Protestant-Catholic wedding

[msieger]

Hi-

This is certain not a new question - but I seem to have a bit of a twist on it.

Can we have a ceremony with Catholic and a protestant celebrants?

My fiance went through RCIA, so she is Catholic. However, we want to have a protestant pastor be a part of the ceremony.

Further - if we go the route of a ceremony with no Mass, then what “rites” are we obligated to use? Our end goal is to have the ceremony recognized by the Catholic Church and to receive the sacrament (officially) - but again, we have a strong desire to use both celebrants in our ceremony.

Thanks for any insight.

Matt

 

[1ke]

Can we have a ceremony with Catholic and a protestant celebrants?

No. If you are married in the Catholic Church, the priest or deacon would be the celebrant. A non-Catholic clergy member could not have such a role, they could read a reading or some other part of the liturgy open to the non-ordained.

My fiance went through RCIA, so she is Catholic. However, we want to have a protestant pastor be a part of the ceremony.

They could be invited to do a reading, the Prayers of the Faithful, etc. They could not be a celebrant or act in any clerical role.

Further - if we go the route of a ceremony with no Mass, then what “rites” are we obligated to use?

You would use the Marriage Rite outside the Mass. If you are both Catholic, the norm is to have the Marriage Rite within the Nuptial Mass. Why would you want only the Marriage Rite?

we have a strong desire to use both celebrants in our ceremony.

That cannot be done.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi-

This is certain not a new question - but I seem to have a bit of a twist on it.

Can we have a ceremony with Catholic and a protestant celebrants?

My fiance went through RCIA, so she is Catholic. However, we want to have a protestant pastor be a part of the ceremony.

He could be an usher … (jk - kind of. )

I don’t understand - since both of you are Catholic, why would it matter if your wedding is recognized officially in his religion?

Also, it would be very weird for him, from his point of view, to preside over a wedding that has nothing to do with his religion, and with no chance of you guys ever being fully active members of his church.

He could be a guest, of course, and you could find an appropriate role for him to play at the reception.

 

[SeekerJen]

Is the Protestant pastor a relative or close family friend? If DH’s grandfather (Congregationalist minister) had been alive when we got married, we would have had a similar dilemma. The most obvious and liturgically sound option would be to have the Protestant pastor act as reader: the non-Gospel scriptures, the Prayers of the Faithful. I wonder if he would also be able to read a prayer or blessing after Communion, in the place where the end of Mass announcements would normally be read?

 

[benedictgal]

Is the Protestant pastor a relative or close family friend? If DH’s grandfather (Congregationalist minister) had been alive when we got married, we would have had a similar dilemma. The most obvious and liturgically sound option would be to have the Protestant pastor act as reader: the non-Gospel scriptures, the Prayers of the Faithful. I wonder if he would also be able to read a prayer or blessing after Communion, in the place where the end of Mass announcements would normally be read?

Non-Catholics are not permitted to exercise a litiurgical ministry in the Mass. This means that they cannot proclaim the readings nor read the General Intercessions. He could, perhaps, say a few words after the Post-Communion prayer.

If you recall, when Pope Benedict XVI visited Turkey, neither he nor Patriarch Bartholomew I could “concelebrate” each other’s liturgies. The Holy Father and the Patriarch were “guests” of each other’s services, but, neither concelebrated. The same prinicple applies to what you are trying to do in your case.

If both the OP and his fiance are Catholic, why would they need to have a Protestant minister? Is this minister a relative of the fiance?

 

[1ke]

Non-Catholics are not permitted to exercise a litiurgical ministry in the Mass. This means that they cannot proclaim the readings nor read the General Intercessions.

Actually, it’s not prohibited by law.

 

[benedictgal]

Hi-

This is certain not a new question - but I seem to have a bit of a twist on it.

Can we have a ceremony with Catholic and a protestant celebrants?

My fiance went through RCIA, so she is Catholic. However, we want to have a protestant pastor be a part of the ceremony.

Further - if we go the route of a ceremony with no Mass, then what “rites” are we obligated to use? Our end goal is to have the ceremony recognized by the Catholic Church and to receive the sacrament (officially) - but again, we have a strong desire to use both celebrants in our ceremony.

