Protestant/Catholic stance on Mary

[LilyM]

So hypothetically, I could give Mary the same level of respect I do now and still be Catholic?

You have to assent to Catholic doctrine and dogma about her - that she is the Mother of God, perpetually virgin, Immaculately conceived (ie free from original sin and personal sin from the moment of her conception) and that she was assumed (through God’s power, not her own) into heaven at the end of her life.

I don’t think there are any other Marian doctrines that are required belief - I’m sure someone will set me straight if there are. Apart from that you certainly need never utter a single prayer to her or offer any other sort of sign of respect to her apart from the mentions of her contained in the Mass.

Of course, since Christ commanded to ‘love one another as I have loved you’ and since he obeyed perfectly the commandment to honour one’s mother, I’d be hard put to justify ignoring her in this way - he certainly didn’t.

 

[JohnPaul0]

Hmm, that depends. How much do you respect her now?

It sounds to me that Becka respects Mary to a very reasonable amount considering her religious background.

Becka, there was a rather well-known Presbyterian woman who decided to become Catholic. At the end, she had three problems: 1) Mary, 2) Mary, and 3) Mary. So, it is very normal and natural for someone like you who is just trying to understand Catholic teaching to have these kinds of questions and reservations.

 

[becka01101]

Hmm… have you ever been to a Catholic church? Obviously not. Or you’d know that we don’t place more emphasis on Mary.

And I’m being accused of making assumptions?

Yes I have, many times. My entire extended family are Catholics, Mass is very much a part of our family life.

PS- I know it wasn’t directed at me, but isn’t this post about making assumptions?

 

[Reedolo]

And I’m being accused of making assumptions?

Yes I have, many times. My entire extended family are Catholics, its very much a part of our family life.

Oh that comment wasn’t directed toward you… it was directed toward happygal. lol.

You seem to be a very reasonable, cool Protestant.

 

[becka01101]

You have to assent to Catholic doctrine and dogma about her - that she is the Mother of God, perpetually virgin, Immaculately conceived (ie free from original sin and personal sin from the moment of her conception) and that she was assumed (through God’s power, not her own) into heaven at the end of her life.

I don’t think there are any other Marian doctrines that are required belief - I’m sure someone will set me straight if there are. Apart from that you certainly need never utter a single prayer to her or offer any other sort of sign of respect to her apart from the mentions of her contained in the Mass.

Of course, since Christ commanded to ‘love one another as I have loved you’ and since he obeyed perfectly the commandment to honour one’s mother, I’d be hard put to justify ignoring her in this way - he certainly didn’t.

I wouldn’t advocate completely ignoring her, but I have to admit I would be uncomfortable spending time honoring or venerating her when I could be doing the same for Jesus.

 

[becka01101]

Oh that comment wasn’t directed toward you… it was directed toward happygal. lol.

You seem to be a very reasonable, cool Protestant.

Now Reed, play nice with the other Protestants.

 

[Reedolo]

I wouldn’t advocate completely ignoring her, but I have to admit I would be uncomfortable spending time honoring or venerating her when I could be doing the same for Jesus.

But see… we think it makes Jesus happy when we honor his mother.

I mean, that’s how a covenant works… we honor those whom God honors, we love those whom he loves. If God honors someone, or exalts them, then we should do the same. The Saints are honored by God and exalted in the sense that they have been made perfect… they are free from all sin and all attachment to sin, they have been Redeemed and purified, and they are pure and perfect the way God wants them to be, and the way God wants all of us to be. It is our goal to be like them.

Protestants like to say “why should i honor Mary when I should be honoring Jesus”… but to this day no one has ever showed me how honoring Mary or any other Saint takes away from Christ. I just don’t see any logic there, how can honoring a Saint take away from Jesus Christ? If it weren’t for Christ, they woudln’t be Saints.

God loves them, and He’s proud of the work that He’s done in them. His Mother most especially.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I wouldn’t advocate completely ignoring her, but I have to admit I would be uncomfortable spending time honoring or venerating her when I could be doing the same for Jesus.

Do you spend time in your life with others besides Jesus now? Think about it, how do you justify spending time with anyone else besides Jesus?

Do you celebrate the life of a loved one when they have a birthday, by honoring them with gifts and a cake? Wouldn’t that time be more appropriately spent with Jesus? Doesn’t this type of honor belong to Him alone?

How about your friends? Do you tell them about your problems and concerns, perhaps ask them to pray for you? Shouldn’t you more appropriately just address all this to Jesus yourself and cut out all the wasted time discussing and asking help from others?

See, this is the same logic and it just doesn’t make sense. Christ never asked us to* exclude* anyone like this. He never commanded us to live our Christianity in this kind of isolationism. And we don’t. Until it comes to what the Protestant community decides is inappropriate.

