been seen as canonical since before the Hebrew Canon was determined in the 7th Century A.D. You are not going to convince me that my forefathers who were Sephardi and held to the older Canon should be ignored.

The decisions on what books to include in the Mazhora is another quite interesting historical study in itself, and seems to indicate more than just a linguistic criteria, but texts supporting Christian (no Protestants at the time so read that Catholic) doctrine and claims to Jesus’ Messiahship.
 
And since God tells us that the Jews determine OT canon
chapter and verse please where God says this. (The Pharisees couldn’t even agree with the Sadducees on what was OT Scripture)
and they universally reject the apocrypha,
. :eek: absolutely false. There were more Greek speaking Jews than those in Palestine speaking Aramaic. Those speaking greek, ask well as the apostles, held to the Septuagint which included the Deutercanonicals.

The Roman historian Mommsen wrote, “The inhabitants of Palestine were only a portion, and not the most important portion, of the Jews; the Jewish communities of Babylonia, Syria, Asia Minor and Egypt were far superior to those of Palestine.”

Read more: gotquestions.org/diaspora.html#ixzz2sns7W3XB
 
I agree with you 100%. Salvation is from God alone. And only will He give us that gift if we only believe in Jesus Christ his son. There is nothing for us to do. Nothing except believe in His son as our Savior. Just like the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He did nothing but believe in Jesus. And Jesus told him, He would see the thief in paradise. The thief had zero opportunity to perform any good work (baptism or any other sacrament), yet he was saved.
I’ve never heard about the thief on the cross :rolleyes:

Have you heard about the workers in the vineyard:

Matthew 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’* 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”***

He chooses, not you, me or anyone else.

The thief on the cross’ conditions were known by Christ alone. Not you, me, or anyone else.

Christ told the thief (not you, me or anyone else) that he would see him in paradise.

On that note - Can you find the list of books that should be in the Bible in Scriptures? Old and New Testament? And what are the specific books Paul is talking about in 2 Tim 3:16?
 
I agree with you 100%. Salvation is from God alone. And only will He give us that gift if we only believe in Jesus Christ his son. There is nothing for us to do. Nothing except believe in His son as our Savior. Just like the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He did nothing but believe in Jesus. And Jesus told him, He would see the thief in paradise. The thief had zero opportunity to perform any good work (baptism or any other sacrament), yet he was saved.
Well I for one believe in Jesus. I believe what He said. Which seems a bit different from what you are saying. Jesus said to the Apostles as he sent them out to go out and teach, preaching the Gospel, and to batpize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. He told the Apostles in the Upper Room to make anmensis of what he had just done with the Bread and Wine, he told them was His Body and Blood, He told us we must chew on His Body and Drink His Blood. The Apostles were told when H laid hands on them and breathed on them the those who’s sins they forgave were forgiven, and those who they did not forgive were not forgiven. He said He was building His Church, when He changed Simon’s name to Peter, He did not stop there but gave the newly appointed and renamed Peter the keys to His kingdom, and told Peter he would have the authority to bind and loose in heaven and earth.

But I guess we can either ignore all thoeusesless commands of Jesus, or just pretend Jesus only said, Believe in Me,and you don’t have to do anything else.

I’m sorry I was distracted from your posting by thinking about what Jesus commanded, and His Apstles and Disciples were (name removed by moderator)ired to write in the NT, which Jesus is it you said we have to believe in again?
 
Nope!!! I do read the early catholic writings on the subject. I also read Roman Catholic writing as well as Protestant. When you study the Word, look at criteria that determines God’s spoken Word, that is not blindly following anyone. I guess you could say and am blindly following the Holy Spirit on the subject.
👍
 
It has been a while since I logged in to CAF, and I asked this question a while back, but never quite received a satisfactory response. This question re-surfaced in my mind when the History channel recently broadcast a documentary about Martin Luther and the Reformation.

The question is this: How is it that the “apocrypha” were declared un-inspired? Put another way, how can something declared Holy and the Word of God in the 4th century – and accepted as such by Christians for many centuries – be declared un-Holy in the 16th century? I realize that some doctrines develop over time, such as the Bible’s table of contents – but has there ever been something declared Holy in one era, subsequently declared un-Holy in another era?
ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml

Different patristic theologians had their own views of the canon at that time. Books like Revelation were found highly suspicious for a while as well.
 