Thanks for any insight.

Matt

One other important detail that perhaps may be missing is the fact that while you mention that your fiance went through the RCIA process and is now Catholic, you do not mention whether or not you are Catholic, as well. If you are not, then I can understand your wanting to have your pastor (if that is the case) witness the marriage.

Nonetheless, if both of you are Catholic, then, the Protestant minister cannot have a liturgical function as this is a Catholic liturgy. You may ask him if he would like to join the priest in saying the blessing over the food at the reception, if you wish.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, it’s not prohibited by law.

At our Cathedral, a Protestant relative wanted to proclaim one of the readings; however, the rector said no. In another instance, during the White Mass for the medical community, one of the hospital administrators, a Baptist, was going to be asked to read; however, upon checking this with the diocesan director for divine worship (who is a priest with a PhD in liturgy), the director said “no.” Furthermore, this is not an ecunemical service, this is the Church’s liturgy.

Why confuse things and convolute them by having the protestant minister serve some liturgical function? As I said in my previous post, if Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew I didn’t concelebrate each other’s liturgies, then the same principle applies to what the OP is trying to do. Mind you, Benedict considers the Orthodox as a Sister Church, while he uses Protestant ecclesial communities for the Protestants. Think about it.

 

[historyb]

Hi-

This is certain not a new question - but I seem to have a bit of a twist on it.

Can we have a ceremony with Catholic and a protestant celebrants?

My fiance went through RCIA, so she is Catholic. However, we want to have a protestant pastor be a part of the ceremony.

Further - if we go the route of a ceremony with no Mass, then what “rites” are we obligated to use? Our end goal is to have the ceremony recognized by the Catholic Church and to receive the sacrament (officially) - but again, we have a strong desire to use both celebrants in our ceremony.

Thanks for any insight.

Matt

Me and my wife had a similar dilemma. At the time I was not Catholic and She was so we got married by my friend who is a minister and 7 months later in the Church.

 

[SeekerJen]

Non-Catholics are not permitted to exercise a litiurgical ministry in the Mass. This means that they cannot proclaim the readings nor read the General Intercessions. He could, perhaps, say a few words after the Post-Communion prayer.

Huh, there’s my new tidbit of learning for today. I did not know that.

 

[benedictgal]

Huh, there’s my new tidbit of learning for today. I did not know that.

A lot of it stems from common sense (along with some phone calls to the liturgical gurus at the USCCB and EWTN.

Let’s put it this way. You can’t find it in the documents because the Council Fathers never conceived of the idea of having Protestants take on a liturgical role in the first place. When the documents say “Christian faithful”, like it does in Redemptionis Sacramentum, the Church is referring to Catholics. Furthermore, if you need to have received your First Holy Communion before you can be an altar server, and, receive all of your sacraments of initiation before you can serve as a lector or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion (as is the requirement in most dioceses), then, how can a Protestant validly serve some form of liturgical duty if he isn’t Catholic?

Any one is welcome to attend Mass. However, to allow Protestants to exercise some liturgical function within the confines of the Holy Sacrifice or the Nuptial liturgy (sans Mass) would imply a false unity that does not yet exist.

 

[1ke]

At our Cathedral, a Protestant relative wanted to proclaim one of the readings; however, the rector said no. In another instance, during the White Mass for the medical community, one of the hospital administrators, a Baptist, was going to be asked to read; however, upon checking this with the diocesan director for divine worship (who is a priest with a PhD in liturgy), the director said “no.” Furthermore, this is not an ecunemical service, this is the Church’s liturgy.

That may be the case, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is not prohibited by law.

As I said in my previous post, if Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew I didn’t concelebrate each other’s liturgies, then the same principle applies to what the OP is trying to do.

I disagree. Concelebration is not analogous to reading a non-Gospel reading.

 

[benedictgal]

That may be the case, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is not prohibited by law.

I disagree. Concelebration is not analogous to reading a non-Gospel reading.

That still does not mean that Rome has given this practice the green light. It does not make any sense to allow Protestants to serve some liturgical role when the Church has her requirements about who can do what.

