Protestant Cantor?

[revert_jen]

In my parish, which is usually very correct in all liturgical matters, one of the cantors for the Easter vigil Mass (we had two, since we had all of the readings) was a Protestant. I believe she is a paid cantor, and is either Episcopalian or Lutheran (not that it matters, the point is that she’s not Catholic).

My question is, is it OK to have a Protestant cantor? It doesn’t feel right to me, but everything is usually so correct at my parish, that I find it hard to believe we would be breaking the rules in this matter. (Yes, I realize how lucky I am.)

If it’s OK, that’s great. Not being the Pope, I am not infallible. If it’s not, could you give me some official references?

Thanks!

–Jen

 

[laszlo]

When I was young, in the 1940’s the cantor in one neighboring church was Jewish. He introduced the Gregorian chant to hat church.

As long as he or she works under the supervision of the pastor, and according to the rubrics the religion is not impediment.

 

[Cat]

My daughter, who is not Catholic, often cantors at Catholic Mass.

Years ago, our parish music minister looked up the rubrics,and yes, it is acceptable to use a non-Catholic cantor.

 

[ProVobis]

Cantors, choir, and organists can all be non-Catholic. I’ve heard readers can be as well.

 

[hazcompat]

For more info you may want to try

co-workers.org/

peace

 

[TrueLight]

The responses are surprising to me.

In the evangelical churches I attended, you had to be at least nominally Protestant to sing or read or do anything that involved ministry in the church.

For a church who is strict about holiness, I don’t quite understand why Protestants, who are seen by some as being heretics, are allowed to read at all.

 

[TheMc]

I’m very surprised at all these responses.

I have to agree with TrueLight. It seems very odd to have a cantor that doesn’t believe in what they are singing.

I also know there is a document somewhere saying that musicians should be faithful to the church, or something like that. And protestants are certainly not faithful to the church, or else they wouldn’t be protestant.

Also, it seems that at best, it’s dishonest for the singer, if you have decent music that adequately shows and explains catholic theology. And if the music doesn’t, why are we singing it in the first place?

This really doesn’t seem like a good idea.

ProVobis,

Non Catholic readers?? Why would you even want that? That sounds like a very bad idea.

My daughter, who is not Catholic, often cantors at Catholic Mass.

Years ago, our parish music minister looked up the rubrics,and yes, it is acceptable to use a non-Catholic cantor.

I would be very interested to see these rubrics, and the context they are in.

 

[ProVobis]

I also know there is a document somewhere saying that musicians should be faithful to the church, or something like that. And protestants are certainly not faithful to the church, or else they wouldn’t be protestant.

Also, it seems that at best, it’s dishonest for the singer, if you have decent music that adequately shows and explains catholic theology. And if the music doesn’t, why are we singing it in the first place?

I agree but a lot of the music is Protestant-based as are the Scriptural readings, no? Has a lot to do with Vatican II ecumenism, I would think.

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m very surprised at all these responses.

I have to agree with TrueLight. It seems very odd to have a cantor that doesn’t believe in what they are singing.

. . .

I would be very interested to see these rubrics, and the context they are in.

The rule for readings is as follows:
133. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.
Bear in mind that the GIRM draws a distinction between the cantor and the psalmist at Mass:
102. The psalmist’s role is to sing the Psalm or other biblical canticle that comes between the readings.
104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to lead and sustain the people’s singing.
And in fact
99. The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, . . . and, in the absence of a psalmist, proclaim the Psalm between the readings.
You can see, then, that although they are usually done by the same person, proclaiming the Psalm and leading other singing are in fact separate roles in the Mass and the difference should be kept in mind. As I have remarked elsewhere and at another time, the psalmist fulfills a role more in common with one who reads Sacred Scripture, and that function is therefore reserved to a Catholic except by permission of the Ordinary.

 

[Cat]

I’m very surprised at all these responses.

I have to agree with TrueLight. It seems very odd to have a cantor that doesn’t believe in what they are singing.

I also know there is a document somewhere saying that musicians should be faithful to the church, or something like that. And protestants are certainly not faithful to the church, or else they wouldn’t be protestant.

