Protestant-Catholic dialogue on Mary, Saints, Church authority, etc

[SPOKENWORD]

<Hi Lora, Scripture mentions Angels and Saints only in the throne room that I know of. The 4 creatures are Angels who do nothing but surround the center of the throne room and praise God forevever.Boy,are the special, I guess that job is taken? God Bless>

Where exactly does it specify that only Angels and Saints are allowed in the throne room?
Anyways - there are 2 points we are dancing around here.

First and foremost…Revelations clearly describes heavenly saints who are aware of earthly events. You continue to avoid this reality.
You want to evade this issue by discussing HOW the saints came to know about earthly events (which leads to our 2nd, less relevant point we are discussing concerning angels and wings).
What I’m saying is WHY DOES IT MATTER HOW THEY CAME TO LEARN OF EARTHLY EVENTS?
All that matters is they do, indeed, know about events on earth.
They are portrayed (specifically the martyrs) as appealing to God concerning these events and God responding to their concerns.
This is prayer.

As for the whole wing thing…what I was trying to show you is that your understanding of angels and wings does not come from scripture.
Do you know of any scriptural verses where angels are portrayed as having wings?
We have come to having a common perception of angels of having wings because of christian art throughout the centuries.
I was trying to show you that not all of your beliefs are coming straight from the bible.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

Hi Lora,As you can see its our understanding of scripture that creates a problem. Saints in heaven know of certain circumstances because the Holy Angels revealed it to them ,not because they themselves hear what is going on this earth. As far as Angels having wings Michance showed you written scripture to prove it. I hope things have been clarified. God Bless.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

edwinG:

Hi TTM
Do you support this from Saint Faustina
of Mary
You are the model and star of my life.
Now Jesus is the model and star of my life and I wish to conform my self to Him. Who do you choose?
May Christ grow in you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Dear edwinG;

Your question sets up a false dichotomy. One does not turn away from God by choosing to honor Mary. The question is not whether Catholics “choose” Mary or Jesus, but why Mary is honored in the way that she is. Well, the Fourth Commandment tells us to honor our mother and our father (Ex. 20:1-17; Dt. 5:1-21) and at his crucifiction Christ told “the disciple that he loved” (and the Church) to behold his Mother, referring to Mary. (John 19:27) So, as Catholics we believe that we are to honor Mary not just as the Mother of God, but as our own mother.

Your comment presumes that by honoring Mary we are somehow taking something away from the worship of God. But Catholics believe that is not the case. We believe that honoring His Mother only increases the glory and honor of God who would bestow such blessings on His people.

Indeed, Catholics believe that Mary alone is to be given special honor among the saints, but this honor is NOT worship. Worship is directed to God alone. So, you see the answer to your original question is not Jesus or Mary, but BOTH. Catholics choose to honor Mary in a very special way, as our mother, and we worship God and God alone. There is no conflict as your question suggests.

Another matter, we believe that Mary’s life is an example of perfect discipleship. She alone said yes to God in all things. She is therefore, as St. Faustina declares, a perfect model of discipleship. This, of course, takes nothing away from her Son - who is God, and who made the one perfect sacrifice for us all.

Peace be with you,

 

[mayra_hart]

evangelicals try to avoid giving mary the title of mother of god, while at the same time they affirm that jesus was god from his conception. they attempt to say that mary was the mother only of the human nature of jesus. in avoiding the use of this title for mary, evangelicals have inadvertently opened the door to those who question the union of the divine and the human natures in the god- man. most of the time i personally pray to god, but sometimes when my son is sick i pray to mary, i feel that she is like my spiritual mother, an i know she will understand an she will intercede for me in that time of need. santa maria madre de dios …

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi Lora,As you can see its our understanding of scripture that creates a problem. Saints in heaven know of certain circumstances because the Holy Angels revealed it to them ,not because they themselves hear what is going on this earth. As far as Angels having wings Michance showed you written scripture to prove it. I hope things have been clarified. God Bless.>

Michance posted a descripton of Cherubim that had escaped me.
The verse in Revelation still describes a creature -it does not specifically state it is an angel - although it is clear many assume they are angels.
I simply think it is possible that it can be exactky what is stated - a creature.

