Protestant challenged me about Catholic Doctrine on Priesthood

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Doing my occasional conversing with protestants at work and one of them challenged me on the doctrine of Priesthood and celibacy in the Catholic Church.

He used The verses in 1Timothy 1-5: “1This saying is trustworthy - whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. 2. Therefore a bishop must be irreproachable married only once, temperate, self controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. 4. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; 5 for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?”

Now, I know in the early Church some of the clergy was married and had families. But I also know there are other sources in scripture that encourages celibacy. I just couldn’t think of them at the time this conversation went because it caught me off guard. I am trying my best to learn scripture and defend the Faith against the heresies presented by protestantism, but as a cradle Catholic, I have not been well taught in scripture. Any help is welcomed. Thx:)
 
The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry?” But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:10-12)

I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. (1 Corinthians 7:6-8)

My advice is to lighten up on the “Heresies against Catholicism” jargon. These are human beings, not enemies.

The first thing we have to do, before we defend the faith, is to be their friends. They will know we are Christians by our love. The second thing we have to do is to exhibit the authentic peace and joy which comes only from knowing Christ and having a deep prayer life. If we don’t do that then we are hypocrites.

If we do that then we will draw people to us like moths to a flame. They will ask us how we stay so peaceful and calm when everyone is freaking out and how we stay so happy in spite of suffering. They will want to be like us, and then we can say, “I know Christ, and I have the sacraments.”

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
My advice is to lighten up on the “Heresies against Catholicism” jargon. These are human beings, not enemies.

The first thing we have to do, before we defend the faith, is to be their friends. They will know we are Christians by our love. The second thing we have to do is to exhibit the authentic peace and joy which comes only from knowing Christ and having a deep prayer life. If we don’t do that then we are hypocrites.

If we do that then we will draw people to us like moths to a flame. They will ask us how we stay so peaceful and calm when everyone is freaking out and how we stay so happy in spite of suffering. They will want to be like us, and then we can say, “I know Christ, and I have the sacraments.”
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Well, in today’s postmodern context, material from the early Church will sound startling in its polemical tone. The Fathers had no qualms describing the beliefs of their theological opponents as “heresies”. Methinks we should be honest, too, when the situation calls for it. Many Protestant doctrines are, after all, false.
 
Just a couple quick references for you to have on hand:

What Does the Bible say about Celibacy?

“To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion” (1Cor 7:8-9)

“Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband” (1Cor 7:27-34).

"If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry” (Mt 19:10)

“Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (Mt 19:11–12)

In addition to Church Militant’s blog (excellent by the way) Catholic Answers also has a superb tract on this written by Karl Keating:
catholic.com/tracts/celibacy-and-the-priesthood
 
Thanks for the replies! Good stuff there. I will keep for future reference
 
MJCamp said:
Doing my occasional conversing with protestants at work and one of them challenged me on the doctrine of Priesthood and celibacy in the Catholic Church.

He used The verses in 1Timothy 1-5: “1This saying is trustworthy - whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. 2. Therefore a bishop must be irreproachable married only once, temperate, self controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. 4. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; 5 for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?”

Now, I know in the early Church some of the clergy was married and had families. But I also know there are other sources in scripture that encourages celibacy. I just couldn’t think of them at the time this conversation went because it caught me off guard. I am trying my best to learn scripture and defend the Faith against the heresies presented by protestantism, but as a cradle Catholic, I have not been well taught in scripture. Any help is welcomed. Thx:)
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In the same passage that you mentioned, a little further down, St. Paul reminds Timothy that “the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth”. The continuity of instruction dictates that among the other qualifications you mentioned, that a candidate must be adherent to the Apostolic faith. The issue with protestantism, is that it only follow portions of the faith and freely accept and reject aspects of the Apostolic faith based upon their own authority to interpret the Bible. So if a bishop needs follow all of the criteria in 2 Tim 3, then he must also be in conformity to the Church and Her teachings. A Protestant cannot use this passage to justify their sense of pastoral appointment since they have already disqualified themselves by rejecting the Faith.

Sometimes it’s not as important to be able to spew a variety of verses at one another as it is to remember that the Bible is a product of the Church and not the other way around.
 
Seems like the same attacks or quotes are used from all different denominations. I believe they are taught this in order to justify their faith. It is hard not to offend them and get through because of the resistance built up from anti-catholicism.
 
MJCamp said:
Seems like the same attacks or quotes are used from all different denominations. I believe they are taught this in order to justify their faith. It is hard not to offend them and get through because of the resistance built up from anti-catholicism.
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I agree with that. I think at the end of the day, it always goes back to the Early Church Fathers. The real question is not how do I interpret what the Bible says, but rather, how did the disciples of the Apostles interpret the instruction given them and how did they teach the next generation. For issues like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, there really are no questions. The ECF are invaluable to us Catholics. They are consistent examples of what was being taught in the Early Church. Yeah, that Church from the Bible.🙂 But too often, some just prefer their own way. We must remember to ask the Blessed Virgin for help for her wayward children.
 
TimothyH said:
My advice is to lighten up on the “Heresies against Catholicism” jargon. These are human beings, not enemies.
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I disagree on the first point. Is Protestantism a heresy? St. Thomas defines heresy as “a species of unbelief, belonging to those who profess the Christian faith, but corrupt its dogmas.” Sounds like Protestantism to me! And if something is heresy, it is against Catholicism by definition.

The second question is whether Protestants are rightly be called heretics. My understanding is that there is a distinction made between a material heretic and a formal heretic. I think at least the former term must be applied to Protestants. However St. Augustine says:

“But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.”

This certainly covers a lot of Protestants, even though I know from first-hand experience that there are many to whom this charitable criterion would not apply. Now, I agree that it is not a good idea to run around calling every Protestant a heretic to there face, but there is no need to jump on people for calling a heresy for what it is.
 