Also, it seems that at best, it’s dishonest for the singer, if you have decent music that adequately shows and explains catholic theology. And if the music doesn’t, why are we singing it in the first place?

This really doesn’t seem like a good idea.

ProVobis,

Non Catholic readers?? Why would you even want that? That sounds like a very bad idea.

I would be very interested to see these rubrics, and the context they are in.

You can’t make the statement that “the cantor doesn’t believe what they are singing.” How could you possibly know that? Isn’t it also possible that the Catholic cantor doesn’t believe what they are singing? Why do you assume that the Protestant cantor doesn’t believe?

The answer to the OP’s query is: “The reason there are Protestant and non-Christian cantors is that they are available.”

If enough Catholics stepped up and agreed to learn to cantor at Mass, there would be no need for non-Catholic cantors.

Of if “someone” would learn and teach Gregorian chant and “someone” would learn Palestrina and other polyphonic ancient music, and “someone” would learn the Propers, and “someone” would organize and train a schola and “someone” would learn how to play and maintain a pipe organ and “someone” would do all this for no salary, which seems to be the current pay rate in Catholic dioceses–there would be no need for simple hymns sung by volunteer cantors and accompanied by volunteer pianists and guitarists who aren’t even Catholic.

You get what you pay for.

 

[TheMc]

If enough Catholics stepped up and agreed to learn to cantor at Mass, there would be no need for non-Catholic cantors.
The answer to the OP’s query is: “The reason there are Protestant and non-Christian cantors is that they are available.”

That’s no excuse. It would be better to have a Mass with no music than a Mass where the rubrics are not followed. Non-christian cantors? That’s appalling!

Of if “someone” would learn Gregorian chant and “someone” would learn Palestrina and other polyphonic ancient music, and “someone” would learn the Propers, and “someone” would organize and train a decent schola and someone would learn how to play and maintain a pipe organ–there would be no need for simple hymns sung by volunteer cantors and accompanied by volunteer pianists and guitarists

It seems that there just aren’t enough Catholic “someones” to do a good Mass these days.

While people may be open to it in your parish, my experience is that even if there were 100 “someones” are willing to do this kind of music, in most parishes, people still resist and make things difficult, and whine and cry about it.

Anyways: Anyone who can sing can learn missa jubilate deo. There’s really no excuse not to know it. Start by getting everyone in your parish singing that (it may take a year, but it will happen), then you can move on on other, better, harder things.

Even in the GIRM, it says that congregations should know how to chant the ordinary in latin. Can your parish sing the ordinary in latin? Can they chant the creed in latin? (GIRM 41)

 

[TrueLight]

That’s no excuse. It would be better to have a Mass with no music than a Mass where the rubrics are not followed.

While people may be open to it in your parish, my experience is that even if there were 100 “someones” are willing to do this kind of music, in most parishes, people still resist and make things difficult, and whine and cry about it.

Anyways: Anyone who can sing can learn missa jubilate deo. There’s really no excuse not to know it. Start by getting everyone in your parish singing that (it may take a year, but it will happen), then you can move on on other, better, harder things. Even in the GIRM, it says that congregations should know how to chant the ordinary in latin. Can your parish sing the ordinary in latin? Can they chant the creed in latin? (GIRM 41)

Credo III? That melody is all over the place.

I’ve sung all my life, and I’m just beginning to learn it. I need the music.

The last solemn mass I attended, they gave out a little booklet with the order of the mass, as it was a special EF solemn liturgy which was packed, and they knew a lot of the liturgy would have been foreign to the folks. So this guy next to me did not have the booklet, so I shared with him while we chanted the Credo. There were some parts I was confident about and their were some parts that were shaky indeed, lol.

 

[TBolt1000T]

I’m confused about the difference between a cantor and a psalmist. Most of the time in our parish, at the OF Mass, the same cantor who leads the chanting is also the one who leads the psalm, although every now and then, a different cantor will lead the psalm. This is always done from up in the choir loft.

 

[ProVobis]

Anyways: Anyone who can sing can learn missa jubilate deo. There’s really no excuse not to know it. Start by getting everyone in your parish singing that (it may take a year, but it will happen), then you can move on on other, better, harder things.