And by the way, the Reformers didn’t feel this way. Luther and Calvin were both devoted to the Blessed Virgin. This kind of unhealthy fear has not always been a part of Christianity, and it has robbed vast numbers of Christians from their rightful heritage, a richness they will never experience in their lifetime on earth. It is a tragedy.

 

[becka01101]

But see… we think it makes Jesus happy when we honor his mother.

I mean, that’s how a covenant works… we honor those whom God honors, we love those whom he loves. If God honors someone, or exalts them, then we should do the same. The Saints are honored by God and exalted in the sense that they have been made perfect… they are free from all sin and all attachment to sin, they have been Redeemed and purified, and they are pure and perfect the way God wants them to be, and the way God wants all of us to be. It is our goal to be like them.

Protestants like to say “why should i honor Mary when I should be honoring Jesus”… but to this day no one has ever showed me how honoring Mary or any other Saint takes away from Christ. I just don’t see any logic there, how can honoring a Saint take away from Jesus Christ? If it weren’t for Christ, they woudln’t be Saints.

God loves them, and He’s proud of the work that He’s done in them. His Mother most especially.

Look at in a time format. If I’m going to spend an hour every day in prayer, why would I spend 20 minutes in prayer with Mary, 20 minutes in prayer with the saints, and 20 minutes in prayer with Jesus when I could spend the entire 60 minutes with Jesus?

I feel that I can honor Mary and the saints by learning more about them, and emulating their attitudes and behaviors in my daily life. We do that with many people that we encounter in our lives, I don’t think the way I treat Mary and the saints is that much different than what the church teaches. But maybe I’m wrong?

 

[Rawb]

I wouldn’t advocate completely ignoring her, but I have to admit I would be uncomfortable spending time honoring or venerating her when I could be doing the same for Jesus.

Well see, we see it as sort of honoring Jesus in a way. If you help someone’s elderly mother cross the road because her son is your best friend, then aren’t you in a way being respectful and honoring her son as well?

As for why Mary was made completely clean (why she had to be that way) is because things that are set aside for use of The Lord are not to be contaminated or used in a common or everyday sort of way. Mary was without sin because she is the Ark of the New Covenant and therefor must be sacred and clean (look at how specific The Father was about the old Ark). The old Ark carried The Staff that was alive (it sprouted leaves and such, Aaron’s staff I believe ((the living Vine)) ) and the Ten Commandments (Jesus is the new Law) and some Manna (The Bread of Life). This also applies to why we believe she didn’t have other children - the things for the Lord are not to be used in an everyday manner.

Hope I said all that right!

 

[Rawb]

I don’t think the way I treat Mary and the saints is that much different than what the church teaches. But maybe I’m wrong?

No, not that different, except we also talk with them (which you might do, you didn’t say).

But see you have to also remember that when you pray with the saints, you ask them to pray. You’re increasing the glory and prayers that go to God. Plus, the saints (Mary included of course) can pray “24/7” (that time doesn’t apply but you know what I mean) which means that even while you can’t pray because you’re driving or working or doing something that means you can’t be in heartfelt prayer, the saints you’ve asked to pray for you can.

I hope you don’t feel gained up as we all give answers! God Bless.

 

[JohnPaul0]

Look at in a time format. If I’m going to spend an hour every day in prayer, why would I spend 20 minutes in prayer with Mary, 20 minutes in prayer with the saints, and 20 minutes in prayer with Jesus when I could spend the entire 60 minutes with Jesus?

I feel that I can honor Mary and the saints by learning more about them, and emulating their attitudes and behaviors in my daily life. We do that with many people that we encounter in our lives, I don’t think the way I treat Mary and the saints is that much different than what the church teaches. But maybe I’m wrong?

Becka,

It really doesn’t work that way. You can pray however you want. You can pray all to Jesus if you want. Honestly, for myself I don’t pray the Rosary much myself. I tend to enjoy it more in a group setting. As for the saints, it’s nice as the year goes by to remember the great saints, but that is also personal preference.

 

[becka01101]

Do you spend time in your life with others besides Jesus now? Think about it, how do you justify spending time with anyone else besides Jesus?

Do you celebrate the life of a loved one when they have a birthday, by honoring them with gifts and a cake? Wouldn’t that time be more appropriately spent with Jesus? Doesn’t this type of honor belong to Him alone?

What I’m saying is that in the time that is spent in honor and devotion- not the exclusion of all other activities.

Another difference is that I’m not praying to my family or friends.

I’m just saying that looking at time spent, why wouldn’t I go directly to Jesus?