Actually, priestly celibacy is not doctrine. It is Church discipline. There is a difference. There was a time when the Church did allow married men to be ordained to the priesthood.
Instead of getting into arguments, or a historical discussion, you might ask him why he is so focused on this one issue. I’m not well versed on the specifics as to when and why things changed; in other words I don’t have the sources.Even today, ordained Episcopalian priests who convert to Catholicism can be Catholic priests.

*I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the the thing so the world, how she may please her husband. * [1Cor 7:32-34]

St. Paul is talking about the freedom celibacy gives the person, like the man who devotes his life to priestly ministry.
 
DebChris said:
Actually, priestly celibacy is not doctrine. It is Church discipline. There is a difference. There was a time when the Church did allow married men to be ordained to the priesthood.
Instead of getting into arguments, or a historical discussion, you might ask him why he is so focused on this one issue. I’m not well versed on the specifics as to when and why things changed; in other words I don’t have the sources.Even today, ordained Episcopalian priests who convert to Catholicism can be Catholic priests.

*I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the the thing so the world, how she may please her husband. * [1Cor 7:32-34]

St. Paul is talking about the freedom celibacy gives the person, like the man who devotes his life to priestly ministry.
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From what I understand, the Church never allowed someone who already was a priest to get married. They would have to have been married before they became a priest. Similar to how it is in the Eastern Catholic rites.
 
bzkoss236 said:
From what I understand, the Church never allowed someone who already was a priest to get married. They would have to have been married before they became a priest. Similar to how it is in the Eastern Catholic rites.
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I am sure there would be consistency through time between the Western Church and the Eastern Church in this matter. When visiting a Greek Orthodox Church, I also learned that married priests were limited to the parish level in order for them to have the necessary time to spend with their families. As a man rises through the hierarchy, so does his responsibility in terms of ministry.
 
bzkoss236 said:
From what I understand, the Church never allowed someone who already was a priest to get married. They would have to have been married before they became a priest. Similar to how it is in the Eastern Catholic rites.
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Yes…as i understand…the ordinand has to be married before ordinatin. Once ordained they cannot marry.

and their bishops come only from those who are celibate…a tradition from the earliest of times in the Church.
 
DebChris said:
Actually, priestly celibacy is not doctrine. It is Church discipline. There is a difference. There was a time when the Church did allow married men to be ordained to the priesthood.
Instead of getting into arguments, or a historical discussion, you might ask him why he is so focused on this one issue. I’m not well versed on the specifics as to when and why things changed; in other words I don’t have the sources.Even today, ordained Episcopalian priests who convert to Catholicism can be Catholic priests.
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Well, as you know there is more than this one issue. It’s pretty much the same issues that all protestants seem to have or been taught by their piers. Mary, statues, authority of the magisterium, the whole Pope thing, calling Priests “Father”, idea of purgatory, praying to the dead. Funny thing is, I can find scripture backing the Catholic teaching and in turn they can twist scripture to fit their ideas so we get nowhere really. Myself, I would rather trust in 2000 years of study and traditions than believe what has been handed down less than 500 years from a reformer
 
You might want to go on the offensive as well. Ask him to explain how Jude could have said that there were some in the church who were committing the sin of Korah (usurpation of the authority of the ministerial priesthood), if there was no ministerial priesthood in the Church.
 
neophyte said:
You might want to go on the offensive as well. Ask him to explain how Jude could have said that there were some in the church who were committing the sin of Korah (usurpation of the authority of the ministerial priesthood), if there was no ministerial priesthood in the Church.
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I would disagree with this position. Here’s why.

There are three priesthoods mentioned in the NT, the Levitical priesthood, the priesthood of all believers and the most important is the everlasting priesthood of Christ. The Levitical priesthood was superseded by Christ’s because He offered the better sacrifice of Himself. The once for all perfect sacrifice that never has to be offered again.

There is no mention or example of a ministerial priesthood as defined by your position in NT scripture pertaining to Christian believers. The purpose of a priest is to offer sacrifices to mediate for another. This has been accomplished by Christ Himself. He alone is the mediator of the new covenant in His blood. We go directly through Him to the throne of grace boldly. Heb 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Korah’s rebellion was against the leadership of Moses and Aaron. It was not against the Levitical priesthood.

This is the NT model for church leadership Eph 4:11-13And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: And in 1 Tim 3:1-13 elders and deacons.

Could you please show in the NT scripture a ministerial priesthood other than Christ offering Himself or the priesthood of all believers offering themselves?
 
MJCamp said:
Well, as you know there is more than this one issue. It’s pretty much the same issues that all protestants seem to have or been taught by their piers. Mary, statues, authority of the magisterium, the whole Pope thing, calling Priests “Father”, idea of purgatory, praying to the dead. Funny thing is, I can find scripture backing the Catholic teaching and in turn they can twist scripture to fit their ideas so we get nowhere really. Myself, I would rather trust in 2000 years of study and traditions than believe what has been handed down less than 500 years from a reformer
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I ran across this article…it is very informative…holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/rayryland/thegift.asp

The Gift: A Married Priest Looks at Celibacy
by Fr. Ray Ryland
“You’re a married priest? I didn’t know we had married priests. I think the Church should let all her priests marry.”

Words like these have greeted me frequently since my ordination to the priesthood in 1983, with dispensation from the rule of celibacy. I always assure those who favor optional celibacy that both my wife and I strongly support the Church’s discipline of priestly celibacy. While I’m deeply grateful that the Church has made an exception for certain former Protestant clergy like me, the exception is clearly a compromise. The priesthood and marriage are both full-time vocations. The fact is, no one can do complete justice to both simultaneously.
 
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