Even in the GIRM, it says that congregations should know how to chant the ordinary in latin. Can your parish sing the ordinary in latin? Can they chant the creed in latin? (GIRM 41)

Indeed. Pope Paul issued the Jubilate Deo (a minimum repoirte of Latin chants) and ordered that they may be made available for every parish free of charge. That means no copyright infringements and no royalty fees. What could be better?

 

[Trader]

In my parish, which is usually very correct in all liturgical matters, one of the cantors for the Easter vigil Mass (we had two, since we had all of the readings) was a Protestant. I believe she is a paid cantor, and is either Episcopalian or Lutheran (not that it matters, the point is that she’s not Catholic).

My question is, is it OK to have a Protestant cantor? It doesn’t feel right to me, but everything is usually so correct at my parish, that I find it hard to believe we would be breaking the rules in this matter. (Yes, I realize how lucky I am.)

If it’s OK, that’s great. Not being the Pope, I am not infallible. If it’s not, could you give me some official references?

Thanks!

–Jen

A lot of this is a matter of pastoral judgement. I have sung in the choir of a cathedral parish since 1984 and we have always been told we are supposed to be an example for the whole diocese and have to follow all the rules. Our three bishops in that time have all insisted that liturgical celebrations are done well.

We have several non-Catholic members. One is a 70 plus year old woman who drove 20 miles through a snow storm to warm up with us an hour before Mass. She sang with us again today for the ordination of 11 permanent deacons. She attends Mass a lot more than many Catholics.

Another was a choirmaster at a Lutheran church who sang with us for many years. He always had to leave immediately after Mass to conduct his own choir.

We recently had a man who joined the choir and was a cantor as part of his return to the Church while his marriage to a Protestant music minister was being regularized. We were all thrilled when he was able to receive Communion again during Holy Week.

Years ago we had an outstanding cantor who was told she could no longer be a cantor, but could remain in the choir when she married outside the Church. She also had to give up her position teaching in a Catholic school.

We have always had a Catholic director, but had several Lutheran organists.

The bottom line is about whether there is a danger of scandal. You are welcome to pray with us even if you are not in full communion with us.

 

[revert_jen]

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Let me clarify a couple of points:

First, the thing that seemed wrong to me was that a non-Catholic was singing half of the psalms that occur between the readings at the Easter vigil Mass. She was at the same lectern where the readings and the Gospel are read, not the stand that is off to the side, where the hymns are led. (My understanding is that the psalms are always to be proclaimed from the place where the other readings are proclaimed.)

Second, I’m not concerned about choir members and organists. There are freqently Protestant choir members. Although I don’t really understand why, from their standpoint, Protestants would want to be members of a Catholic choir (at least if they are unpaid), I’m quite glad they’re with us. And around here, the organist is always paid (even if it may not be much), and it’s much better to have a Protestant organist than no organist. Anyway, it’s not the same as singing the psalms, which are readings even if they are sung.

I don’t think that there would be anything in the psalms that would be contrary to the beliefs of a Protestant. It just feels wrong to me to have a non-Catholic leading them.

That’s why I’m asking the question. I’m not so much interested in what happens, as what is actually allowed. Lots of things happen that aren’t allowed.

The woman sang very well. She did a great job, and she seems to be a very nice woman. (I don’t know her that well.) But there are several Catholics in the choir who would have been willing and able to do a very creditable job of leading the psalms if it were necessary in order to follow the rules. (Just to make things clear, I am not one of those people. This isn’t that kind of situation at all. )

If it isn’t supposed to happen, then I would have a very discreet word with the music director. If it doesn’t matter and my “is this correct?” radar is oversensitive, I would be happy to be reassured of that. But it sounds from Mark’s post as if this is not so. If there is anything more specific linking (or of course decoupling) the role of psalmist with the role of lector and indicating that the rules that apply to one apply to the other, that would be helpful. I hadn’t heard of the distinction between cantor and psalmist before, and in my head (not always well connected to the outside world) “psalmist” refers to King David.

Thanks!

–Jen