 

[SeekerJen]

Then I guess my only question would be: why does the Church permit valid and sacramental marriages between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians? The spouses are the ones conferring the sacrament on each other, thus a non-Catholic is participating in a sacrament of the Church, and if it is in the context of a Mass, a liturgical role.

 

[1ke]

That still does not mean that Rome has given this practice the green light. It does not make any sense to allow Protestants to serve some liturgical role when the Church has her requirements about who can do what.

It is not a “liturgical role.” A *reader *is not an instituted position. A *lector *is, and would need to meet the requirements of Canon 230-- which requires that they be MEN.

 

[benedictgal]

Then I guess my only question would be: why does the Church permit valid and sacramental marriages between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians? The spouses are the ones conferring the sacrament on each other, thus a non-Catholic is participating in a sacrament of the Church, and if it is in the context of a Mass, a liturgical role.

I think that you are missing the point of my post. The non-Catholic spouse participates in the sacrament, but, he or she is taking on a sacramental role, not a liturgical one.

For example, when our diocese was erected and we had a Mass marking the occasion and the installation of our bishop, Protestant ministers participated in the procession; however, they did not exercise a liturgical function (proclaming the readings, preaching the homily, reading the General Intercessions, distributing Holy Communion). They had a special place of honor, but, that was the extent of their “participation.” Ditto for Papal Masses when the Orthodox show up. Ditto for our clergy when they attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. They are present, but they do not participate as far as exercising a ministerial function is concerned.

 

[Seatuck]

Apparently it is up to the local Ordinary to decide.

Specifically regarding the celebration of a mixed marriage, the document states that a Protestant minister, with permission from the local Ordinary, may participate in this ceremony by reading scripture, preaching, and blessing the couple (no. 158).

cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=221

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

 

[dandn5000]

Apparently it is up to the local Ordinary to decide.
[snip]

I just wonder if this would be allowed considering the circumstances: both parties are Catholic but they want to include a Protestant minister. Would the same rules apply, considering that that writing was intended for mixed marriages?

 

[benedictgal]

I just wonder if this would be allowed considering the circumstances: both parties are Catholic but they want to include a Protestant minister. Would the same rules apply, considering that that writing was intended for mixed marriages?

That is why my dander got up. Inasmuch as I realize that what www.cuf.org states (and what the CDWDS cites) are only applicable to mixed marriages, there is something rather troubling about two Catholics wanting and insisting that a Protestant minister be involved.

The OP didn’t give us the full story as to why they are so adamant. Perhaps he may be a relative or, maybe the OP isn’t Catholic. Something just doesn’t sound right.

In previous threads, such as the one wherein the OP was participating in a “self-commnion” service, many of us suspected that this was a bogus issue. Since the OP hasn’t returned to this thread and gave us very little information, I am inclined to suspect that this, too, is a bogus issue. I hope that I am wrong, but, it sure seems like it.

By the way, I spoke to the liturgy gurus at EWTN and, while they concur with the mixed marriage provision (regarding a Protestant minister’s participation), they said it was only applicable to Nuptial liturgies of that type. Under normal circumstances, however, Protestants are not allowed to proclaim the readings or exercise a minesterial function at Catholic liturgies. It gives the impression of a false ecunemism that does not exist. They, too, have never heard of an instance where two Catholics want a Protestant Minister to take on a role (liturgical) at a Nuptial liturgy.

 

[THurifer2]

Interesting.

When John Paul II died My parish priet (canon lawyer) had a “memorial Mass” for John Paul II. He invited Two speakers…one a jewish man who went to Jagiellonian University with JP II and the local methodist pastor…both gave their talks prior to the homily. This was a MASS not an ecumenical prayer service.

Considering the posts it seems as though these two should have made their “homilies” after the closing prayer.

FYI my priest celebrated private Mass twice with JPII and he said that when he entered the private chapel with the other priests JP II was already there kneeling in front of the altar. He said that it appeared that JPII went through considerable anguish during private prayer…he said audible moaning at times not unlike the agony in the garden…he said it was amazing to witness.