Nope!!! I do read the early catholic writings on the subject. I also read Roman Catholic writing as well as Protestant. When you study the Word, look at criteria that determines God’s spoken Word, that is not blindly following anyone. I guess you could say and am blindly following the Holy Spirit on the subject.
Can you both help me understand this?

Both of you claim to follow the Holy Spirit, as do every Christian in every different denomination.

When I look from the outside, all I see is a sea of confusion and contradictions among the people that claim to follow the Holy Spirit.

Can we be so naive and ignorant to truly believe we are all correct?

and if not…

How can we tell the difference?
 
Can you both help me understand this?

Both of you claim to follow the Holy Spirit, as do every Christian in every different denomination.

When I look from the outside, all I see is a sea of confusion and contradictions among the people that claim to follow the Holy Spirit.

Can we be so naive and ignorant to truly believe we are all correct?
Exactly.

Either baptism saves, or it is merely an outward sign of one’s belief.

Either we are once saved, always saved, or we can lose our salvation.

Either women can be ordained, or they cannot be pastors.

Either abortion is murder, or it is permissible.

All of the above both/and cannot be correct.
 
Can you both help me understand this?

Both of you claim to follow the Holy Spirit, as do every Christian in every different denomination.
And this would include Catholics as well, I would think? I have heard many talking of the Holy Spirit either leading them to the RCC (converts to the RCC), and many talking of the Holy Spirit leading them out of the RCC (“converts” from the RCC). Within the ranks of Catholics I’ve read differing takes on the leading of the Spirit, say in the charismatic movement, etc… So, the idea of the guidance of the Spirit is not just a Protestant invention, or phenomenon. We can see, for example, the Spirit leading Paul as to where to go preach in the NT. If someone traveling with Paul disagreed, Paul would be responsible for answering the call of the Spirit in spite of what anyone else said.
When I look from the outside, all I see is a sea of confusion and contradictions among the people that claim to follow the Holy Spirit.
Can we be so naive and ignorant to truly believe we are all correct?
and if not…
How can we tell the difference?
It is quite apparent that we are indeed NOT all correct; that is an impossibility. However, I have come to feel more and more, as I study the beliefs of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants that we are all closer than we imagine, because of the foundation and the head of all Churches; Jesus Christ. We all believe in faith we all believe in grace, we all declare Christ and Him Crucified and Raised.

How we are to tell who is right and who is wrong is a matter of debate as well, is it not? One of the biggies for all of us is scripture. If something does not contradict scripture then it at least has a chance of being true though that does not prove truth. If something does indeed contradict scripture then we can at least know it is wrong. My only answer is to affirm the fact that we are to study to show ourselves approved, and we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to pray, study, and humble ourselves to the Truth of the Spirit, for He is the one that leads and guides. Humanity will ALWAYS get in the way, for even amongst those that accept scripture, tradition, logic, etc… there are disagreements on what is right and what is wrong, how to interpret, how to apply.

In short, it is up to me to get out of the way enough, and to be humble enough to accept His teaching and His leading. I’ve had to do it in the past, and feel that I’m willing to do it in the future on whatever He is teaching me by His written word, and by His Spirit. Each of us, as individuals, will be held responsible for what we embrace. And each of us is responsible for what we believe. Obviously some of us are right and some are wrong… in fact allow me to quote Rocky for a second, “Only God ain’t wrong.” 😉 All of us Christians believe that, but we then believe that truth is supported in different ways; for the RCC for example, this is seen in following the magisterium, who are responsible to follow the Spirit, for me it is seen in my responsibility in following the Spirit directly.
 
Can you both help me understand this?

Both of you claim to follow the Holy Spirit, as do every Christian in every different denomination.

When I look from the outside, all I see is a sea of confusion and contradictions among the people that claim to follow the Holy Spirit.

Can we be so naive and ignorant to truly believe we are all correct?

and if not…

How can we tell the difference?
Of which the Catholic churches and Orthodox churches is simply another voice claiming to be right about any number of of subjects.
 
And this would include Catholics as well, I would think?
This Tu Quoque fallacy always gets brought up whenever Catholics present the obscenity of the chaos and confusion that is wrought by using the Bible alone as the pillar and foundatio of truth.

Jimmy Akin responds to this fallacy quite adeptly here:

Because of the difficulties with the “unity in essentials” argument, its advocates typically do not attempt to defend it on its merits. Instead, they commonly resort to a form of tu quoque (Latin, “You are also!”) argument in which they attempt to tar Catholics with similar disunity.