You have no way of knowing exactly how the heavenly souls become aware of earthly events.
You have no scriptural basis stating they can ONLY receive information through the angels.
You believe it is so because you have preconceived ideas you don’t want to let go of.

But that still is not the central point that you continue to avoid.
The main point is that they are, indeed, aware of earthly events.
HOW THEY BECOME AWARE IS NOT THE POINT!!!

They ARE aware - and they pray about them!!
And God responds to their prayers!! It’s in the Book of Revelation.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are INCAPABLE of intercession!

 

[Benadam]

In regards of this comment Robert made in reference to Edwin’s view about Catholicism:

Your comment presumes that by honoring Mary we are somehow taking something away from the worship of God.

The idea that it’s possible to make an idol out of Mary is valid. On the other hand to deny the possibility that it’s not, after it is demonstrated that it possibly is not, is more akin to idolatry.

 

[mlchance]

Lorarose:

M[l]chance posted a descripton of Cherubim that had escaped me. The verse in Revelation still describes a creature -it does not specifically state it is an angel - although it is clear many assume they are angels. I simply think it is possible that it can be exactky what is stated - a creature.

Angels are creatures. All living beings except God Himself are creatures.

Lorarose:

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are INCAPABLE of intercession!

Quite right. You really should stop wasting your time responding to people like SPOKENWORD. He knows full well what Catholic is about the intercession of saints as well as why that teaching is what it is, but will nevertheless persist in mischaracterizing said doctrine. Prejudice does not yield to reason.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

<Hi Lora,As you can see its our understanding of scripture that creates a problem. Saints in heaven know of certain circumstances because the Holy Angels revealed it to them ,not because they themselves hear what is going on this earth. As far as Angels having wings Michance showed you written scripture to prove it. I hope things have been clarified. God Bless.>

Michance posted a descripton of Cherubim that had escaped me.
The verse in Revelation still describes a creature -it does not specifically state it is an angel - although it is clear many assume they are angels.
I simply think it is possible that it can be exactky what is stated - a creature.

You have no way of knowing exactly how the heavenly souls become aware of earthly events.
You have no scriptural basis stating they can ONLY receive information through the angels.
You believe it is so because you have preconceived ideas you don’t want to let go of.

But that still is not the central point that you continue to avoid.
The main point is that they are, indeed, aware of earthly events.
HOW THEY BECOME AWARE IS NOT THE POINT!!!

They ARE aware - and they pray about them!!
And God responds to their prayers!! It’s in the Book of Revelation.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are INCAPABLE of intercession!

Hi Lora, I see you still fail to understand what I said.So I will let it go because this is just going in circles. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

mlchance:

Angels are creatures. All living beings except God Himself are creatures.

Quite right. You really should stop wasting your time responding to people like SPOKENWORD. He knows full well what Catholic is about the intercession of saints as well as why that teaching is what it is, but will nevertheless persist in mischaracterizing said doctrine. Prejudice does not yield to reason.

– Mark L. Chance.

Hi Mark,So I am mischaracterizing? Interesting? So when we get to heaven we are creators. I thought we are saints. Maybe Ill be given a set of wings? God Bless.

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi Lora, I see you still fail to understand what I said.So I will let it go because this is just going in circles. God Bless>

Fail to understand - how?

At first it seemed to me that you felt heavenly souls were not capable of being aware of earthly events.

Then you switched gears and seemed to feel it was important HOW they became aware of earthly events.

My response is that the HOW is not the central point.
The fact that they DO know about earthly events and DO pray about them is the whole point.

If you wish to continue to evade that central point - that is up to you.

You have no scriptural basis for your belief that heavenly souls are INCAPABLE of intercession!

 

[Lorarose]

I’m aware angels are created beings. I really don’t have a horse in this race.
I simply have seen interpretations that consider the symbolism of these passages.

for example…from my Little Rock study guide on Revelation…
(p.41)

" ‘four living creatures’ : This image comes directly from Ezekiel 1, although John modifies it somewhat. To understand the meaning of thes four creatures we need to piece together the individual parts described by John and understand what they mean, and put them together as a whole (which is the way to understanding many of the images in Revelation).
‘covered with eyes’ : This image brings us back again to the vision of Zecheriah involving the lampstand which was discussed in reference to chapter 1. Zecheriah 4:10b says, ‘These seven facets are the eyes of the Lord that range over the whole earth.’ The phrase ‘covered with eyes’ indicates omniscience…
4:7 The four creatures may be said to represent:
lion = wild animals
bull = domesticated animals
human = humans
eagle = birds and fish
Therefore, the four creatures represent all living creatures, the four great classes of living things.