 

[Reedolo]

Look at in a time format. If I’m going to spend an hour every day in prayer, why would I spend 20 minutes in prayer with Mary, 20 minutes in prayer with the saints, and 20 minutes in prayer with Jesus when I could spend the entire 60 minutes with Jesus?

I feel that I can honor Mary and the saints by learning more about them, and emulating their attitudes and behaviors in my daily life. We do that with many people that we encounter in our lives, I don’t think the way I treat Mary and the saints is that much different than what the church teaches. But maybe I’m wrong?

No, you’ve actually got the right idea somewhat. The best way to honor Mary and the Saints is by emulating them in your daily life. Following their example.

The same thing goes with Christ… the best way to honor Christ is to emulate Him and His teachings. Lip service doesn’t mean much to Christ, He wants us to live our faith.

As for the time thing. Imagine your boyfriend (I’m assuming you’re a girl) comes over to your parents house for dinner. But the whole time he only talks to you, and he ignores your parents completely. Would that make you happy? No, of course it woudln’t. You would want him to pay attention to your parents and get along well with your parents.

It’s the same with Jesus and Mary. We as Christians are all one body in Christ, we are all connected whether we be on earth or in Heaven. Mary is our family, the Saints are our family. Jesus doesn’t want us to ignore them and only pay attention to Him. He wants us to be a family. If all of our love were attention were directed to Him and to no one else, that’s not much of a family. Our love for Mary and the Saints and the devotion we give to them is a reflection of our love for Christ, and it has its root in our love for Christ. Christian love isn’t about just loving Jesus and no one else.

Our love for Christ isn’t measured by how long we pray to Him. What if I prayed to Jesus and no one else for twenty minutes a day? Is that bad? Would that mean I don’t love him as much as someone who prayed to him for thirty minutes a day?

What if I prayed to Jesus for twenty minutes, and to St. Justin Martyr for ten minutes, and Mary for twenty minutes. Does that mean I don’t love Jesus as much as St. Justin and Mary, or that I don’t love Jesus as much as if I just prayed to Jesus for twenty minutes, and ended it right there?

It just doesn’t make sense to me to judge according to how long we spend in prayer with someone. Our love for Jesus is made known by how we live our lives, and how we reflect and show what Christ has done in us and through us.

 

[believers]

Becka,

It really doesn’t work that way. You can pray however you want. You can pray all to Jesus if you want. Honestly, for myself I don’t pray the Rosary much myself. I tend to enjoy it more in a group setting. As for the saints, it’s nice as the year goes by to remember the great saints, but that is also personal preference.

Actually, you can’t just pray the way you want. You have to pray the way Jesus said to pray.

Mat 6:9
“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”

Which was exactly the way Mary prayed in Acts 1:14
“These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”

Let’s all do what Mary, the mother of Jesus, did and pray to God in Jesus name. Amen

 

[Reedolo]

Actually, you can’t just pray the way you want. You have to pray the way Jesus said to pray.

Mat 6:9
“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”

Which was exactly the way Mary prayed in Acts 1:14
“These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”

Let’s all do what Mary, the mother of Jesus, did and pray to God in Jesus name. Amen

Yes, let’s all do that. We must all pray to God.

But that doesn’t mean we can’t also ask Mary or the Saints to pray for us as well.

 

[becka01101]

Actually, you can’t just pray the way you want. You have to pray the way Jesus said to pray.

Mat 6:9
“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”

So we’re limited to only praying the Lord’s Prayer? If you read that passage literally, thats what it says.

Let’s all do what Mary, the mother of Jesus, did and pray to God in Jesus name. Amen

She prayed to God, not to herself or others.

PS- this is not written confrontationally, I think it might kind of come off like that. Its hard to convey tone in text!

 

[runandsew]

I was once in Mass during the Eucharist, when, while people were still in line to recieve the Eucharist, someone walked up to a statue of Mary, lit a candle and began to pray.
I have no problem with praying to Mary, but was the the time to do it?
I am not sure if they had already recieved the Eucharist, or had just come in off the street to pray at that time.

 

[believers]

So we’re limited to only praying the Lord’s Prayer? If you read that passage literally, thats what it says.

She prayed to God, not to herself or others.

PS- this is not written confrontationally, I think it might kind of come off like that. Its hard to convey tone in text!

That’s not what the verse says. It says to pray in the MANNER. He didn’t say to repeat the prayer. In other words, follow that format.

Just don’t do what it says in Mat 6:7

“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

 

[believers]

Yes, let’s all do that. We must all pray to God.

But that doesn’t mean we can’t also ask Mary or the Saints to pray for us as well.

Well, praying to Mary is your choice. Unless the scriptures say to pray to Mary, I’ll just take her advice while she was here on earth

John 2:5
“His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he [Jesus] saith unto you, do [it].”