For example, they might say, “Look at the Dominicans and the Jesuits. They typically hold different views of predestination. This shows that Catholics as well as Protestants disagree on essentials, and thus are no more credible than Protestants.”

In response, a number of points may be made: First, Catholicism has a functioning magisterium that can decide that these matters are not essential differences. Second, the relevant schools adhere to the teachings of the magisterium and, if their views were reprobated, would accept the results (or cease to be faithful Catholics). Third, the differences between Catholic schools of thought have nowhere near the magnitude of the difference among Protestant schools. Compared to the differences among Protestant groups, differences among orthodox Catholic groups are trivial. Finally, the fact that the Catholic Church has a magisterium means that there can be—and on the most important theological matters there is—an official Catholic position. There is no parallel standard in Protestant circles that can speak for Protestantism.

Other times, advocates of the “unity in essentials” argument will attempt to construct a parallel argument against Catholics by pointing to the existence of ostensible Catholics who refuse to acknowledge the magisterium’s teachings.

In response, it should be pointed out that the difference among Catholic dissidents is frequently far less than among individuals in the sweep of Protestant belief. Furthermore, individuals’ refusal to accept the magisterium’s teachings does not challenge the Christ-given authority of the magisterium any more than the refusal to accept some of Paul’s teachings undermines Paul’s authority as an apostle. Moreover, Protestant churches also have individuals who refuse to honor the teachings of their denominations. The difference is that for Catholicism there is a body—the bishops teaching in union with the pope—who “speak for the Church” and who can articulate what “the Catholic position” is, while in Protestantism there is nothing comparable.

Take home message: when Catholics disagree there is an authority to decide what is indeed permissible, and where the Catholic has divorced herself from the truth given once for all to the saints.

When Protestants disagree, they simply move to another church or establish their own.

It presents this monstrous paradigm:

[SIGN1]When I submit only when I agree, the one to whom I submit is me,[/SIGN1]
 
Even though you say that you are not commanded what to believe, in truth, you are indeed given a certain paradigm of beliefs you MUST adhere to, or else you cannot be a member of your church.

To wit: if you declare that you have read the Scriptures, prayed about it, and will no longer “blindly accept” that Jesus rose from the dead, you will not be permitted to do so.

So it’s curious that what you object to in the CC, you submit to yourself in your own church.
Hi PR merger: I just wanted to add to what you were saying to drblank1 about his thinking. he said that “Yet in my church we are taught to test what our preachers preach using Scripture.” It just seems to me that if one has need to test what one’s preachers is preaching than it appears that maybe the preacher can not be trusted to preach since then it means that the one testing what the preacher says is more knowledgeable than the preacher doing the preaching. How does on know if the preacher is preaching something different? How can be sure that the tester understands what is being preached? Seems to me that if I have to test what the preacher is preaching there is something wrong because if I am testing I must know more than the preacher, at least that is what it seems to me. Maybe you can PR merger add anything to my comment?
 
Hi PR merger: I just wanted to add to what you were saying to drblank1 about his thinking. he said that “Yet in my church we are taught to test what our preachers preach using Scripture.” It just seems to me that if one has need to test what one’s preachers is preaching than it appears that maybe the preacher can not be trusted to preach since then it means that the one testing what the preacher says is more knowledgeable than the preacher doing the preaching. How does on know if the preacher is preaching something different? How can be sure that the tester understands what is being preached? Seems to me that if I have to test what the preacher is preaching there is something wrong because if I am testing I must know more than the preacher, at least that is what it seems to me. Maybe you can PR merger add anything to my comment?
Indeed. In the end, what the Protestant paradigm is espousing is a prideful “I will submit to doctrines which agree with my own person ideologies. When a pastor says something to which I disagree, in the end, I will decide whether I have to conform or not.”

Who becomes the final arbiter of truth in the Protestant paradigm? The Almighty Self.
 
Indeed. In the end, what the Protestant paradigm is espousing is a prideful “I will submit to doctrines which agree with my own person ideologies. When a pastor says something to which I disagree, in the end, I will decide whether I have to conform or not.”

Who becomes the final arbiter of truth in the Protestant paradigm? The Almighty Self.
Hi PR merger: Thanks for your comment! I agree that it seems prideful and self-centered way of thinking that one can test whatever the preacher is preaching. If I can not trust the preacher to preach then why am I in that church? maybe its time to go with a Church I can trust, which for me would be the Catholic Church which I have trusted all my life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top