4:8 ‘six wings’: This recalls Isaiah’s vision of heaven (Isa 6) and the six-winged creatures he saw around God’s throne. Ezekiel called the four living creatures in his vision “cherubim”…these creatures do not merely symbolize the four classes of living creatures, but are also the all-seeing guardian protectors of all living creatures.
The four creatures also summarize the praises of all living things before God… The first line of their song is that of the seraphim in Isaiah 6:3; the second line is drawn from the prologue to Revelation.

4:10 The four creatures are in an inner circle around the throne and represent all living creatures. The twenty-four elders are in an outer circle that specifically represents the people of God. The four seraphim lead to the worship of God’s people…"​

<Quite right. You really should stop wasting your time responding to people like SPOKENWORD. He knows full well what Catholic is about the intercession of saints as well as why that teaching is what it is, but will nevertheless persist in mischaracterizing said doctrine. Prejudice does not yield to reason.>

I’m glad you can see the point I’m trying to make.
I’m not sure if it’s a waste of time or not. I don’t really think my posts will change minds - I just like to point out when I see an unbiblical belief coming from a group of people who claim all their beliefs are in the bible.
There is no place in the bible that states heavenly souls cannot pray - in fact we see them praying in Revelation.
I place this unbiblical belief that heavenly souls cannot intercede in the same category as the altar call and the sinner’s prayer -among others.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

I In the Book of Revelation I see Saints praising and worshipping God. I see Saints presenting earthly prayers collected before the throne. I dont see any Saint presenting thier own prayers before the throne. The only interceeding I see the Heavenly Saints doing is collecting earthly prayers. To say that Saints are praying for us in my oppinion is incorrect. God Bless.

 

[Lorarose]

You were clearly shown how, in Revelation, the martyrs appealed to God concerning their persecutors.
This is not praise and worship. This is prayer. This is a conversation with God, in which God clearly responded to.
He listened to their concerns and responded to them with an answer and a gift. This is prayer.

That you have an “opinion” that this is incorrect is not enough.
You have not produced any scriptural evidence to contradict the catholic position.
You oppose the catholic position based on exactly what scriptural evidence? Is it based on more than your personal opinion?
Where does it state in scripture that heavenly souls are incapable of intercessory prayer?

 

[Benadam]

SPOKENWORD:

I In the Book of Revelation I see Saints praising and worshipping God. I see Saints presenting earthly prayers collected before the throne. I dont see any Saint presenting thier own prayers before the throne. The only interceeding I see the Heavenly Saints doing is collecting earthly prayers. To say that Saints are praying for us in my oppinion is incorrect. God Bless.

The saints offering prayers are in heaven I’ll post the reference in revelations from the NIV.

Rev. ch 4 v 1-2 1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

God Bless you to friend.

 

[Benadam]

SPOKENWORD:

I In the Book of Revelation I see Saints praising and worshipping God. I see Saints presenting earthly prayers collected before the throne. I dont see any Saint presenting thier own prayers before the throne. The only interceeding I see the Heavenly Saints doing is collecting earthly prayers. To say that Saints are praying for us in my oppinion is incorrect. God Bless.

Aren’t the souls under the altar asking the Lord" how much longer must we wait?" The word ‘pray’ means to ask, for instance as it is used in the past “pray tell”.

The vision John is seeing is ‘in’ heaven. This is very good scriptural evidence that souls in heaven are interceding for justice to be served on earth.

God Bless you too friend.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Benadam:

Aren’t the souls under the altar asking the Lord" how much longer must we wait?" The word ‘pray’ means to ask, for instance as it is used in the past “pray tell”.

The vision John is seeing is ‘in’ heaven. This is very good scriptural evidence that souls in heaven are interceding for justice to be served on earth.

God Bless you too friend.

Hi Ben ,I do disagree with your assumption. Praying for revenge?. Revenge is mine says the Lord. God Bless